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paholmes

Help me settle a Star Trek argument....

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With the magnificent Polar Lights kit that just came out, I have a rekindled interest in the trek movies.

But, and this is coming from a guy who hasn't been a trek fan for a while, why does the Enterprise have more battle damage on it in movie #3 than at the end of #2???

Interested in hearing your "theories".... :rolleyes:

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No, Khan did a number on the E's anti matter reactor deck... There was black all over it. Then there was damage all over the primary hull (above and below). I don't think she took as much of a beating in any other movie except ST6 (3 not counting, they blew her up).

What I really liked in ST3 was that they showed the battle damage patched over with square stock plates. She may have been beaten bloody, but she was able to make it back to stardock on her own power.

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But, if you look at the end of Wrath of Khan, and compare it to the beginning of Search for Spock... it has way more damage in #3 than it did at the end of #2.

How bout it? :rolleyes:

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Can you provide a specific example? The only damage I specifically remember was to the secondary hull at and below the torpedo deck on the port side, and that appeared (patched over) in #3.

The Enterprise was shown in brighter light in #3, and in closer view, which might create the impression that the damage was worse in #3.

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Ok... here goes....(not trying to sound like a super-Trekkie, I am just a stickler for details sometimes.... this might take a while! :worship: )

Pic 1

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/sherlock72/2_aft.bmp

This shot shows the Enterprise in Movie 2, right after the initial assault on it by the Reliant.

Pic 2

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/sherlock72/2_port.jpg

This shows damage right after the second and final assault upon the Enterprise

Pic 3

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/she...2_Starboard.jpg

This shows the UNDAMAGED starboard side in the same movie, after the second assault

Pic 4

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/she.../3_Stbd_Aft.jpg

Showing part of the now damaged Starboard side

Pic 5

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/she...maged_model.bmp

The damaged movie model.... note the extent of the carbon scoring on the hull

Pic 6

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/sherlock72/3_Port.jpg

An image from the 3rd movie, showing a fair bit more damage and carbon scoring than the 2nd movie model... note damage on engines not present in Pic 2

Hope this makes sense, and that I haven't ruffled any feathers. I was just curious what the general consensus is among more mainstream trekkies.

:worship:

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Wow. I don't know of any official or unofficial explanation... but I'm impressed at your detective work. I'd never noticed the discrepancy.

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I think you're going to get more participation and REALLY good answers if you ask in the Trek forum on Starship Modeler.

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I disagree... If you look at it the DAMAGE is the same. If anything only the burn marks are more enhanced.

There could be several explanations, ranging from Trek to Behind-the-Scenes.

First, the side is more grey than black in ST3. It could be a result of the patching process, repairing the gaping maw of a hole with stock plates of duraluminum (or whatever the heck they claim to use), and/or priming it to prevent corrosion.

Second, the lighting is a very important issue. Every modeler knows that lighting brings out all the details in his/her model. Inside a spacedock you have high-beam bright lights. Out in space (ST2) you have more subdued lighting, more ambient, that just shows the highlights of the ships (for the most part).

Third, it is possible that there is a time delay effect, whereby trying to scrub/torch off the damaged jagged parts of the hull, the repair process actually scorched more of it. Like "It's better to have a burn mark than a huge patch of sandpaper for hull plating".

Fourth, shock effect. ST3 was pretty bad as it was. Heck, they couldn't even get Kirstey Alley back. They might have thrown continuity to the wind, banking on people not having seen the previous movie for a few years, and said "We want this to look like she's been to hell and back, to justify the reactions of those on the observation deck".

The trekkie in me says 1, 2, and 3. The film/production student in me says 4.

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When it comes to dramatic effect, nothing works like overcooked weathering- especially when it is phaser inspired!

Khan was lucky his target did not explode in his face, given the range and the sections he was shooting at.

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Then who would have the superior intellect?

:D

MikeJ

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Because I simply cannot resist a good geek argument...

