RF-4B confusion

[MRF]

Hi there :).

So, here is the deal - I fell in love with UMSC late RF-4Bs, as pictured below here  https://ibb.co/rmZcC2b  or here https://ibb.co/gvKn6sD and https://ibb.co/8KR1Y8C - unfortunately BuNo of first one is blurred but seems to be 151975, second clearly 153108. They both pictured with longer ACs, so they must be after so called SURE upgrade.
My initial plan was to implement Hase's RF-4B nose section into Tamiya's F-4B, or to make 3D model of the one and print it, but after some research I ended up in confusion.
According to MCARA website, last twelve recce Phantoms was built for The Corps with thick wing of F-4J/RF-4C. These supposed to be BuNos 153114, 153115, and 157342/157351. Last three of those (49, 50,51) was built with rounded camera housing. But if You check basic edition of Hase RF-4B (PT31) it appears, that that they want You to build BuNo 157347 with long cans, which is wrong for the aircraft with paint scheme of that period, but also the kit seems to share the same fuselage halves sprue with RF-4E kit (PT30) and that seems to be problematic as well - the other paint scheme of PT31 set is black BuNo 157351 - the last one built RF-4B with thick wing and rounded nose bulge, again according to MCARA. So it would be logical to assume it's Hase's mistake again, because mentioned list of BuNos indicates clearly that 347 had angular bulge, while 351 had rounded one, and that makes Hase kits improper to be used to build RF-4 other than last three ones. And of course You can't use Tamiya kit because of the thin wing of F-4B in this case. 

Is that all correct in general?

That leads to neccesity of creating conversion kit as 3D model/print, but to be honest I couldn't find any pictures and clearly show difference between angular bulge of RF-4C and angular of most of RF-4Bs. 
Also, can anyone help with identifying what type of wing both pictured Phantoms have, and how to distinguish thick and thin wings? 

Edited September 10, 2024 by MRF

[jonbryon]

I'm not sure I follow your questions.

 

I've made 157347. In PT31, Hasegawa definitely tell you to use the wrong engines, but the correct engines are in the box.

 

I think the nose parts are correct for 157347 as indicated. Two styles are included, which means I think you can make any of the last 12 RF-4Bs, but maybe I misunderstood you?

 

You are correct about the thick wing.

 

Jon

Edited September 10, 2024 by jonbryon

[MRF]

49 minutes ago, jonbryon said:

I'm not sure I follow your questions.

 

I've made 157347. In PT31, Hasegawa definitely tell you to use the wrong engines, but the correct engines are in the box.

 

I think the nose parts are correct for 157347 as indicated. Two styles are included, which means I think you can make any of the last 12 RF-4Bs, but maybe I misunderstood you?

 

You are correct about the thick wing.

 

Jon

For some reason I missed the fact Hase included both styles of camera cover/fairing pieces. That explains everything, and in the meantime I figured out that basically the shape of the nose section is the same for all RF models, but only camera fairing differs, and I was not aware of this. I thought it's more than that.
As for the wings - so both aircraft depicted in posted links have thin version? I am not exactly F-4 expert and I can't tell the difference between thin and thick wing at the first glance.

Edited September 10, 2024 by MRF

[JEN722]

It was only the last 10 (TEN) RF-4Bs that had the bulged wings (all BuNo 1573xx airframes). This has been confirmed many years ago, but the wrong number '12' keeps gettting repeated.

 

Jens

[Quixote74]

There is a widely-repeated error in some otherwise reliable sources that quotes the number of "thick wing" RF-4Bs as 12 - the correct total is 10, which matches up with the production blocks (157342- 157351).  Essentially the late production airframes were attrition replacements, well after the fighter production line shifted from B to J tooling, so the last 10 are effectively "RF-4J" standard, though never referred to as such.

 

[Edited] The "flat" (early) vs. "rounded" (late) camera nose is a matter of change in door style, so at least off the production line only the last three RF-4Bs had the late version (157349, 157350, and 157351). The simplest way to spot an early door is that it has a small bulged fairing on the centerline, basically an elongated prism shape, that can usually be seen in profile or from below (vs. late fairings which are smooth in this area).

 

Edited September 10, 2024 by Quixote74
Correction late v. early camera doors

[MRF]

Thanks Guys, now it's all clear to me.

[Niels]

1 hour ago, Quixote74 said:

The "rounded" (early) vs. "flat" (late) camera nose is a matter of change in door style, so at least off the production line only the last three RF-4Bs had the late version (157349, 157350, and 157351). 

 

I thought the rounded was the latter produced and the angular one the early once? Do you know if this applies to USAF RF-4C's too? 

 

[Quixote74]

20 minutes ago, Niels said:

I thought the rounded was the latter produced and the angular one the early once? Do you know if this applies to USAF RF-4C's too? 

 

I was writing on the fly and accidentally switched the early v. late descriptions. Angled nose is the original style, rounded is the later version. 

 

Same should apply for the RF-4C (and RF-4E) noses, i.e. the earlier production models have the flat camera door. Never seen any definitive documentation about when (by serial or chronologically) the change happened for RF-4C/E production, but I believe the early style was more common.

[Niels]

Thanks @Quixote74, got me startled for a moment there 😆

I had a look through my reference photos found online, and nothing definitive but the rounded nose appears from FY65 and onwards. But there is still angular noses inbetween, so guess this remains TBC 🤔

Edited September 10, 2024 by Niels

[jonbryon]

32 minutes ago, Illu said:

 

 

The F4H-1/F-4B and RF-4B were the only Phantom variants that had the original skinny wing and main wheels.  All other variants had the bulged wing and wider wheel/tire.

 

F-4N...?

 

(And the original F-4G if we're being pedantic.)

 

Jon

Edited September 10, 2024 by jonbryon

[habu2]

I don't know about everyone else but early Me was more angular, and later Me is definitely more rounded....  

[MRF]

Utlimately, one thing remain unclear though 😉 - how to distinguish thin and thick wing? I spent a bit of time looking at B and J model pictures, and I guess age must have made me blind, because I unable to tell the difference - don't get me wrong, I don't argue with the existence of different types of F-4 wings. I just would like learn how to easily recognise which is which.
This skill may be useful, since there was a little bit of mess about wings among the types. 

Edit:
Is it about those bulges on J and other later models wings?

Edited September 11, 2024 by MRF

[Kurt H.]

26 minutes ago, MRF said:

Utlimately, one thing remain unclear though 😉 - how to distinguish thin and thick wing? I spent a bit of time looking at B and J model pictures, and I guess age must have made me blind, because I unable to tell the difference - don't get me wrong, I don't argue with the existence of different types of F-4 wings. I just would like learn how to easily recognise which is which.
This skill may be useful, since there was a little bit of mess about wings among the types. 

Edit:
Is it about those bulges on J and other later models wings?

 

Correct, there are bulges starting with the F-4C to accommodate the wider tires used by the Airforce, which were also used on the J.

[MRF]

Thx!

[Drifterdon]

19 hours ago, habu2 said:

I don't know about everyone else but early Me was more angular, and later Me is definitely more rounded....  

Amen Brother!   

[mawz]

6 hours ago, Illu said:

The wing bulge isn’t really easy to see unless you’re looking for it.  In any event, the only F-4s that didn’t have it are F-4Bs and RF-4Bs (except the last ten produced).  ALL other F-4 variants that left the factory had the bulged wing and wide main wheel/tire assembly.

 

 

And the 45 F4H-1F/F-4A’s were thin wing

[Jon Krol]

Just to add, someone mentioned the F-4N. There were no original manufactured N's. They were all updated from B models, so thin wing.