"Food For Thought"

[Guest Guest]

Hi there:

I posted this in the 'Beware Tony Qu????" discussion below, but I thought that it may as well be out in the open for all to read and comment on. I've also added a few things that may interest some of you. Sorry if this is against the normal rules here on ARC. I am new to this.

I may as well become a member of ARC afterall! As I said yesteray, I usually only wander in and observe, look and watch, and not participate.

It's really tough to legally do anything to these people without formal documentation. Unfortunately, in private (not business) cases like this, email and elctronic files are not considered "formal documentation", and in most cases not admissible in most courts, especially here in NA. They can be introduced by your lawyer, but if the other guy has a lawyer worth his/her salt, they will veto it straight away. Why? There is no proof that the accused indivdual actually wrote/sent the material or infact entered into a formal, binding, and legal contract...even if you can prove that the messages came from his/her computer as most people think. Without actual signatures on formal contracts, it all boils down to heresay and "he said she said" kind of stuff (now FAX's with signatures (key words here are "with signatures") are different, as are emails sent via Snail Mail with signatures). As I am sure most of you know, even "verbal" contracts are often refuted as heresay in may courts (not all).

Oh please don't get me wrong, it's not impossible to get a bad trader into a court of law. Sadly, it will cost you a great deal of time, energy, and most of all...money. ANYBODY can be taken to court if you want to spend a huge fortune in legal costs (we are talking MASSIVE amounts of money...far far more then you have lost in your initial trade). You can sue for legal costs but you have to win in order for those costs to be awarded. IMHO, the odds of winning a case like this is very slim. Remember, your lawyer can't be one of those cheap ambulance chasers you see on TV. They need to specialise in these types of fraud cases, and therefore will cost you. These bad traders know this.

If you are dealing with an international individual, then it's even more of a logistical nightmare! If you want to personally go over to the individuals country and launch a suit against them then that's fine. It will still cost you huge chunks of money and even more time. You could try filing a suit in your own country, but that will only work if the accused actually comes over to defend themself. If they don't and loose, then so long as they don't set foot on your home soil, they can live free and clear everywhere else. What about extradition? It's hard enough to get someone extradited for a capitol offense like murder, so I'd bet it's darn near impossible for something like a bad model trader to be forcibly sent to answer for his/her crimes in another country. Remember, these are private individuals here, not businesses bound by laws and the ever loving people we call accountants (nothing against acountants, my sister is one :D ). Businesses (for the most part) must have records for all of their business transactions incase of audits (at least here in NA and I assume elsewhere as well). Private individuals don't need to keep any such records. Now if this was a distributor or formal business, that's a different story. Most countires abide by international trade laws and don't look kindly on businesses that are doing illegal transactions. But we are talking private individuals here (I assume). Unless they are caught red-handed with your materials, and you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they are your materials, then it's going to be tough.

I think it's wishful thinking to believe that anything can be done through the courts. The logistics alone would be mind boggling. Hey I wish there was something that could be easily done and nail these people for good. However, it's probably best to cut your losses, spread the word like what has been done so far, and get these people out of the loop (that is until they assume another name and nail someone else). The fact of the matter is the people mentioned here are not the first to stiff people and they won't be the last.

I think the best bet is to do your research on the person you are trading with. Ask around before you send a thing. Basically see if anyone out there can provide a reference. Perhaps even getting together to start your own "reference lists" that you can send to traders is a start. But that is still no gaurantee. The fact remains that once you send your kit(s) out in the mail, you run the risk of not seeing them or your return trades ever.

The other thing we have to watch out for is witch hunts and false claims for bad traders. Don't get me wrong, I am all for a bad trader list ;) . But we must insure that an individual has NOT been falsely accused :( . That would ruin that persons reputation here and elsewhere forever. The ability to abuse such a list is easy and probably very tempting to some. It would be easy to simply say so-and-so is a "bad trader" :unsure: . I think it takes more then one or even two individuals to back up a claim before a person can be publicly branded a "bad trder" (such as the case with this fellow from Singapore...he is obviously a "Bad Trader" based on the numbers of people he/she has stiffed ). We are not privy to the initial trade agreements between individuals, and we can easily accuse someone when they did nothing wrong. For example, a person has second thoughts about a trade after the trade has been agreed to and either backs out, or wants their kits back again. Has this ever happend to you? It has to me. Now for me, it was worked out in the end. But what if that person was told by the other person that "no, we agreed to a trade and I am keeping the kits you sent me and you keep mine I sent you". What if the person with second thoughts deems this to be a "bad trade" and publicly announces that here on ARC or elsewhere. What if the person being asked to cancel the trade deems that to be a "bad trade". Well obviously the accused person will defend themself here and answer to the charges, but would you trade with them after such a claim? All I am saying is let's not get crazy here with accusing people of "bad trading". Also, watch yourself when posting a persons home address and telephone number online without that persons permission (written with signature is best). That 'could' land you if more trouble then you'd like them to be in (many states here in the US are really cracking down on this stuff).

I hope that everything works out for these people who have been wronged. I also hope that people here continue to trade amongst each other as 99% of the trading here and elsewhere is done by people with honor. Don't let these rotten individuals get us down or turn against one another! Level heads prevail.

Please, don't get me wrong here. I am not taking sides. I hate bad traders and wish they'd get what's comming to them. All I am trying to do is to get people to think. Consider it, food for thought. Good luck to all.

My two cents,

Ryan :)