2 seater Eurofighter 'shot down' 2 F-15Es

[Shinigami]

This thread seriously needs to die

[SimFixer]

The Typhoon doesn't even carry the gun yet right ??? So, how does it get a gun kill with ummm errrr NO GUN ??? 

Gregg

The fire control system may have a "simulate" function, for missiles as well as guns. Kinda like what the F-16 has. Gives ya all the gun symbology for targeting and scoring but won't let ya actually shoot anything. All you'd need is an embedded software gun model in the stores management system that the FCS can read to generate all the gun stuff.

[siesta3]

Let's take another shot at this - you really think that it is justified for an aircrew member to break the rules of engagement because you got jumped and that because it is a gun fight? Is that you justification for it because he was some poor helpless chap? Give me a break.

Lets take another look at this - tactical air to air engagements are done over tightly controlled ranges especially around England. Prior to working in the area - scheduled or unscheduled you are briefed on who is working in those areas and I seriously doubt that the Typhoon pilot had no idea F-15Es were working that range. If your flying along and minding your own business as was said and two F-15Es jump you... your basically dead! Think about it... did he see them in his rear view mirror? So the notion that he didnt know they were there is suspect. The more I think about this the more I keep seeing someone picture either a video game where you have 3 dimensional radar or the top gun movie mentaility or better yet - that Final Countdown scenario where the japanese zeros got buzzed by two F-14s. This will be my final two cents..

[Jez]

I think that we all need to hear both viewpoints to make a conclusion about this incident. We have heard from the F-15 community, but not the Typhoon community. Until that occurs this is all speculation.

[DUX]

Let's take another shot at this - you really think that it is justified for an aircrew member to break the rules of engagement because you got jumped and that because it is a gun fight?  Is that you justification for it because he was some poor helpless chap?  Give me a break.

Lets take another look at this - tactical air to air engagements are done over tightly controlled ranges especially around England.  Prior to working in the area - scheduled or unscheduled you are briefed on who is working in those areas and I seriously doubt that the Typhoon pilot had no idea F-15Es were working that range.    If your flying along and minding your own business as was said and two F-15Es jump you... your basically dead!  Think about it... did he see them in his rear view mirror?  So the notion that he didnt know they were there is suspect. The more I think about this the more I keep seeing someone picture either a video game where you have 3 dimensional radar or the top gun movie mentaility or better yet - that Final Countdown scenario where the japanese zeros got buzzed by two F-14s.  This will be my final two cents..

No...I think they were justified in defending themselves because they were "bounced". Is the concept of "The Bully who got his comeupance" a forigien one?

A. "Man" start crap with "other man" for no reason.

B. "Other man" kick crap out of "Man" for overstepping his bounds.

C. Justice served. "Other Man" go home happy. "Man" go home sore loser.

P.S. As far as my "Final Countdown Mentality" goes...you are most certianly entitled to your opinion and that's fine and dandy...but don't insult me personally. I haven't insulted anyone on this board personally and I expect the same treatment from you. Ok, fair enough...back to the debate. Cheers!

Errata: After thinking about this for a minute or two let me caveat the above with this:

The whole thing is about quantifying your situation. The debate here is nothing but a few Avation enthusiasts killing a few minutes at a time debating something they (for the most part) are not envolved in. Some of the guys here claim to be Fighter jocks and that may be true but who really knows and in the end it's unimportant anyway. It's the internet and you can't be 100% sure of anything. It's just a spirited debate that means nothing but something done for fun at the end of the day.

I think the whole situation at hand is about the same thing. The 2 F-15E guys had no business in the first place "bouncing" a stripped clean Typhoon. They decicded to anyway and IMO got what they deserved. Rules or no. So at the end of the day they did not properly "Properly Quantify the situation at hand." And that's about as bare bones as I can make it.

