Alex Sidharta Posted October 20, 2005 Share Posted October 20, 2005 Hello,- I have several TA-4 pictures of Indonesian AF Trainer Scooter but can't tell which is TA-4F, TA-4J or TA-4H. One of the maintenance guy told me we used to have those three types. So, anybody can help me on how to tell which is -F, -J, or -H from external side? Thanks <_< Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Koen L Posted October 20, 2005 Share Posted October 20, 2005 (edited) The TA-4H should have the extended exhaust at least. PM me with some serialnumbers otherwise and I can find out which is which. Koen Edited October 20, 2005 by Koen L Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jay Chladek Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 The F and J models when they were used in the USN were essentially identical externally. Only difference was that the J model had a slightly detuned engine compared to the F since it was intended exclusively for training while the F still kept its teeth. Apparently, if the need was there, a J model could be converted to F standard without much effort. If Indonesia didn't do any mods to them except for adding a different paintjob and new antennas, then that should still be the case. USN TA-4Js also typically didn't have the guns installed and instead had faired over gun ports instead (IAF TA-4Js apparently kept the gun mounts though). The TA-4H can be easily identified by its squared off tail fin tip. If Indonesia got all their TA-4s from Israel, then all would probably have the extended tailpipe since the IAF apparently operated all three types. So the only way to tell if a specific plane is an H model would be the tailfin (no exterior differences between the F and J models, or at least none that I know of). Unlike the other Skyhawks in the IAF fleet, the TA-4s didn't get 30mm DEFA cannon armament and they kept the original Colt guns. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alex Sidharta Posted October 21, 2005 Author Share Posted October 21, 2005 The TA-4H should have the extended exhaust at least. PM me with some serialnumbers otherwise and I can find out which is which.Koen Koen, Do you mean Indonesian serial number ? Here they are : - TL-0415 - TL-0416 - TL-0418 - TL-0419 Thanks Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alex Sidharta Posted October 21, 2005 Author Share Posted October 21, 2005 The F and J models when they were used in the USN were essentially identical externally. Only difference was that the J model had a slightly detuned engine compared to the F since it was intended exclusively for training while the F still kept its teeth. Apparently, if the need was there, a J model could be converted to F standard without much effort. If Indonesia didn't do any mods to them except for adding a different paintjob and new antennas, then that should still be the case. USN TA-4Js also typically didn't have the guns installed and instead had faired over gun ports instead (IAF TA-4Js apparently kept the gun mounts though).The TA-4H can be easily identified by its squared off tail fin tip. If Indonesia got all their TA-4s from Israel, then all would probably have the extended tailpipe since the IAF apparently operated all three types. So the only way to tell if a specific plane is an H model would be the tailfin (no exterior differences between the F and J models, or at least none that I know of). Unlike the other Skyhawks in the IAF fleet, the TA-4s didn't get 30mm DEFA cannon armament and they kept the original Colt guns. How about this one ? TA-4J or TA-4F ? It is said that this one was from ex US Navy, retrofitted & upgraded in New Zealand before flown to Indonesia. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Koen L Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 The TA-4H should have the extended exhaust at least. PM me with some serialnumbers otherwise and I can find out which is which.Koen Koen, Do you mean Indonesian serial number ? Here they are : - TL-0415 - TL-0416 - TL-0418 - TL-0419 Thanks TL-0415 - TA-4H TL-0416 - TA-4H TL-0418 - TA-4J TL-0419 - TA-4J Koen Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Superheat Posted October 21, 2005 Share Posted October 21, 2005 Alex, What Jay said concerning the F and J is correct, there is no defining visible external difference between them and they could be, and were, converted back and forth depending on the user, simply by changing the engine. Every T airframe was probably designated as both an F and a J at different points in its career. So in the photo you show, there is no visible way to tell which it was to begin with, other than perhaps by serial number. But if it was refurbished by the Kiwi's (which would account for the square tipped tail), I would bet it was done as an F, since their K was definitely in that class. When the TA-4 was introduced into the Training Command, it was quickly decided that the F was too hot for students to handle safely, so the J with the lower thrust (8500 versus 9300 lbs thrust) -P6a engine was developed specifically for the Training Command. In the training environment, the 10% less thrust of the J was considered an asset, but for USN Fleet users, and for users like Indonesia, whose performance requirements were higher, it was a liability, and my bet would be that all Indonesian T's had P8A's installed and were, therefore in fact F models, though they may have been J's when transferred. Cheers, Tom Quote Link to post Share on other sites
a4s4eva Posted October 22, 2005 Share Posted October 22, 2005 The F and J models when they were used in the USN were essentially identical externally. Only difference was that the J model had a slightly detuned engine compared to the F since it was intended exclusively for training while the F still kept its teeth. Apparently, if the need was there, a J model could be converted to F standard without much effort. If Indonesia didn't do any mods to them except for adding a different paintjob and new antennas, then that should still be the case. USN TA-4Js also typically didn't have the guns installed and instead had faired over gun ports instead (IAF TA-4Js apparently kept the gun mounts though).The TA-4H can be easily identified by its squared off tail fin tip. If Indonesia got all their TA-4s from Israel, then all would probably have the extended tailpipe since the IAF apparently operated all three types. So the only way to tell if a specific plane is an H model would be the tailfin (no exterior differences between the F and J models, or at least none that I know of). Unlike the other Skyhawks in the IAF fleet, the TA-4s didn't get 30mm DEFA cannon armament and they kept the original Colt guns. How about this one ? TA-4J or TA-4F ? It is said that this one was from ex US Navy, retrofitted & upgraded in New Zealand before flown to Indonesia. IIRC these were J's Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alex Sidharta Posted October 22, 2005 Author Share Posted October 22, 2005 :wacko: I believe it is correct that TL-0415 & 16 are TA-4H as they have square fin top & longer exhaust. Still, the main question remains. TL-0418 & 19 are TA-4J or F ? Or one -F and one -J. But it seems unlogical to buy 2 aircrafts from different types, but who knows ? A friend of mine who maintenance the Skyhawk said that those last two Trainer Skyhawk were different each other because certain parts of the engines were not interchangeable.... :wacko: Anyway, thanks for the infos, Guys ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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