Enterprise looks worse in the opening shots of the third movie than in the second because she is not through taking damage. Her trainee crew is probably busy tackling matters large and small long after the fight, and maybe doesn't have time to handle everything before something else that had to wait gets tired of waiting and fails, causing further damage.

You naval war buffs will recall that USS Franklin was severely damaged (and nearly sunk) during the Battle of Leyte Gulf. Post-battle photos of the ship showed something that looked more a charred bit of flotsam than vessel, yet Franklin made it all the way back to New York, under her own power no less. Likely her skipper had to make a judgement call or six regarding prioritization of repairs. This may have left some damaged items/systems wanting while the big-ticket stuff was taken care of. Further damage to the ship could easily have resulted.

Something similar can be taken to have happened to Enterprise.

Boy have I given this problem too much attention.

BJ

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and/or priming it to prevent corrosion.

Rain a lot in space, does it? :cheers:

Thanks... though this reeks of geek-ness, I was actually trying to be serious.

I don't consider myself a trekkie, but I am in the progress of starting up the Polar Lights kit, I wanted to do a good job on it, and I got to wondering about this topic.

Apologies for sounding grumpy, but I don't really like being made fun of... I'm sure you don't either.

And yes, I can take a joke.

Edited by paholmes

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IIRC I think it may be that due to the kit studio model being lost/stolen after the ST2 movie, so when they built the new one they over compensated with the battle damage.

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and/or priming it to prevent corrosion.

Rain a lot in space, does it? :cheers:

Thanks... though this reeks of geek-ness, I was actually trying to be serious.

I don't consider myself a trekkie, but I am in the progress of starting up the Polar Lights kit, I wanted to do a good job on it, and I got to wondering about this topic.

Apologies for sounding grumpy, but I don't really like being made fun of... I'm sure you don't either.

And yes, I can take a joke.

Ok, easy...

(backing away slowly).

I got the gyst of what you were saying. But it had a certain "driving through a carwash in a convertible with the top down" flare to it.

Nothing personal and I would have expected a similar shot had I made the statement. But besides all that, you had a point.

I've often wondered as to why the change in the appearance between the two movies. It was never more than just a passing thought, though and I considered that it was just maybe they took more time to "dress it up".

But I wasn't making fun of YOU, personally. I just thought it was kind of funny. Maybe if left unpainted, Bertold rays cause the duralumin alloy to degrade. Since it's science fiction, anything is possible.

Of late, I've been watching a lot of those 1950's sci-fi flicks and giggling through the vague, nebulous descriptions that are offered by the "scientists" portrayed in them. But, well...what can ya say?

N/P Rusty... I usually get teased about a whole lot of things anyway. :taunt:

My favourite thing about ******** trekkies in general is all of their pet theories on virtually anything in the Trek universe.... I was hoping to get some here... but I guess that Starship Modeler would probably be a better place....

...I'm dying to see what they will say...

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Trekkie mode "ON"

Before the Enterprise arrived at SpaceDock...she had been already badly damaged by Khan's attack....however...what we didn't see were the frantic efforts of Scotty and his trainee crew trying to keep the ship together...Spocks sacrifice was heroic and timely, but the whole engineering safeties had beem seriously compromised. Several small packets of anti matter had to be ejected, and immediately exploded outside the ship's shields, which were already weakened. Also, several units of warp drive machinery and impulse propulsion systems were jury rigged, and the final fast jump to warp had stressed them beyond their specified tolerances. This set up a series of cascading failures which would have in all likelyhood, destroyed the ship. Lacking the time to dismantle them and transport them off ship...Scotty was forced to cut through the hull in several spots so as to dump the gear overboard before it exploded. Also, rumours had it that several crewmen were trapped in areas unable to be transported in or out of due to high levels of Beta radiation, so additional holes had to be poked into the hull. Only through fast damage control and the brilliant improvisations of Chief Engineer Scott did Enterprise make it back to SpaceDock, but her damage was so severe that her future as an operational ship was ended. Most, if not all of the drive systems, shield and transporter as well as weapons arrays were totally written off, and had not the ship been stolen by Kirk and company, it would very likely have been scrapped in a quick manner so as to remove a very embarrasing event in Starfleet history.

