Jump to content

Space Shuttle question


Recommended Posts

Here are a couple of shots showing the evolution of the FSS. The first is of the Columbia (STS-1) on the pad and is likely the earliest shuttle photo I have. (Notice the white ET... interesting) The second is also Columbia on the pad.

Neither of these photos is dated (and I have no idea who took them) but the Columbia shot has to be shortly before her final flight.

#1

complex__022.jpg

#2

complex__018.jpg

I have hi-res copies of these (#1: 2400x3000 753kb, #2: 3000x1968 1.36mb) if anyone would like one.

edit - I want to thank Jay for pointing out that the first pic is of Columbia, I thought it was Enterprise.

Edited by indydog
Link to post
Share on other sites

Very nice comparson pics there. And just for the record, both shots are of Pad 39A. Now below I have added a couple of pictures I took of Discovery on Pad 39B during RSS rollback for STS-121 last June. They aren't quite as good as previous RSS rollback shots I've seen since the event took place at dusk on this occassion and they didn't kick on the spotlights until after the photographers were back on the bus and heading back to the press site. As such, the RSS wasn't fully rolled back to its stowage position until after the sun had gone down and it was getting darker. But, you can kind of see that 39A of 2003 and 39B of 2006 look about the same in terms of the general look of the pads. Even without the spotlights, the "mood lighting" of a shuttle sitting on the pad at dusk is a cool thing to see up close.

121-1.jpg

121night2.jpg

Edited by Jay Chladek
Link to post
Share on other sites

Just picked up the Tamiya 1/100 kit myself. Like has been said, it's a nice kit, and a nice managable size, but the off scale means virtually no aftermarket. Decals would be nice since all you get is Enterprise (which the kit isn't) and early Columbia.

Edited by Dave Williams
Link to post
Share on other sites
Hey Jay, thanks for your reply. Could you elaborate on the last point you mentioned? Are you saying there are two "launch pad" kits in 1/144, one with a shuttle stack and one without? I could only find this one:

ed05_1.JPG

Yes there were two boxings of the tower kit. The one you picture and another one that is the tower only.

The box is about half the size of the one pictured and has a picture of the tower. I have one but it is buried away so I cannot photograph it for you.

Cheers,

Max

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 months later...

Hey folks, bumping this one back to life, LOL.

I just found this thread, and apparently its just a bit too late,

As for 1/200 scale, Hasegawa would be the one to get (avoid the Lindberg kit).

Unfortunatly, I just bought one (lindberg kit), delivery expected like tommorow. So whats the major pitfalls I'm going to be looking at one this one? :)

Thanks

J

Link to post
Share on other sites

Now THAT is a cool picture Kevin! Plus, (at least after STS-1 and 2) it is very rare to see a shuttle from a bus tour without the RSS over it. How close to launch was that? In that shot, she looks pretty well ready since I don't see any net on the ET (due to a minor foam shedding issue around the time of the Flight Readiness Firing), no strong backs on the payload bay doors and no cranes in the background. VERY COOL!

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 months later...

Okay, here is an update for shuttle fans. I posted a similar message on another site and felt the information would be of great value here, since it could be pinned and referenced. It talks about the current shuttle TPS pattern, which began to be used starting around 1996. It also links to some great NASA photos of the shuttles during prep at KSC. With this, you should potentially have the resources to do the TPS pattern on a current shuttle set up for ISS flights.

The white areas on orbiters are covered with Fiberous Reuseable Surface Insulation (FRSI) and Advanced Fiberous Reuseable Surface Insulation (AFRSI). The FRSI is a thin Nomex pad used on the lowest heat areas and indeed the FRSI material is essentiall the same type of nomex (or at least similar) pad that the shuttle tiles are bonded to (the nomex pad is bonded to the orbiter and in tern bonded to the tile to help give it a little flex factor). The FRSI material has been used on shuttle since STS-1. It is mainly used on the very tops of the payload bay doors and on tops of the wings (where the reentry heating is the lowest).

The AFRSI is the thick quilted material that has replaced a lot of the white tiles in medium heat areas. Challenger made some small use of it while Discovery was the first orbiter to make a lot of use of it. Columbia and Challenger for instance had white tiles all around the nose while Atlantis, Discovery and Endeavour replaced those spots with AFRSI. Later on, some white tile was added back in, such as around the flight deck windows and the fronts of the OMS pods.