Edited June 20, 2005 by DUX

[Ken Middleton]

[Murph]

Lets take another look at this - tactical air to air engagements are done over tightly controlled ranges especially around England. Prior to working in the area - scheduled or unscheduled you are briefed on who is working in those areas and I seriously doubt that the Typhoon pilot had no idea F-15Es were working that range. If your flying along and minding your own business as was said and two F-15Es jump you... your basically dead! Think about it... did he see them in his rear view mirror? So the notion that he didnt know they were there is suspect. The more I think about this the more I keep seeing someone picture either a video game where you have 3 dimensional radar or the top gun movie mentaility or better yet - that Final Countdown scenario where the japanese zeros got buzzed by two F-14s. This will be my final two cents..

No...I think they were justified in defending themselves because they were "bounced". Is the concept of "The Bully who got his comeupance" a forigien one?

A. "Man" start crap with "other man" for no reason.

B. "Other man" kick crap out of "Man" for overstepping his bounds.

C. Justice served. "Other Man" go home happy. "Man" go home sore loser.

P.S. As far as my "Final Countdown Mentality" goes...you are most certianly entitled to your opinion and that's fine and dandy...but don't insult me personally. I haven't insulted anyone on this board personally and I expect the same treatment from you. Ok, fair enough...back to the debate. Cheers!

Well let's get the rules straight. In order to be tapped, in Europe, an aircraft has to be squawking a certain IFF code, saying they are available to be tapped, and want to be tapped. If they are not squawking, they are not fair game, and will not be attacked, unless the offender wants to get an Air Traffic Control violation (which tends to have severe consequeces on one's flying career). In addition this is not necessarilly done in a range, it can take place anywhere in controlled airspace. This program has been in effect in NATO for quite a few years, and is a bit dated, because the idea is to convert to somebody's "dead six," which was necessary in the days of AIM-9B/J's, Atolls. and no look down-shoot down radar missiles. It's rather passe in an era of AA-11's, AA-12's, MICA's, AIM-120's, and AIM-9X, but still a valid visual lookout exercise. In addition, since these are unbriefed fights and likely not in a restricted airspace (i.e. a training range), and since the aircraft may not even be on the same radio frequency the defender is obliged to either rock his wings to say he's seen the attacker and acknowledge the attacker's presence, but say he has better things to do (maybe he's low on fuel), or at most to make a defensive reaction turn which stops at 180 degrees. The reason for those Training Rules are written in blood and large, expensive, smoking holes in the ground.

So now that we know the rules, here's what happened. The Typhoon squawked the appropriate IFF codes asking to be attacked, so they were not just minding their own business and were jumped out of the blue. The F-15E's swung the Typhoon's 3-9 line, by which point the Typhoon resembled a pin cushion. The Typhoons finally visually pick up the F-15E's (one wonders what their radar search and RWR awareness was to this point, but good on them for the visual pickup) and then proceeded to go well past the 180 degrees of turn allowed, grossly breaking the training rules. The F-15E's at this point have stopped maneuvering, because they have already killed the Typhoon, met the objectives of the program, and they are not interested in breaking TR's or being part of an accident investigation. In addition the F-15E's are rocking their wings to say knock that crap off, but the Typhoons continue, swapping roles and breaking a few more TR's for good measure. Yep, a victory for the ages, which the Typhoon PR office has trumpeted, just don't read the fine print. By the way, you may want to look up the original article, where they had the official Typhoon program public relations spokesman quoted, saying the Typhoon was better than everything else, except the F/A-22. In other words, it's carving a niche for itself in second place. What's that saying about air combat and second place?

Regards,

Murph

[Jez]

Like I said, we need to hear the other side of the argument.

[DUX]

Lets take another look at this - tactical air to air engagements are done over tightly controlled ranges especially around England. Prior to working in the area - scheduled or unscheduled you are briefed on who is working in those areas and I seriously doubt that the Typhoon pilot had no idea F-15Es were working that range. If your flying along and minding your own business as was said and two F-15Es jump you... your basically dead! Think about it... did he see them in his rear view mirror? So the notion that he didnt know they were there is suspect. The more I think about this the more I keep seeing someone picture either a video game where you have 3 dimensional radar or the top gun movie mentaility or better yet - that Final Countdown scenario where the japanese zeros got buzzed by two F-14s. This will be my final two cents..

