B-24 Radar Ant.

[jetmanf14]

Hey I know I posted on here awhile back on the colors of the B-24, just thought I would let everyone know that the model is coming along, still looking for a place to make custom decals for the bird, it has real nice nose-art, and there are some things I can't find anywhere else. But as for scrath building some things, I was wondering if anyone had any pictures of the Radar Antennas on the left side of the plane, near the front. And I also wanted to ask if anyone knows if there are more antennas on the plane, and if the ball turret was taken out. Sorry for the load of questions, just wanting to make this plane look good. Thanks for any replies.

Paul

P.S. I know my grandfather's plane (the one I am building) had the radar in it, I just haven't found pictures of the antenni (I'm pretty sure that's how you do it) on the plane. Thanks again.

Oh and another BTW, the plane was a B-24J, 14th AF, 308th BG, 425th BS.

Edited December 17, 2005 by jetmanf14

[Eduard]

Try antennae?

:blink:

greetings,

Eduard.

[P-38 guy]

Is this the type your talking about?

Mike

[jetmanf14]

Sorry, I hate words like that. But yes that is the exact one I was talking about, except I saw it on the other side of the plane. I knew you would have some pictures Mike, like ya did last time. That helps me see at least the exact point where it connects and such. Is that the only antenna for the radar? I was reading and I read something about taking out the ball turret, and I had no idea. Well thanks again for that pic, that's the antenna!

Paul

[don f]

Paul,

The antenna circled in the image and the antenna near the lady's foot were used with the Radio Set, SCR-729. Here what it did:

"AIRBORNE MARK III IFF INTERROGATOR-RESPONDOR", SCR-729 This series (English Rebecca/Eureka) was a transmitting/receiving set (not a radar) that was used to trigger responses from radar beacons (RACON), blind landing systems, tactical troop support sets, ships, IFF equipment on other airplanes, etc. In itself, it was not an IFF set. This equipment would transmit a signal at about 176mc/sec. Since transmitting and receiving antennas were symmetrically mounted on both sides of the airplane’s nose (attached), the triggered response was received by the host airplane as directional. Range could be determined from the time base: a very flexible navigation system that is not often given the credit it deserves, and is nearly always misidentified in nose art photos by "experts" !!!

[jetmanf14]

Oh so those are not associated with the radar? And only certain planes in the group had them? Makes sense, but then where is all of the radar equipment? Thanks for the info, that helps alot.

Paul

[P-38 guy]

I'll have to do some checking but I've seen pictures of Navy PB4Y's with a small radar dome that came out from where the ball turret was. I would have to guess that something like that was used on AAF B-24's.

Mike

[wdolson]

Oh so those are not associated with the radar? And only certain planes in the group had them? Makes sense, but then where is all of the radar equipment? Thanks for the info, that helps alot.

Paul

You may be thinking about the BTO (Bombing Through Overcast) equipment. Some B-24s and B-17s were modified in an attempt to find targets that were socked in by removing the ball turret and putting a radome there. On the B-24 it retracted, while on the B-17 it was fixed.

Bill

[jetmanf14]

That isn't it though, at least I do not believe that is all of it. They were installed with the LAB equipment, which may have the same radar in the Ball turret, but I am not sure. According to Chennault's Forgotten Warriors, by Carroll V. Glines, in regard to training for LAB, "This was accomplished by combining the top secret Norden bombsight with a small radar scope connected to a large radarscope located in the middle of the plane. Substituting radar traces on a screen for the cross hairs of the Norden sight, runs could be made on targets at sea in total darkness." and it also says "In addition to the installation of low altitude radio altimeters, a newly-developed drift meter that was especially reliable at low altitudes, plus the latest radar, the J models had additional gas tanks installed in their bomb bays which gave them more than fifteen hours of range if cruise control techniques were followed. Since they were to fly at extremely low altitudes, the belly turrets were removed."

Sorry lots there, but I don't know if that meant the radar was there or what, sorry again for the long reply.

Paul

[don f]

Paul,

The radar installation in the Low Altitude Bomber (LAB) SB-24 was the Airborne Surface Search Radar, SCR-717B. The parabolic antenna of this sytem was located in a housing that replaced the belly ball turret. Another part of this sytem was the AN/ARN-1 radar altimeter. The antennae for the radar altimeter were a pair of small "hook" shaped antennae mounted on the bomb bay centerline. The antennae appear to have located mid-point of the forward and rear bomb bays.

Tell me more of your grandfather's service. I thought that all of the 14AF radar equipped B-24's were part of the Hopson Project. These aircraft had a red painted rudder and reportedly were known as the "Red A s s Outfit".

