anyone have pics of a RAF T-Bolt

[Quiddy]

I need a pic of the right side of the camo. The colors are Dark Green and Ocean Gray. The decal sheet gives the left side. Or should I just fake it? :huh:

Thanks,

Wayne Beattie

[agboak]

The colours are not DG/OG but DG/Dark Earth. The camouflage pattern is the same as for any other RAF single-engined fighter - dig out a few Spitfire/Hurricane photos or models on the web.

[Bob Perry]

I have a photograph from an old Aircam. PM me your e-amil address and it's on the way.

Bob

[Quiddy]

The RAF used DG/OG on the Thunderbolt for a short time in 1945.

Wayne Beattie

[peebeep]

I won't get into the colours debate but this should give you some pointers about patterns.

Peebeep

[agboak]

I actually believe that is true (some T'bolts in DG/OG) but evidence is slim, and the best research work specifically states otherwise. As 615 was fairly late in conversion then the chance, if it exists at all, is higher for them. Or did they simply renumber another unit?

[Quiddy]

According to the RAF website, 615 Sq. was disbanded on the 10th of June 1945 but was re-established the same day when 135 Sq. was renumbered 615. 135 Sq. was equipped with Thunderbolts.

So I guess I should research 135 Sq. too.

Wayne Beattie

[Quiddy]

I looked in the book Thunderbolt in the Pacific Theater by Ernest R. McDowell from Squadron Signal and it said that the Thunderbolts arrived in the CBI Theater in the American equivalent of the British DG/OC on top and Medium Sea Grey on the bottom. These colors were deemed to be unsuitable for the Theater and were changed to DG/Dark Earth soon afterward. So I guess we are both right.

Wayne Beattie

[agboak]

Yes, that is right, the colours were Olive Drab and (Ooops! I forget.... They are the authorised alternatives when US production was standardised. I'll come back tonight with the names if no-one else offers them) I dug out Geoff Thomas's opus late last night and that gives the correct names for the colours. So none of them were in DG/OG......

The only photo I could find of 615 was in nm. The only photos of 135 were of early Mk.1s. So there is a gap.

GT also gave the serials for the bare metal deliveries. About half-way through the -30 batch. What serial was provided - it might be a useful check?

[agboak]

The three colours were:

AN613 Olive Drab

AN603 Sea Gray

AN602 Light Gray

KL288 apparently was the first uncamouflaged P-47D-30-RE

[Quiddy]

Thanks for the info. The serial number for the plane I am doing is HD 269. I have the plane almost masked off for the green. I am not sure if I'll do it OD or DG. The est of the model is done with colors that are close to the British versions so I might as well stay with the chosen colors.

I'll post the pics of the plane when I am finished painting the green. I am painting the white stripes on after the camo is done.

Thanks,

Wayne Beattie

Edited September 19, 2005 by Quiddy

[Quiddy]

Here is the T-Bolt painted without the white markings.

Wayne Beattie

[Chuck1945]

Geoff Thomas was rather clear, at least to me, in his booklet about RAF Thunderbolts that the US paint job was redone upon arrival in India with DE replacing the topside grey. DG/DE were the standard SEAC upper colors when camo was applied to aircraft.

HD269 was one of 30 P-47-25REs delivered between 27 May and 14 May 1944. It was US 42-26749 and was issued to 30 Sqd as RS-S. In June 1945 it became KW-R of 615 Sqd. There is a photo of it in Thomas' book which supports the idea the top colors were DG/DE, not DG/OG.

[Quiddy]

Well.... :D I have gotten this far in the painting process. I think I have done too good a paint job (at least to my eyes and standards) that I don't want to strip it down and repaint. Besides the instructions say DG/OG they can't be wrong can they?

It will be a what if paint scheme then!!

Wayne Beattie

[Brad-M]

Well.... I have gotten this far in the painting process. I think I have done too good a paint job (at least to my eyes and standards) that I don't want to strip it down and repaint. Besides the instructions say DG/OG they can't be wrong can they?

It will be a what if paint scheme then!!

Wayne Beattie

Hi Wayne,

Why not just leave it and state that is what it looked like upon arrival? I wonder if it would have had star and bars and different codes and serials? You are right that the paint job looks great, I agree with you there, nice job.

Cheers

Brad

[agboak]

Roundels and RAF serials were applied at the factory before despatch.

[Brad-M]

Roundels and RAF serials were applied at the factory before despatch.

Then why paint it the US equivalent of DG/OG? Why not paint them DE/DG before despatch?

