RedStar Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 Greetings Friends! :unsure: Thus far I've been hijacking the threads that have been LONG running (since late 2004 and early 2005 respectively) - This includes what I call the "Zacto" thread and then Geedubeleyer's build. The notes in these threads have made for some of the more spectactular modeling references that I've ever seen - not only in terms of the quality of pictures of the prototypes, but then also spectactular modeling skills displayed, and lessons learned from those projects. If you're considering building the big Flanker, these threads should be reviewed thoroughly! I made a 75 page document summarizing the salient points and collecting the invaluable reference pictures. These were based on the needs of my project - your needs may vary.... It's been pretty well documentented what the issues are with the kit - I break those issues into major shape problems and then minor corrections/upgrades. These have been debated pretty thoroughly in the other threads, so this is based on my own view/project: Major Issues: 1) Canopy Shape - The kit canopy stands too tall from the forward fuselage, making the whole nose look like a characature. Aside from being to tall, in profile, the shape is incorrect as well - the windscreen should have a straight/flat slope in profile - the kit's windscreen has a convex profile. This problem is duplicated in the rear section of the main canopy. Correction - Fortunately the Zactomodels replacement canopy is as close to a perfect fit for this as possible. The shapes are perfect, the vac canopy is as crystal clear as ANY that I've seen - and the details for the canopy hinge/riser detail is second to none. With the addition of this set, this major issue is easily checked off the list. 2) Nose Shape/Length - The length of the model is off by nearly half an inch, and almost a scale foot. This takes away from the graceful lines of the aircraft giving the model a "stumpy" appearance. Correction - Again Zactomodels comes to the rescue - with a beautifully turned and super-detailed replacement, you can swap out the nose piece of the model with a resin replacement. The panel line details have to be seen to be believed. Some very minor surgery is involved to get the nose to fit, but it's nothing that should present a big challenge for most modelers. 3) Intake Width and profile - The kit intakes, while superbly tooled as one piece affairs, have shape problems in both width and profile. While the intake width isn't noticable until you compare to photos and plans, the profile is BADLY off. The bottom line of the Flanker should be near flat/straight. The kit intakes have a pronounced downward slope (to the front) - where this manifests itself as most noticable is if you attach the under intake missiles - the steering fins nearly touch the "ground." While this is partly to do with the missiles being off in their dimensions, it is almost MORE to do with the forward/down slope of the lower intake profile. Correction - And for a THIRD time Zactomodels is the answer - although this one we're still waiting for (for not much longer though) - sooner or later we're going to have to get that guy the cape that we've joked about! Zacto's intakes not only correct all the shape issues, they include full, correct intake trunk details, and a corrected front compressor face for the engine - AND - FOD screens to fit the new wider (and more correct) front profile. These should be superb. 4) Missiles - Finally we get to the kit's weapons. When I first looked at the test shot for the unreleased 1/32 Flanker, the first thing that I noticed was that the missiles were BADLY misshapen - particularly the R-27s (AA-10s) - for each variant, the missile bodies begin tapering behind where the steering fins attach, and taper evenly all the way to the nose cone. The real R-27 bodies are straight sided, except around the fuse area (immediately forward of the steering fins) which has a VERY slight taper. In addition to the body shape problems, the fins are oversized and incorrectly shaped. They pretty much are unsalvagable. Correction - Sadly this is the one area of this kit that has not been addressed, and may end up being my contribution to the further building of the 1/32 Su-27 (there is a UB coming!) - as I intend to scratch build the missiles. We'll save that for a later post. The Minor Issues / Corrections / Accurizations / Super Detail Opportunities This is where some of you may depart - but those of us that have been studying this project for a while, or participating in the other main Flanker threads have noticed a number of other areas where the kit can be improved. 1) Wing Tip Missile Rails - As Flankerman Ken has shown - the kit supplied wing tip rails are incorrectly shaped. There is a good picture provided in the Zacto thread - I'll include it when we get to the right point in this thread. 2) Port Fin Intake - the aux intake at the base of the port vertical fin is incorrectly shaped/sized - it is different from the intake on the stbd fin. From what I can tell, this change is variant/construction specific - possibly earlier Flankers had symmetrical intakes, and later had the changed port intake. Once I choose my markings (likely to be an arctic Flanker from FoP2) - I'll verify the intake correction based on the specific airframe that I'm buiding. 3) Cockpit/Ejection Seat - Trumpeter hasn't been able to do much for a cockpit yet, and the Flanker is no exception. Given the large scale of the model, the cockpit is very visible, and the spotty detail of the kit parts would definitely show. Resin replacements abound on this front, with cockpits available from both Black Box and Aires. 