Don

[jetmanf14]

The Hopson Project? I had never heard of that. Were they from one specific squadron? He (my grandfather) was from the 425th Bomb Squadron. He won the Distinguished Flying Cross with two clusters, and the Air medal with one cluster. According to an old newspaper he was regarded as "Fearless Freddie" and he is officially credited with 4 merchantment sunk, plus a merchantman and a submarine probably sunk. He came back to the U.S. to teach other bombardiers. The plane was the Monsoon Maiden, and in the book Flight in the China Air Space: 1910-1950, by Malcolm Rosholt, it is listed as one of the first LAB's. It is very interesting, I just wish there was a lot more out there on it.

Paul

Edited December 18, 2005 by jetmanf14

[don f]

Paul,

I am grateful for your grandfather's service. My father served in the CBI as well. Here's some more info on LAB:

"Bell Labs began work on LAB in July 1942. In itself, LAB, which was formally designated the "AN/APQ-5", was a control system that could be integrated with various types of centimetric radars. LAB was integrated with the aircraft's autopilot and bomb-release system. On the attack run, the bombardier kept the radar on target and synchronized with the aircraft's flight speed by turning knobs. A horizontal line moved up the PPI display as the aircraft moved toward the target, and the bombs were automatically released when the line met the target centered in the display.

The first aircraft carrying preproduction LABs, modified Consolidated Liberators known as "Snoopers", reached service in the South Pacific in August 1943. They used LAB with the new SCR-717 radar, and the system proved extremely effective, with bombers roaring in on Japanese ships in the night at a few hundred meters and blowing them out of the water. Said one Snooper pilot: "We flew in the dark most of the time and we'd attack at about eight hundred or a thousand feet, and you couldn't miss at that altitude, you know."

* While the Americans built improved AI and ASV radars, they also built improved radar altimeters. The early SCR-518 led to the "SCR-718C", which was lighter and more reliable, as well as the "AN/APN-1", which was a low-altitude radio altimeter.

Since low-altitude operation requires a high pulse repetition rate and so an increased tendency to pick up ghost echoes, the AN/APN-1 was a continuous-wave radar. It could determine range because it generated a "frequency modulated" signal which sent out a low frequency and ramped up to a high frequency, over and over again in a cycle, allowing the interval of the echo to be determined."

The training for the LAB crews was conducted at Langley Field, Va. The LAB project was a very well kept secret. Even now, little is known of the electronic warfare conducted during WWII. To my knowledge, three groups of crews went through the training program. They were named after their commanding officers - Wright Project (Col. Stuart Wright), Scott Project (Maj. Edward Scott) and the Hopson Project (Col. William Hopson). The twenty or so crews and aircraft with the Hopson Project were sent to the CBI, joining the 308BG. I have not read Glines' 308BG book completely. I'm reading it cover-to-cover this time. Apparently the Hopson Project aircraft were reassigned to each of the squadrons in the 308BG. Which of the pilots of "Monsoon Maiden" mentioned in Glines' book was your grandfather? Any chance that you can post images of this aircraft?

Don

[jetmanf14]

Oh sorry, he actually isn't mentioned in the book. He was the bombardier of the plane, and we are actually trying to see if he switched to another plane while over there. His first plane we believe was the Monsoon Maiden, and it actually isn't in that book, I think because there were no pictures of it. Some of the pilot recolections though are in the Flight in the China Airspace book. It as well is a good read. Thanks again, and I too am thankful for your father's service, and everyone's. They did risk many things.

Paul

[Hawk10]

A bunch of years ago, I worked for a gentlemen who owned the only flying B-24 (at that time) - He had bought it surplus from the Indian Air Force - It was a former RAF Mk VIII which had orgionaly been delivered to the IAF with the Mickey Radar - by the time we got it, it had been removed and the opening sheeted over - there was still a switch at the engineers station marked "Radome - Extend/Retracted" - and the last I knew Kermit Weeks owned that particular B-24 - unfortuantely it had been grounded due to extensive corrosion problems.

[jetmanf14]

Hawk that may be the same fit where the radar was, but I am not sure. That would be awesome if it still flew today. Regarding the picture, I had it somewhere before on here, but if no one minds, I am going to post it again. I need a new scanner to scan the book picture of the Maiden, it is much bigger.

This one has my grandfather in it, on the very left bottom, but the book picture does not have him in it, he missed it.

Paul

[don f]

Paul,

Thanks for posting the image. Really would like to see the other image of "Monsoon Maiden" as well. Concerning the radar installation, there is no doubt that the parabolic dish antenna for the SCR-717B was housed in a radome installed in the space normally occupied by the ball turret. Most likely that the shape of the housing was very similar to if not exactly like that of the BTO installation. I have a drawing showing the details of the electronics and SCR-717 installation in a B-24D. There is at least one published image of a 308BG Snooper with a warning stencilled on the airframe "Do Not Taxi With Radome Extended. Do Not Operate With Radome Retracted." If you are building a 1/48 scale model, I recall that Paragon had a resin radome. In 1/72, I don't recall if there is an aftermarket resin radome. Perhaps someone here knows if such an item was produced.