Brad

[breadboard]

Roundels and RAF serials were applied at the factory before despatch.

Then why paint it the US equivalent of DG/OG? Why not paint them DE/DG before despatch?

Brad

No email in those days. and post office was its usual efficient self

[Quiddy]

The DG/OG were the colors used by the British at the time. When the planes were flown in the CBI Theater the camo scheme was found to be not right for the area so they changed it to DE/DG. I think the British also painted their Spitfires those colors too in the CBI.

Wayne Beattie

[agboak]

I think the answer lies in standardisation. Rather than mess up (slow, increase costs) the production lines with different requirements from different theatres, aircraft were built/painted in a few standard schemes, in this case the Day Fighter Scheme of DG/OG. It was then up to local commanders to specify changes to meet local, in this case SEAC, requirements. The P-47 OCU was in the Middle East, and aircraft sent there retained the Day Fighter colours.

A similar thing occured with the build standard. Aircraft (e.g B-24s) were built to a common (low) standard, and modification centres were established in the UK and Australia to fit the equipment demanded by the local Air Forces.

There is one other subtelty. There is no good US equivalent for Dark Earth. The closest, and the accepted alternative, was Olive Drab. OD was also the accepted alternative for Dark Green. It is a bit difficult to get a disruptive two-hued camouflage when both colours are Olive Drab.

[Dave Fleming]

There is one other subtelty.  There is no good US equivalent for Dark Earth.  The closest, and the accepted alternative, was Olive Drab.  OD was also the accepted alternative for Dark Green.  It is a bit difficult to get a disruptive two-hued camouflage when both colours are Olive Drab.

Sorry Graham, but that one is a myth that seems to have grown arms and legs in recent years - not helped by someone postulating the same in SAM.

If I can find Dana Bell's primer on export colors, it gives the US versions (Du Pont etc) and equivalent colours for Dark Earth (IIRC before the JAC Equivalence paper, these were Du Pont colours, afterwards there was an ANA color for Dark Earth.)

Found it - British Dark Earth was adopted as ANA 617.

One point he makes is Cutriss listed TWO Du Pont colours for Dark earth - one for Temparate and one for Desert schemes

Edited September 25, 2005 by Dave Fleming

[Dave Fleming]

Roundels and RAF serials were applied at the factory before despatch.

Then why paint it the US equivalent of DG/OG? Why not paint them DE/DG before despatch?

Brad

I often wonder if they WERE painted equivalents - the JAC equivalent (ie substitute, not the same as) colour for Ocean Grey was ANA Sea Gray - which was EXTRA Dark Sea Grey adopted into the US standard. Yet pictures of US painted RAF aircraft always seem to have a lighter grey than Ocean grey??

[Terry McGrady]

Yes Dave

I agree with you . The "Sea Grey " appears much lighter than the "Extra Dark Sea Grey" that some sources would have us believe .

:(

[Brad-M]

I think the answer lies in standardisation. Rather than mess up (slow, increase costs) the production lines with different requirements from different theatres, aircraft were built/painted in a few standard schemes, in this case the Day Fighter Scheme of DG/OG. It was then up to local commanders to specify changes to meet local, in this case SEAC, requirements. The P-47 OCU was in the Middle East, and aircraft sent there retained the Day Fighter colours.

A similar thing occured with the build standard. Aircraft (e.g B-24s) were built to a common (low) standard, and modification centres were established in the UK and Australia to fit the equipment demanded by the local Air Forces.

There is one other subtelty. There is no good US equivalent for Dark Earth. The closest, and the accepted alternative, was Olive Drab. OD was also the accepted alternative for Dark Green. It is a bit difficult to get a disruptive two-hued camouflage when both colours are Olive Drab.

Here's a question which kind of deviates from the original post and I appologize for this, but when did the RAF move from the TLS of DG/DE/Sky to the Day Fighter Scheme of DG/OG/MSG?

Thanks

Brad

[Brad-M]

Roundels and RAF serials were applied at the factory before despatch.

Then why paint it the US equivalent of DG/OG? Why not paint them DE/DG before despatch?

Brad

I often wonder if they WERE painted equivalents - the JAC equivalent (ie substitute, not the same as) colour for Ocean Grey was ANA Sea Gray - which was EXTRA Dark Sea Grey adopted into the US standard. Yet pictures of US painted RAF aircraft always seem to have a lighter grey than Ocean grey??

Here's a question, is there a diffinitive book that outlines in detail the RAF camofluage used for RAF aircraft in all Theaters from 1939-1945?

TIA

Brad