The SIM 3 book's tile paintjob references are excellent, but they only go to about 1993. The reason why I mention that is the TPS patterns on all the shuttles except for Columbia went through another revision when the orbiters were sent through their Orbiter Modification Down Period (OMDP, essentially a refit and refurbishment) at Palmdale during the late 1990s in preparation for ISS construction flights. To provide a little more payload capability to the ISS, the white TPS patterns on the shuttle were revised a little and some of the AFRSI areas were replaced with FRSI (since FRSI is a lighter weight material).

Prior to this, the shuttle TPS utilized A LOT of AFRSI on the orbiter and very little FRSI was utilized at all (as I said, the tops of the wings and the tops of the payload bay doors at that point). During the refits, the FRSI areas on the wings were enlarged and FRSI was added back into the rear areas under the payload bay doors, behind the AFRSI (sort of bringing a return to another stair step pattern in that area, but not made up of LRSI tiles this time as it was on early Columbia and Challenger). This new pattern looks very similar to what Columbia was sporting after her 1985 refit, when she had a similar AFRSI to FRSI pattern on the sides of the fuselage also.

The wing TPS patterns are the most distinctive. Here we see Endeavour rolling out to the pad in 1996 for STS-77 (prior to its ISS ODMP refit). If you look at the wing edges, you can really see the contrast between the bright white AFRSI and the slightly tanner FRSI material (which the color markings were painted onto).

http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/missio...C-96EC-0526.jpg

Now compare this with the wing TPS pattern on Discovery, which was the first shuttle to go through ODMP in preparation for ISS flights (actually, I think Endeavour got this pattern first, but it went through another OMDP before its first ISS mission). This is the STS-85 launch and it was the second one of Discovery since OMDP. BTW, you will also notice how some of the FRSI material on the wings hasn't been replaced yet and it is a much dingier brown coloring then the fresh white stuff (also notice how it is mostly in the areas that were painted with the flag and orbiter name markings).

http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/missio...C-97EC-1205.jpg

Next up is Atlantis again, rolling over to the VAB with an excellent color showcase of the FRSI and AFRSI tile material, prior to her OMDP refit in 1998. The color differences between the two materials show up VERY well here as the sunlight is hitting it just right and there is just enough dirt on the FRSI to distinguish it from the AFRSI.

http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/missio...C-97EC-1221.jpg

And here we have Discovery again from STS-91 (after ISS OMDP) during rollover to the VAB. Admittedly, this is not as great a shot since this is ground level, not above. You can sort of make out the border between the FRSI and AFRSI just in front of the NASA "wurm" logo on the payload bay doors and sort of steps around the "United States" logo on the side. Compare that to the above shot of Atlantis with AFRSI all over the center part of the orbiter. The FRSI doesn't begin until the boat tail area on it.

http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/missio...C-98EC-0536.jpg

Here is Discovery from STS-95 rollover sporting her new NASA Meatballs. This is an above shot, but the sun angle isn't quite as good on that Atlantis picture. But the AFRSI to FRSI transition on the payload bay doors is very easy to make out. STS-95 BTW was the John Glenn mission, so there was a lot of photo coverage of it. Also note how the dirty brown FRSI with the old paint has been replaced by new and freshly painted FRSI with the new logos.

http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/missio...C-98EC-1064.jpg

And last but not least, this is Endeavour from STS-108 rollover. Note the reflection glare on the FRSI, showing the border VERY well. As a bonus, the shot below is Atlantis from STS-110 with the absolute best shot I have been able to find of the AFRSI to FRSI border in normal light (and without so much dirt buildup on the blankets either). The blankets have just enough wear on them to show it and the light is just right.

http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/missio...C-01PP-1627.jpg

http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/missio...C-02PD-0246.jpg

All these images were found at the following link:

http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/photos/

If you wish to download hi res versions, simply click on the mission and locate the photo number, then click on the high res "H" to download. Lots of good stuff here!

Edited by Jay Chladek
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 6 months later...
  • 4 months later...
Oke guys thanks for the help, this was really helpfull, I think I wait a little longer when I got a good job and some more money, and I think I than will go for something in 1/72. and I will look or something els, Like the new Super Hornet of revell,

but thanks for the advisse, now I know How much money I have to save :bandhead2:

Hey Bjorn!

I don't build any space kits, but, I have a 1/72 Revell "Challenger" that I will trade you. Now, I don't know how much 52 euros is, but, contact me direct asap at imtelly@izoom.net I can send you a pic if you send me your addy(only way I know how to do it). Do it now?! Thanks much!

Telly

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

Looks like Tamiya has reissued their 1/100 Shuttle, now including decals for Discovery, Endeavour, and Atlantis, although I suspect the actual molds haven't been updated.