Or else they ran into Orion Pirates....

Trekkie mode "OFF"

How's THAT for off the top of my head?

Alvis 3.1

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Not enough technobabble, Alvis, but nice try.

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Trekkie mode "ON"

Before the Enterprise arrived at SpaceDock...she had been already badly damaged by Khan's attack....however...what we didn't see were the frantic efforts of Scotty and his trainee crew trying to keep the ship together...Spocks sacrifice was heroic and timely, but the whole engineering safeties had beem seriously compromised. Several small packets of anti matter had to be ejected, and immediately exploded outside the ship's shields, which were already weakened. Also, several units of warp drive machinery and impulse propulsion systems were jury rigged, and the final fast jump to warp had stressed them beyond their specified tolerances. This set up a series of cascading failures which would have in all likelyhood, destroyed the ship. Lacking the time to dismantle them and transport them off ship...Scotty was forced to cut through the hull in several spots so as to dump the gear overboard before it exploded. Also, rumours had it that several crewmen were trapped in areas unable to be transported in or out of due to high levels of Beta radiation, so additional holes had to be poked into the hull. Only through fast damage control and the brilliant improvisations of Chief Engineer Scott did Enterprise make it back to SpaceDock, but her damage was so severe that her future as an operational ship was ended. Most, if not all of the drive systems, shield and transporter as well as weapons arrays were totally written off, and had not the ship been stolen by Kirk and company, it would very likely have been scrapped in a quick manner so as to remove a very embarrasing event in Starfleet history.

Or else they ran into Orion Pirates....

Trekkie mode "OFF"

How's THAT for off the top of my head?

Alvis 3.1

Dude, that is SICK. :lol: :D

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Many moons ago, I played a board game called "Star Cruiser". It was the ship combat system for the role-playing game "2300AD". The game itself had a lot of problems that should have been sorted out in playtesting (later I worked for the company and found out the reasons it was rushed into print).

One cool feature was something called "continuing damage". This was a critical hit result: basically, for each point of "continuing damage", the ship took one extra hit at the end of the turn. This represented ongoing fires, leaks, etc. Continuing damage could itself cause more continuing damage points, and the whole thing could snowball. Once I lost a ship almost entirely due to continuing damage that never got under control.

What's more: During this game we had the "Star Trek II" soundtrack playing as background music, and when the first point of continuing damage was scored, it matched the exact point in the movie when Spock says "They knew exactly where to hit us."

Good times, good times...

Maybe the Enterprise had some continuing damage hits?

Just a thought.

Edited by ckalina

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Just a comment, by the time of ST-2 and ST-3 the Enterprise and its class of ship (constitution refit) where old ships, though still front line cruisers, and therefore presumably would not be as efficient at taking hits ands undergoing repairs, i believe in ST-3 one officer says that the E is being retired as she's 20yrs old or something along those lines.

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Ohhhhh SMELL the geek fumes!!!

:cop:

Rusty rules this thread (I can just hear Gribble saying that!)

There is no rain in space, but in Low Earth Orbit, there is corrosion, and it occurs to plastics, not metals. I read that our Long Term Exposure Facility experiment suffred from it when it's mission was extended after the Challenger explosion. By the time the thing was finally brought back for study,it was found that the "atomic oxygen"(ions) found at that altitude had eaten all of the carbonate-based test elements away, leaving their metallic overlays floating unattached in synchronous orbit with the rest of the satellite.

Nothing like rehashing a contentious old thread! :worship:

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I would imagine that the differences in appearance were caused by two factors...

1. The FX crew didn't do its research when getting ready for the later movie, and "forgot" where the damage was. So, they got creative and added more damage than was necessary.

2. There was a conscious attempt to make the Enterprise look more damaged for dramatic effect.

There really sould only have been damage on the port side engineering hull, at least heavy, visible damage.

Robert

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