jrallman Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 Hey all, in researching to do a pair of atom bomb droppers, I have found some conflicting photos. Both planes appear to have had each of the markings in the photos attached at some time around the dropping of the atomic bombs, but I haven't been able t find out which tail markings were in place at the actual time of those missions. Any help would be appreciated. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrallman Posted June 6, 2005 Author Share Posted June 6, 2005 (edited) This is a littl hard to see, but its a wartime photo. I'll upload a clearer modern photo of the same markings too. Edited June 6, 2005 by jrallman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrallman Posted June 6, 2005 Author Share Posted June 6, 2005 Here's the modern photo of the R tail marking Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 Hi there, On her mission to drop the atomic bomb, the "Enola Gay" carried the false "Circle R" tail markings of the 6th Bomb Group (this is what the National Air and Space Museum has her painted up in and what many photo's of her show). Very shortly after her return from the mission (very shortly!), she was re-painted up in the 509th Composite Group "Circle Arrow" tail markings. HTH Regards, Don Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 Here is a web site that I used a while back while doing some B-29 research: http://www.444thbg.org/enolagayphotos.htm I may as well just used it instead of typing out what I could remember in my post above ! Oh well . Again, I HTH. Regards, Don :) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
P-38 guy Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 Here's a pic of my original war time photo that I had signed by Tibbets about 2 years ago. Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 Hi there, I also found this quote: "Prior to Hiroshima mission, the aircraft was unnamed, bearing the number 82. Tibbets decided it should have a name for the historic mission and had “Enola Gay†painted on the nose, naming the airplane after his mother, Enola Gay Tibbets. On the assumption that the Japanese had noticed B-29s with 509th markings dropping special practice bombs, Tibbets ordered a disguise for the Enola Gay and escort aircraft on the Hiroshima mission. He had a big black letter R (the insignia of another unit on Tinian, the 313th Bomb Wing) painted on the tail, replacing the 509th’s distinctive arrow in a circle. Also for security, Tibbets changed the call sign from “Victor†to “Dimples.†The Enola Gay flew the mission as “Dimples Eight Two.†http://www.afa.org/new_root/enolagay/airplane.asp Regards, Don Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrallman Posted June 6, 2005 Author Share Posted June 6, 2005 Thanks for the great info on the Enola Gay guys, I think I will do her with the false Circle R marking since I want to do both birds on their atomic missions. I'm assuming then that Bock's Car was similarly disguised in the Circle R for her mission? I have found photos of Bock's Car with both markings as well. I have also found out that Bock's Car had no nose markings at all at the time of her atomic mission. bland but accurate. thanks again Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrallman Posted June 6, 2005 Author Share Posted June 6, 2005 Oh, one other thing, does that color on the top of the Enloa Gay's tail look red, yellow, or some orange mix? I can't quite tell what its supposed to be Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 Oh, one other thing, does that color on the top of the Enloa Gay's tail look red, yellow, or some orange mix? I can't quite tell what its supposed to be Hi there, Considering the 509th Composite Group had a crest/squadron patch that was a yellow circle with a black arrow and red lightning bolt going through the arrow, I would say the color on the tail was red. However, if you are modeling the "Enola Gay" as she appeared during her atomic bomb drop, you wouldn't have a red tail tip as she wore the false "Circle R" markings and the tail had no color on the tip (see the pic you posted of her in the Air and Space Museum). HTH Regards, Don Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrallman Posted June 7, 2005 Author Share Posted June 7, 2005 ah, right you are. just nice shiny NMF Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WW2ace Posted June 7, 2005 Share Posted June 7, 2005 Having done the research for Bockscar (correct spelling), I can assure you it is not easy to sort out. Bockscar carried an N in a triangle (I forget which actual squadron this was, it was a spurious marking to conceal the 509 CG's mission). It carried no nose art until after the mission. It carried a red band around the rear fuselage which identified it as the form-up plane for the mission. This band was removed almost immediately, probably when the nose art was quickly added for the post-mission "glamour" shots. Some sources show a red fin tip, but I believe this is incorrect. The box art of the Academy kit gets it right except for the nose art. The instructions show the incorrect red fin tip. The Super Scale sheet omits the red stripe. Both show 5 mission markings, 3 "pumpkin" missions in black, the atomic mission in red (white on Super Scale), then another pumpkin. It seems Bockscar dropped an additional pumpkin after the atomic mission, but I have never been able to confirm this. The mission marks were the silhouette of a fat man and several photos exist showing another one after the atomic mission, which I believe was red. The bomb itself was light orange primer with the joints of the 3 main sections sprayed black after assembly. The fins were covered with grafitti of many crewmen. Bockscar was one of the only planes of the 509 BG without colorful nose art. Several sources which claim to depict it on mission day show "Nagasaki" on the nose art (Nagasaki was not the primary target that day) as well as the atomic mission marking and one additional pumpkin. The only unique markings on mission day were N-in-triangle, red stripe, and number 77. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrallman Posted June 7, 2005 Author Share Posted June 7, 2005 well this is just a whole new can of worms isnt it! I, like you, have discovered that there was no nose art for the atomic mission, but I had not seen a triangle N tail marking. I have found photos of botha circle R and circle arrow tail marking for bockscar (sorry about the mis-spell previously). I also hadn't found any photos showing a fuse band of any color, though bockscar was a much less documented plane than the enola gay. this may be a stretch, but do you have any photos i could use to base my markings on? the triangle N, the fuse band, and the pumpkins would be great to see so I get it right. not sure if I will be able to put the pumpkins on, since im doing this in 1/144 scale for this build, but id love to have that option. thanks for the great insight and research! Heres the bockscar with the circle arrow. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrallman Posted June 7, 2005 Author Share Posted June 7, 2005 that photo is post-mission since there is nose art. The photo several posts up that is very small with a hard to see circle R was captioned as bockscar as well, though identifiers are difficult to see there. Here is a picture of the crew for the atomic mission, with clearly no nose art behind them. However, there is also no 77 or pumpkins. Wondering if this is accurate for the nose during the mission as well? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrallman Posted June 7, 2005 Author Share Posted June 7, 2005 oh, i found a photo of the mission marks, but again, post-atomic with the nose art. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WW2ace Posted June 7, 2005 Share Posted June 7, 2005 The photo with the crew in front appears to be accurate for the mission. It looks like the "77" under the nose glazing may have been added after the mission. The red stripe followed the panel lines visible in the previous photo, between the bomb bay doors and the paneled-over waist window, just slightly overlapping the window. It seems the red stripe was quickly removed, nose art added, small 77 added under the nose. Within a few days, the N was removed and replaced with the arrow-in-circle of the 509th. The nose art always shows 5 mission marks, with the atomic mission being the 4th. This leads me to believe that there was one more "pumpkin" mission after Nagasaki, probably 2 days later as Bockscar emergency landed on Okinawa and had to be ferried back to Tinian and was unlikely to have been ready the next day. I have never found any conclusive evidence for this mission, but the atomic mission is always shown as second to last. The current museum scheme seems to be sort of a parade scheme for the general public, who would have been confused by the formation stripe and spurious squadron markings. The 509th had some of the finest nose art anywhere, and Bockscar was very plain. So the scheme apparently represents what the public THOUGHT the plane SHOULD have looked like for the mission. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WW2ace Posted June 7, 2005 Share Posted June 7, 2005 The photo with the crew in front appears to be accurate for the mission. It looks like the "77" under the nose glazing may have been added after the mission. The red stripe followed the panel lines visible in the previous photo, between the bomb bay doors and the paneled-over waist window, just slightly overlapping the window. It seems the red stripe was quickly removed, nose art added, small 77 added under the nose. Within a few days, the N was removed and replaced with the arrow-in-circle of the 509th. The nose art always shows 5 mission marks, with the atomic mission being the 4th. This leads me to believe that there was one more "pumpkin" mission after Nagasaki, probably 2 days later as Bockscar emergency landed on Okinawa and had to be ferried back to Tinian and was unlikely to have been ready the next day. I have never found any conclusive evidence for this mission, but the atomic mission is always shown as second to last. The current museum scheme seems to be sort of a parade scheme for the general public, who would have been confused by the formation stripe and spurious squadron markings. The 509th had some of the finest nose art anywhere, and Bockscar was very plain. So the scheme apparently represents what the public THOUGHT the plane SHOULD have looked like for the mission. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrallman Posted June 7, 2005 Author Share Posted June 7, 2005 Excelent! Since I want to do this plane as it looked at mission time, I will omit any nose art, add the red stripe, and use the triangle N false tail marking. I don't suppose you or anyone else has a photo of bockscar, or any b-29 for that matter, with the triangle N tail? I'll most likely have to make the decal myself because, though I haven't looked at it yet, I'm sure the minicraft bockscar decals are for the museum paint scheme and not the atomic mission disguise. Thanks again for your help here, the Enloa Gay is pretty well documented it seems, but I had trouble finding info on Bockscar. Now I wish I had better models to use for these builds. Maybe I'll do them both again in larger scales. :lol: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrallman Posted June 7, 2005 Author Share Posted June 7, 2005 PS> :lol: 100 posts Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Posted June 7, 2005 Share Posted June 7, 2005 ... I don't suppose you or anyone else has a photo of bockscar, or any b-29 for that matter, with the triangle N tail?... Here ya go, as ordered :lol: ! Just go down about four pictures on the web page below and there is a picture of an inflight B-29 with the "Triangle N" tail code: http://www.444thbg.org/677thbombsq.htm HTH Regards, Don :o Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrallman Posted June 7, 2005 Author Share Posted June 7, 2005 :lol: perfect. Even better is the one further down number 44-69988 bcause it is directly from the side and also shows the placement of the fuse band. sweet! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Posted June 7, 2005 Share Posted June 7, 2005 :lol: perfect. Even better is the one further down number 44-69988 bcause it is directly from the side and also shows the placement of the fuse band. sweet! Ask and you shall receive :o ! Good luck with the project, it sounds like it will be a good one. Regards, Don :) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrallman Posted June 7, 2005 Author Share Posted June 7, 2005 hope so. I usually build 1/48 so 1/144 will be a bit foreign to me. PLus I've read some not so good reviews of the minicraft 1/144 b-29s. I think I may do one OOB and try and spruce the other one up, just for some variation. I have an idea to do a little kitbashing and replace the wrong shape tail on the b-29 with a tail from a b-377. I'm prety sure these are the same size and shape tail yes? well, if not exact, its alot closer than what is molded in the kit. ill post progress pics in the PACAIR group build once i get started Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrallman Posted June 15, 2005 Author Share Posted June 15, 2005 Hey b-29 guys, thanks again for all the help. I've started my b-29s for the pacair group build and am posting updates there if anyone cares to take a gander. Thanks! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steve N Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 I have an idea to do a little kitbashing and replace the wrong shape tail on the b-29 with a tail from a b-377. Actually, the B-377 / C-97 / B-50 had a much taller tail (a believe to compensate for increased torque from from the bigger engines.) You'd have to cut it down a bit and reshape it a bit for a B-29. Steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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