Tomcat Fan Posted June 11, 2005 Share Posted June 11, 2005 Hello boys and Girls! Im haveing a big problem ( again ). I build tamiya wildcat 1/48. I have used Gunze acril colours for paint sheme, then future ( 2 layers ) decals then again future ( 1 layer ), then wash of watter colours, and then i sprayed the darn thing with Model Master Dullcote ( mixet with revell paint a mix ) and those darn acrils starts to crack under those layers of future and dullcote ... Why in the He*** is happening with that colours... any help why is this happening anh how to prevent that in the future! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DervishD Posted June 11, 2005 Share Posted June 11, 2005 Hi Tomcat Fan First, it's possible that the thing that is cracking up is the Future, not the paint, but in any case the problem is that the deeper layers (no matter if paint or Future) are not dry enough when you spray upper layers. If the paint is still wet or not cured enough when you spray the varnish, then the paint will still evaporate some solvent throught the varnish but at a different rate than the varnish is doing. So, you end up with two different drying/cureing speeds in two different layers, and that's what's causing the cracks. Give the paint some more time to dry, and if you spray more than one layer of Future, keep them fine and let enough dry time between layers (I've heard that 24 hours are enough to avoid cracking). Hope that helps :) Raúl Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat Fan Posted June 11, 2005 Author Share Posted June 11, 2005 Gunze colours where drying for more than a week / at least 7-8 days ) before first layer of future, than each day one layer of future, ( 3 days 2 layers + decals ) the forth day finishing layer of future, and after at least 5-7 days i did aply the dullcote! so i think corours where dry completely reason for cracing is somwhere else! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DervishD Posted June 12, 2005 Share Posted June 12, 2005 Hi Tomcat Fan Then it must be the future. I've never had crackings using Gunze or Tamiya, but I've had crackings due to the Future. Now if I use future, I leave it drying 24-28 hours as a minimum between layers. I hope you find the culprit :unsure: Raúl Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat Fan Posted June 12, 2005 Author Share Posted June 12, 2005 The problem is that everything was drying more than enought time! Future at least 2 days ( i didnt have time to work on model becouse of my job ) so that thing puzzles me completly! I have Dauntles waiting for dullcote and i dont want to ruin that model too! I think that maybee there is a problem with a paint tinner? If that thing somehave reacts wit acril future od gunze? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DocLum Posted June 12, 2005 Share Posted June 12, 2005 Have same problem with my current build. I found that when placing too thick a layer of Future will cause cracking in the finish. The finish looks almost like a cobblestone/marble finish. Doclum Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat Fan Posted June 12, 2005 Author Share Posted June 12, 2005 The finish looks almost like a cobblestone/marble finish Is there any way to fix this problem? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DocLum Posted June 12, 2005 Share Posted June 12, 2005 Well i think you got too many layers of Future on. You can trying cutting back ( sanding) the layer back or completely strip the paint job by using isopropyl alcohol ( I used windex). Unfortunately I stripped the whole paint job and started again. Doclum Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The Keeper Posted June 12, 2005 Share Posted June 12, 2005 The problem is that everything was drying more than enought time! Future at least 2 days How long was the acrylic paint drying before you applied the Future? I usually wait a week between coats. Additionally, Dullcote has laquer in it. It's usually safe but a thick coat can screw things up.hth Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat Fan Posted June 12, 2005 Author Share Posted June 12, 2005 The acrylic paint was drying more than a week each ( 2 colours paint sheme, at least 2 weeks before first coat of future! ) I was talking to one of my friends, whose brother is working as a asistent for chemical engineering in the collage in it probably the model master dullcote that is affecting the paint!... I think i will run one test. srap peace of plastic painted with acrylic paint future and one part finished with revell mat varnish and one part with Model master mat varnis. and i will see wath will happend! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
redruffensore Posted June 12, 2005 Share Posted June 12, 2005 (edited) The problem is both Gunze, Dullcoat, and Future are not compatible. Gunze is a cold paint, a flexible latex-based acrylic, not a true acrylic. Future is a true acrylic, it is like a hot paint, dries very rapidly and is not flexible. Latex and enamels both are cold paints that take time to cure, but are still flexible when cured. Lacquer (Dullcoat) and true acrylics are hot paints, they dry hard very quickly and have a finish that is hard as nails. The new MM Acryls and Polly Scale are true acrylics. Tamiya and Gunze are latex-based acrylics. Therefore, never used a hot paint over a cold paint, you will get cracking or wrinkles from the unflexible, quick drying hot paint reacting with the flexible cold paint. Caz Edited July 9, 2005 by redruffensore Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat Fan Posted June 12, 2005 Author Share Posted June 12, 2005 So there is only way for dullcote the model, to use gunze dullcote! and there will be no cracking? Thx on info about hot and cold paints! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
David Walker Posted June 12, 2005 Share Posted June 12, 2005 (edited) Very interesting information which I hadn't seen before. Thanks for posting it. Not that I've ever had any problem shooting future over enamels (assuming Model Master paints are true enamels) but it's interesting none the less. Edited June 12, 2005 by David Walker Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Yellowbelly Posted June 13, 2005 Share Posted June 13, 2005 All right, I know I've posted this at least five or six times over the years, mark this as the last.The problem is both Gunze, Dullcoat, and Future are not compatible. Gunze is a cold paint, a flexible latex-based acrylic, not a true acrylic. Future is a true acrylic, it is like a hot paint, dries very rapidly and is not flexible. Latex and enamels both are cold paints that take time to cure, but are still flexible when cured. Lacquer (Dullcoat) and true acrylics are hot paints, they dry hard very quickly and have a finish that is hard as nails. The new MM Acryls and Polly Scale are true acrylics. Tamiya and Gunze are latex-based acrylics. Therefore, never used a hot paint over a cold paint, you will get cracking or wrinkles from the unflexible, quick drying hot paint reacting with the fexible cold paint. Now, Steve can pin this or you people can go on forever shooting Future over flexible paints, be they enamel or acrylic. But this is my last input on this subject. Caz Wow - this is great stuff. So if I understand the hot and cold scenario: Hot never over cold!! Can cold go over hot? Here's the sequence I'm working on for my British FGR-2 Phantom: MM Primer MM Enamels (Dark Green, Dark Sea Grey, Light Grey) Future Decals Future Tamiya Smoke and oils for weathering MM Dull Coat Now am I to understand that I shouldn't use Tamiya Smoke if I'm going to finish with MM DullCoat? Yellowbelly Quote Link to post Share on other sites