No...I think they were justified in defending themselves because they were "bounced". Is the concept of "The Bully who got his comeupance" a forigien one?

A. "Man" start crap with "other man" for no reason.

B. "Other man" kick crap out of "Man" for overstepping his bounds.

C. Justice served. "Other Man" go home happy. "Man" go home sore loser.

P.S. As far as my "Final Countdown Mentality" goes...you are most certianly entitled to your opinion and that's fine and dandy...but don't insult me personally. I haven't insulted anyone on this board personally and I expect the same treatment from you. Ok, fair enough...back to the debate. Cheers! :lol:

Well let's get the rules straight. In order to be tapped, in Europe, an aircraft has to be squawking a certain IFF code, saying they are available to be tapped, and want to be tapped. If they are not squawking, they are not fair game, and will not be attacked, unless the offender wants to get an Air Traffic Control violation (which tends to have severe consequeces on one's flying career). In addition this is not necessarilly done in a range, it can take place anywhere in controlled airspace. This program has been in effect in NATO for quite a few years, and is a bit dated, because the idea is to convert to somebody's "dead six," which was necessary in the days of AIM-9B/J's, Atolls. and no look down-shoot down radar missiles. It's rather passe in an era of AA-11's, AA-12's, MICA's, AIM-120's, and AIM-9X, but still a valid visual lookout exercise. In addition, since these are unbriefed fights and likely not in a restricted airspace (i.e. a training range), and since the aircraft may not even be on the same radio frequency the defender is obliged to either rock his wings to say he's seen the attacker and acknowledge the attacker's presence, but say he has better things to do (maybe he's low on fuel), or at most to make a defensive reaction turn which stops at 180 degrees. The reason for those Training Rules are written in blood and large, expensive, smoking holes in the ground.

So now that we know the rules, here's what happened. The Typhoon squawked the appropriate IFF codes asking to be attacked, so they were not just minding their own business and were jumped out of the blue. The F-15E's swung the Typhoon's 3-9 line, by which point the Typhoon resembled a pin cushion. The Typhoons finally visually pick up the F-15E's (one wonders what their radar search and RWR awareness was to this point, but good on them for the visual pickup) and then proceeded to go well past the 180 degrees of turn allowed, grossly breaking the training rules. The F-15E's at this point have stopped maneuvering, because they have already killed the Typhoon, met the objectives of the program, and they are not interested in breaking TR's or being part of an accident investigation. In addition the F-15E's are rocking their wings to say knock that crap off, but the Typhoons continue, swapping roles and breaking a few more TR's for good measure. Yep, a victory for the ages, which the Typhoon PR office has trumpeted, just don't read the fine print. By the way, you may want to look up the original article, where they had the official Typhoon program public relations spokesman quoted, saying the Typhoon was better than everything else, except the F/A-22. In other words, it's carving a niche for itself in second place. What's that saying about air combat and second place?

Regards,

Murph

Ok, well...with that kind of an explaination I'd have to yeild to the argument against the Typhoons winning. Didn't know that. Now I do. I yeild to the fuller picture.

[phoenix54]

Hi guys,

hey Mungo, our american friends were glad to have Tornado in theatre gulf war one AND two, air to air, maybe not, but by God they CAN move ordanance. :lol:

Regards

phoenix

[DUX]

Yeah but they deilver the ordinance with the bombs still strapped to their wings. Ok, ok, just kidding... :lol:

[My Dad's Little Boy]

Okay, I've read this thread through - and despite the prefectly valid arguments about rules of engagement etc. - I still think that it's turning into a "my **** is bigger than your ****" argument, again, and I think it's also turning into an anti-British tirade. "Oh the Tornado's a piece of cr*p - they got shot down like flies in the Gulf War etc, etc." I hate to say this but IIRC, they were all carrying out low-level attacks on Iraqi runways and the weapons and tactics that they were using meant that they had to fly straight and level - and they were either shot down by shoulder launched SAMs or by AAA. If I'm wrong then I stand corrected. But what I'm saying is that whatever type of aircraft flies that type of mission would have have got shot down exactly the same way. Let's face hitting an aircraft that's flying dead straight and level at 50 feet is as about as hard as peeing into an urinal - if you have half-decent reflexes and surface-to-air weapons, you just can't miss.