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/image/10030416n5/40/5

I've got one of the earlier boxings and it seems like a nice little kit, not too big, not too small, good detail, especially the main engines. The only real issue that I see is the lack of aftermarket accessories since it's an "off" scale. At least decals seem less of a problem now.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Interesting. I shall have to try and acquire one when it comes out then. Thanks for the heads up.

Already out. Ordered one from Sprue Bothers yesterday.

Edit: Got the kit the other day. The molds are unchanged. Even the instructions are the same. The only differences are the decals and an additional piece of paper showing the placement of the new decals. Even the box art looks the same at first glance, but they have subtly altered all of the orbiter artwork to add the NASA meatball, as well as added a little text box indicating that the kit has names for 5 shuttles. Even the kit number is the same, although the yen price on the end of the box has gone up from 3200 to 3600 yen.

Edited by Dave Williams
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 1 month later...
  • 5 months later...

JBOT Decals makes a sheet of 1/100 orbiter markings for the Tamiya kit. The Aoshima kit has a high initial 'wow' factor, mainly due to the cutaway feature. At some point, you realize that the interiors are representative at best, and the exterior has assorted inaccuracies and omissions that a kit of this price might not be expected to have. Plenty of builders have done better exterior finishes to the Revellogram kits with a little effort. I have the kit. For the novelty factor alone, I'm glad I bought it. For a builder who wants to really accurize the interiors, bash in some Revellogram and aftermarket parts, and detail the tile and blanket TPS, it's a no-brainer starting point. The difference between roughly $30 and $160 requires some thought.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 months later...

Thanks for the decal references. I was just about to start looking for those.

I just started, (Friday,) another Monogram 1/72 Orbiter. This will be Atlantis, STS-84, on-orbit configuration, November completion hoped for, (for Massachusetts BayCON show.)

I'm brand new here, so haven't figured out photo posting yet, but you may be interested in seeing a VERY time-consuming, but worthwhile technique for tile detail. (Photo posting tips please?)

Evergreen #104, (.010 x .080,) jig cut into squares makes perfect 1/72 add on tiles for the HRSI (black), #105 for the 8" white LRSI. The .010 adds little to the overall size, and is within tolerance for both the Mono and Revell Orbiters. The results are stunning in a cross light!

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 5 months later...

All of the kits were not issued before STS-1. The 1/72nd Monogram full stack came after. It's Tank and SRBs are about the best representation of the real thing at that point in the program- though

both, as Jay points out, can use improvement. The Orbiter in that scale- both the Monogram and Revell have pluses and minuses. If you want a quick and dirty representation of tile- then buying the Revell and taking advantage of the raised line tiles are representative as is. The pattern is completely inaccurate, however. But so far there are no accurate representations- including all the after-market decals (though they get it much better- but then aren't 3 dimensional (but smooth as decals are). Personally, I like Hasegawa's stack kit- at 1/200th scale. Lindberg also has a full stack in like scale, with a tiled orbiter that's not bad (...especially for Lindberg!), but you also get SRBs that have no nozzles (...why they did that? Hey! It's Lindberg!). The basic Revell 1/144th stack is OK, and you get a basic, undetailed representation of the mobile launch platform/crawler- better than nothing. I have all the 1/144th scale kits that ever came out through about 1990 (when I left the shuttle program) and still think the Revell orbiter is the nicest for a quick build and also is open to much super detailing like myself and others who are major league scratch builders/modifiers like to work with. I really liked the overall sharper detail of the Airfix orbiter but the molded in payload and payload bay is something that needs major rework if you want a payload bay on it's own. Back to the 1/72nd Monogram SRBs- they really have the nicest detailing of any scale SRBs but also need correcting. But uncorrected- you have nice look solids with a nice (but almost too huge) kit. Some people like to put the Revell orbiter on that stack due to the tile detailing. I'm a bit biased, having been on the program as the TPS went through many changes- and having been a comm system engineer (amongst many systems) I had to deal directly with those various TPS (all of the antenna are mounted beneath tile and blankets except for 2, not including EMU antennas). Personally, I would like to have a large scale orbiter for more detail (like the ablative TPS on aileron/flap inner surfaces used on OV-120 Columbia only)- including a decently outfitted crew module (which never flew the same configuration twice).