Merry Christmas!

Don

[wdolson]

I don't know if the new Paragon has re-released the radome or not, but the 1/48 BTO radome was in their catalog before they closed up shop a few years ago.

Bill

[jetmanf14]

Thanks for the info, I am building a 1/72 scale though. I plan on just putting the turret in, but retracted, and painted over, or maybe even the space just left empty. I knew I should have bought the 1/48!

Paul

[Oweng]

I know this is a little late to be joining this conversation, but I hope one of you will still see it. I am looking for any information on my grandfather's plane. It, too, was the Monsoon Maiden. In fact he is pictured in that picture that Paul provided. He is in the back left. If any of you can tell me anything about this plane or how I can come into contact with any of the surviving members, I would be eternally grateful. Also, I too would like to find a accurate model of this plane and a old or modern picture of one of these planes in flight.

Thanks,

Owen

[Steve N]

Welcome, Owen!

A couple of photos of Monsoon Maiden can be found here on B24BestWeb.

SN

[gmat]

Paul,

Just saw this thread. Although the early SB-24Ds as used by the Wright (394th BS, 5th BG, later 868th BS, 13th AF) and Scott projects (63rd BS, 43rd BG, 5th AF) had the radar replacing the belly turret, later versions, perhaps from late 44 and starting at least with L and M models moved the radar to forward of the bomb bay. I think that each Air Force had some aircraft. In the 14th AF, it was the 308th BG. The 7th AF also got some. The 42nd BS, 11th BG (Mike Project) was partially equipped with B-24Js and Ls. Wild Geese calling, the 11th BG book, tells of the SCR-717 located ahead of the bomb bay. I believe that in areas where the threat of fighter interception was greater, they moved the radar to the forward location and kept the belly gun opening for a hand held gun mount. The best photos of the forward radar location are in Al Lloyd's Liberator - America's Global Bomber. One of the photos in that book is of an RAAF B-24L-10-CO, A72-116.(44-41631) You can see that the opening is larger than the diameter of the radar and is offset to the left. It is about the same diameter as the ball turret. Another photo of A72-118 shows the radome extended. This radome is different from the thimble shaped radome as provided in the Minicraft PB4Y-1 kit. It is wider and the bottom is more flat. Page 108 has a cutaway drawing of a Ferret B-24 which also shows the location and details of the SCR-717C in the forward location.

A27-116

http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/ima...withotu_500.jpg

from Truscott Historical Gallery Go to panel 5.

http://www.shorelands.com.au/sa_gallery.html

You may know of this site, it has some information on sea search radar on USN and USAAF aircraft. Unfortunately, it only shows the older belly turret location.

http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/radar-10.htm

Best wishes,

Grant

Edited June 17, 2009 by gmat

[gmat]

Paul,

These are cutaway drawings of an ELINT B-24J, but the location of the SCR-717 is the same as on late Far East SB-24Ls and Ms.

From Al Lloyd's Liberator, America's Global Bomber.

Best wishes,

Grant

Edited June 19, 2009 by gmat

[hoot54]

My dad flew night bombing mission single ship and his plane had the radar in the bottom turret. They trained at Langley, VA and it was a secret mission the time. Be glad to talk about it more.

TR-803-359-0005

[jetmanf14]

I'm sorry I'm getting to this so late, I haven't even thought to check on here until a search on google pulled it up. Thank you so much for the cutaway and the information! Surprisingly, the model is not finished, but once all of this information is gathered, I hope to get it done soon. I talked to my family and one of the places he was stationed before going overseas was Langley. Coincidence? I would love any information on this, it is very fascinating. I'm currently not at home, as it is my senior year in college and modelling has taken a slight backseat to homework and work, but just to get the information is very helpful. Thanks again!

[Memag08]

Hawk that may be the same fit where the radar was, but I am not sure. That would be awesome if it still flew today. Regarding the picture, I had it somewhere before on here, but if no one minds, I am going to post it again. I need a new scanner to scan the book picture of the Maiden, it is much bigger.

This one has my grandfather in it, on the very left bottom, but the book picture does not have him in it, he missed it.

Paul

I am wondering if anyone can read the names. I am particularly interested in the back row, 2nd man from the left. My Uncle Wilbert R. Wallace was supposed to have been a tail gunner on the Monsoon Maiden. That man looks a lot like him and it almost looks like it could say Wallace on the last name but I can't make out the first name at all. Also afraid I may just be hoping it is him, so seeing what I hope it says. Can anyone tell? Thank you!