For as long as the Americans have been based in Europe, there has always been friendly rivalry between the RAF and USAF and a desire 'to get one over' between their pilots. Thats what pilots do - it's human nature, and long may it continue.

I've already said all I have to say about comparing different types of aircraft in a previous thread and my opinion hasn't changed.

Anyway, I'll get back into my hole now :P

Cheers :lol:

Jeff :(

Edited June 20, 2005 by Steve Filak

[Chappie]

Why can't Eagles lose? Some people seem to think that it's impossible and that's just rediculious. brand new design. I mean, come on...the Eagle should have been retired years ago.

I've avoided this thread for days, but could no longer stay away. I have not read every thread word-for-word, but I do have this to say...........

The Eagle has NEVER lost where is counts....COMBAT. I think its score is something like 105:0. And until the Typhoon, J-10, Rafale, or even the Raptor can boast even a fraction of that record, the Eagle will forever be King of the Hill.

Chappie

Edited June 20, 2005 by Chappie

[habu2]

Hmmm, full moon's not until tomorrow....

[My Dad's Little Boy]

I've avoided this thread for days, but could no longer stay away. I have not read every thread word-for-word, but I do have this to say...........

The Eagle has NEVER lost where is counts....COMBAT. I think its score is something like 105:0. And until the Typhoon, J-10, Rafale, or even the Raptor can boast even a fraction of that record, the Eagle will forever be King of the Hill.

I still think that it's turning into a "my **** is bigger than your ****" argument, again,

Told ya!

Jeff

[geedubelyer]

:o

JEEZ GUYS

ENOUGH ALREADY.....!

[GreyGhost]

I like cheese!

[Homer] Mmmmmmm Cheeeeese ![/Homer]

Gregg

[hawkhornet]

:o

JEEZ GUYS

ENOUGH ALREADY.....!

AMEN

even though the f 15e is my favourite aircraft its obvious that the eurofighter is be better!

[Albert Moore]

Hmmm, full moon's not until tomorrow....

H2,

They're getting a jump start on things....

must....resist....the....lock....topic....function...........

[Ken Middleton]

anyone know which is more accurate in 32nd....the Tamiya F-16 or Academy F-16? How about the best 72nd Tornado F3? What is future called in your country?

[DUX]

Oh come now. You guys had fun with this and you know it. Nothing like a little **** and vinager to make a good debate facinating. I don't see any real hard feelings on here at all...just a lot of smack and some POV's. It's fun...keeps you frosty. Anyway, proofs in the pudding...just look at the views for this post. Some may have called it a Train Wreck but people like Train Wrecks and that too is just human nature. I thought it all in good fun.

[Alpha Male]

anyone know which is more accurate in 32nd....the Tamiya F-16 or Academy F-16?

Kangman F-16XL has them both beat by Russian mile buddy.

I am done with this.

Bestest Regards,

Alpha

[MoFo]

Some may have called it a Train Wreck but people like Train Wrecks

You obviously don't understand ARC's philosophy.

[H Mungous]

Kangman F-16XL has them both beat by Russian mile buddy.

I am done with this.

Bestest Regards,

Alpha

Too many cowboy hamburgers there buddy. I too am done with this.

Cheers,

Hugh

[DUX]

Some may have called it a Train Wreck but people like Train Wrecks

You obviously don't understand ARC's philosophy.

What's the ARC Philosophy and where did this thread become at odds with it?