BP

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 5 months later...
All of the kits were not issued before STS-1. The 1/72nd Monogram full stack came after. It's Tank and SRBs are about the best representation of the real thing at that point in the program- though

both, as Jay points out, can use improvement. The Orbiter in that scale- both the Monogram and Revell have pluses and minuses. If you want a quick and dirty representation of tile- then buying the Revell and taking advantage of the raised line tiles are representative as is. The pattern is completely inaccurate, however. But so far there are no accurate representations- including all the after-market decals (though they get it much better- but then aren't 3 dimensional (but smooth as decals are). Personally, I like Hasegawa's stack kit- at 1/200th scale. Lindberg also has a full stack in like scale, with a tiled orbiter that's not bad (...especially for Lindberg!), but you also get SRBs that have no nozzles (...why they did that? Hey! It's Lindberg!). The basic Revell 1/144th stack is OK, and you get a basic, undetailed representation of the mobile launch platform/crawler- better than nothing. I have all the 1/144th scale kits that ever came out through about 1990 (when I left the shuttle program) and still think the Revell orbiter is the nicest for a quick build and also is open to much super detailing like myself and others who are major league scratch builders/modifiers like to work with. I really liked the overall sharper detail of the Airfix orbiter but the molded in payload and payload bay is something that needs major rework if you want a payload bay on it's own. Back to the 1/72nd Monogram SRBs- they really have the nicest detailing of any scale SRBs but also need correcting. But uncorrected- you have nice look solids with a nice (but almost too huge) kit. Some people like to put the Revell orbiter on that stack due to the tile detailing. I'm a bit biased, having been on the program as the TPS went through many changes- and having been a comm system engineer (amongst many systems) I had to deal directly with those various TPS (all of the antenna are mounted beneath tile and blankets except for 2, not including EMU antennas). Personally, I would like to have a large scale orbiter for more detail (like the ablative TPS on aileron/flap inner surfaces used on OV-120 Columbia only)- including a decently outfitted crew module (which never flew the same configuration twice).

BP

BP,

Can I take advantage of your experience with Columbia? I found the NASA website that has the various diagrams of the various orbiters on it, including the sensor housing at the forward top of the tail of Columbia. I have the Revell 1/72 shuttle, and I'm putting it on top of the AIM 747. Would it be more or less correct to just use the pattern on the tail pretty much as is? Or, would you reccomend doing something else? I would like to get the Columbia as accurate as possible without going too overboard since there's a lot of work on the 747 to be done. I'm in the process of sanding off the tile pattern everywhere else on the model, because I have a very nice set of decals I bought on ebay and now have in my possession. I'll be posting pictures of them very soon in an update in the airliners forum. I'm planning on adding the sensor to the tail as I want the Columbia to look like what it was shortly before it was lost. Also, How would you reccomend simulating the AFRSI "blanket" tiles, and the LRSI/FRSI tiles on the ship??

Thanks in Advance,

Paul

Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm planning on adding the sensor to the tail as I want the Columbia to look like what it was shortly before it was lost.

Does this mean you're shifting from the 1985 pre-61C timeframe to 2001 pre-STS-109 for your build?

Link to post
Share on other sites
Does this mean you're shifting from the 1985 pre-61C timeframe to 2001 pre-STS-109 for your build?

Mig,

I don't really know yet. About the only concrete thing I can tell you about this diorama is it's going to be the 1/72 scale Revell shuttle kit depicted as Columbia on top of the AIM 1/72 747 kit done up and painted/marked as SCA #905 in a landing configuration on a base that hopefully will look like part of a runway. Everything else is up in the air at the moment. (No pun intended). I need to find out when the sensor was added to the tail, and when all the tiles were changed. It seems there was a major change to every OV with almost every mission. I'm still trying to nail down details about Columbia. I do know the tile pattern on the shuttle kit I have is wrong unless I'm doing Enterprise. Since I'm doing Columbia, I'm sanding it almost all off. I saw the tile diagram for Columbia on the NASA site and it looked pretty good to me. I'm no expert by any means, so I'm asking anyone who is willing to answer the questions I have. I don't want to go too crazy here, but I would like to get kind of somewhat sort of close. Help.......Please..... :crying:

Paul

Edited by Paul Mullins
Link to post
Share on other sites

Any way you slice it it's going to be complicated. Look at it this way, though: you're not going through the trial of adding physical tiles to the orbiter kit, as I've seen done before. Decals look good enough, and when combined with the 747 will be spectacular.

As for specific mission configurations for the orbiter, you may find this helpful, in addition to any future orbiters you plan to build. Either configuration will work. If you want my opinion, I think the later, 2001 configuration looks better, if only because the revised Nasa logo looks great.

Another suggestion I might make, if you're willing to go further with this, is to perhaps build more than one orbiter to perch on the SCA. You might change your mind after finishing this beast, though. :)

EDIT: I checked a couple of sources, and at least one item is wrong regarding that document's illustration of 61C: Columbia's name was still on the forward end of the payload doors on 61C. It moved forward to the area used by the other orbiters starting with STS-28.

Edited by MiG31
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...