redruffensore Posted June 13, 2005 Share Posted June 13, 2005 (edited) Yes, cold paint can be shot over hot paint without fear, but not visa-versa. Even though Polly Scale's Clear Gloss is a hot paint, it is not as hot as Future and the durability of the Polly Scale Gloss is heads above Future (Ever tried to sand Future?). Even though I use the MM Acryl Flat on occasion, I still think Polly Scale Flat is better than all of them out there, regardless of solvent. Correct, I would hesitate using Dullcoat, especially from a can. Dullcoat is lacquer based. Do yourself a faver, go to a model RR store and get a big bottle of Polly Scale Clear Flat. I recommend Model Master Acryl Diluant Thinner Acryl for thinner of all acrylic paints in airbrushing. Second to that would be Liquitex Flow Enhancer. To me, Dullcoat is way too matte and cannot be buffed either. Caz I learned all after many FUBARs and then talking to an automobile professional who is a custom painter for cars and motorcycles here. Edited July 9, 2005 by redruffensore Quote Link to post Share on other sites
madmike Posted June 18, 2005 Share Posted June 18, 2005 Applying Gunze over Aeromaster Warbird Acrylics (Pollyscale) is a no-no as well. I made that mistake with my 1:48 LTD Boomerang. Crazing aplenty! MikeJ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
madmike Posted June 18, 2005 Share Posted June 18, 2005 Colin It was a nightmare, I got most of it sorted out but it is still visible. Does not detract from the build, but I know it is there! MikeJ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kozlok Posted July 1, 2005 Share Posted July 1, 2005 I've also had trouble using Model Master Acryl Flat over future. Looked like the surface of the desert when I was finished. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jungle Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 The cold hot paint thing is true accept for one thing. Tamiya paints are true Acryllics also. They are water based, not latex. I've never had a problem with Tamiya paints ever. Secondly, you should never use a laquer or an enamel on top of an acryllic paint. The order is always Laquer, enamel, acryllic. Personally I use almost all Laquers and Acryllics (Tamiya). I use Polly scale acryllic dullcote. MM clear coats, gloss or dull, yellow over time (They aren't high quality true laquers). I don't know why anyone uses them. Try Pollyscale clears, especially for dullcoat. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
doctorpepper Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 hey guys, just to provide some counterpoint here: i've never had any problems shooting future (a "hot" paint) over my gunze acrylics. never. the biggest problem to me when shooting future is stupid hairs and dust getting on the model and then getting trapped with subsequent applications. i've even done gunze acrylics -> future -> gunze acrylics again -> future with no problems. however, lacquer based glosscoat just makes the colours run on my gunze acrylics, that's logical. i also use gunze flatcoat on top of my future i've done about 8 models with future as the gloss, no signs of cracking over gunze acrylics. sprayed at 15 psi or less, and sometimes thinned with windex. usually after spraying my gunze paint or future, i'd put some thinner (or windex, for future) in the brush, blow back a bit, and spray out the extra diluted solvent on the model as like a kinda "flash coat". it leaves everything real shiny. as far as testors is concerned, the first model i made when i got back into modelling, a f-16a black knights - well.. i didn't read the instructions, sprayed a super thick gloss coat over the bird, and every bit of white turned orange. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Barneydhc82 Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 Interesting reading!...One solution is to use Polly Scale colours and the clear finishes for perfect finishes every time. The MM Dull Coat, being a hot lacquer should never be shot over anything but a lacquer. The Polly Scale clear finishes are the best on the market..bar none...and FUTURE belongs on the floor. Barney Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CBENNA Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 I HAD A LITTLE PROBLEM WITH THE MODEL MASTER FLAT OVER FUTURE. THEN I SWITCHED TO Polly Scale FLAT AND PROBLEM SOLVED, NEVER HAD A PROBLEM AGAIN AND I SPRAY POLLY SCALE OVER FUTURE. HTH CLIFF Quote Link to post Share on other sites
redruffensore Posted November 26, 2005 Share Posted November 26, 2005 (edited) Right you are Barney, Polly Scale paints, boths the military and railroad colors, are the hardest and best opacity paints on the market. The MM Acryls are thinner and spray wonderfully, but they lack any adhesion when shot directly onto plastic! They will lift with masking. If you intend to mask a MM Acrly paint, shot the MM Acryl over a primer of Polly Scale. Tha fact that my Tamiya Acrylics are latex-based is probably due to the fact they are over twenty years old! :>) I'm sure Mr. Tamiya has changed with the times, but the only modern Tamiya paint I have is their Flesh, which is the best on the market IMHO. Caz Edited November 26, 2005 by redruffensore Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AD-4N Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 Right you are Barney, Polly Scale paints, boths the military and railroad colors, are the hardest and best opacity paints on the market. Are you talking about the water-based paints or enamel? Do place a primer under the water-based Polly Scale? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
redruffensore Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 All Polly Scale, whether Military or RR colors, are true acrylics, water-based. Caz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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