4) Nose Landing Gear - The kit's nose landing gear is actually very nice, featuring 12+ parts - that for a lot of people would capture the look just fine. The one major issue is the nose gear mud/FOD guard. The kit part is not terribly accurate and needs replacing - the Eduard set offers replacements for the sides of the guard, so this can be corrected with available aftermarket. Additionally, the wiring for the landing lights and nose gear hydraulics can be added, as they are not represented. 5) Main Landing Gear - The kit's main landing gear are adequate, although there are a number of details that are missing. The main inaccuracy lies with the inner wheel hubs - the kit parts bear no resemblance to the real thing. There is an inner plate that is fixed (relative to the spin of hte wheels) - it acts as the mounting plate for a number of hydralic and brake systems. None of these details are present, nor are the actual hydraulic lines. Secondly the scissor links are inaccurate. The kit represents the scissor links as "A-Frame" style, and on the real aircraft, they are a sort of "Y" shape. While Contact Resine offers replacement wheels, they are no improvement over the kit parts, and do not address the incorrect inner wheels. These details/corrections will have to be scratch built. 6) Landing Gear Wells - the landing gear wells are also under-detailed - considering the large scale of the model. AiRes does offer replacement wheel wells - they are spectacular - however, they only cover the actual wheel wells - for the MLG bays, there are significant portions of the wells that are left unatteneded - particularly where the struts retract. Any details here will have to be scratchbuilt - including the very complex fueling system. 7) The Attachment of the Horizontal Stablizors - in order to display the horizontals in the typical tail down position, the attachment points and actuator details will have to be modified. 8) Various vents and similar - there are a number of smaller details, vents, exhausts, and similar that need to be added - these will be specifically documented as the project proceeds. That pretty much warps up the intial view of the kit and what will need to be done. I'll go two more posts in this introduction - the next will look at where I'm starting with the project. Looking forward to sharing! Paul Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RedStar Posted February 8, 2006 Author Share Posted February 8, 2006 Here's what I'm starting with: Trumpeter 1/32 Su-27 Flanker-B - TRP2224 AiRes 1/32 Su-27 Cockpit Detail Set - ARS2026 AiRes 1/32 Su-27 Wheel Well Set - ARS2030 AiRes 1/32 Su-27 Exhaust Set - ARS2032 Black Box Combat Series 1/32 Su-27 Cockpit BBXCS32022 Quickboost 1/32 Su-27 Ejection Seat - QB32004 Eduard 1/32 Su-27 Pre-painted Interior Photoetched Set - EDU32536 Eduard 1/32 Su-27 Exterior Photoetched Set - EDU32137 Eduard 1/32 Su-27 Ejection Seat Pre-painted Photoetched Set - EDU32537 Zactomodels 1/32 Su-27 Canopy Correction & Detail Set Zactomodels 1/32 Su-27 Nose Correction Zactomodels 1/32 Su-27 Intake Correction Linden Hill Decals 1/32 Flankers on Patrol - The Guardians of the North - LHD32001 Linden Hill Decals 1/32 Flankers on Patrol - From Sun up to Sun Down - LHD32002 Linden Hill Decals 1/32 Su-27 Technical Stenciling - LHD32003 A couple of notes - as some of these items may seem superfluous. I have both cockpits, and intend on combining the best of both. I like the Aires tub better, as well as their instrument shround/coaming. Some of the smaller details of the BBX set are better, so those will be intermixed around the Aires parts. The Quickboost seat is not yet available, but should be soon. Quickboost is an AiRes subsidiary, the coming seat will be based on the parts included in the current AiRes cockpit, but will include molded on seat harness details. Depending on how this looks when it's released, I may or many not include it - the BBX seat and adding the photo-etched parts to the Aires seats are both good back-up alternatives. The Eduard cockpit details and ejection seat details are largely included as reference. The Eduard sets are a good representation of how the cockpit should look if masterfully painted. Personally, I don't care for the pre-painted sets as I think they end up looking flat, but they are good references for what the painted details look like shrunk down to scale. Finally on the decals - I'm leaning toward an arctic Flanker - mostly because I like the weathering possibilities. This is something that I'll likely flip flop on until the very end when I get down to painting the airframe. There is actually one gap that has been noted in the decal market for this aircraft, that being pylon and missile decals. The LH Su-27 Stencils are superb for the airframe - they cover every inch in superb detail. Unfortunately they did not include pylon stencils. The kit stencils attempt to re-create the pylon stencils, but represent these as only lines - not the cyrillic stencils... So that's basically ground zero for the project. Thanks! Paul Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KursadA Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 And all this comes at the very reasonable price of $455, assuming a very optimistic $20 for the intake set! Are these great times for the hobby, or what? :unsure: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
loftycomfort Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 And all this comes at the very reasonable price of $455, assuming a very optimistic $20 for the intake set! Are these great times for the hobby, or what? :unsure: and that's not including paints and masking tape and such. when i built my 1/32 flanker in the splinter camo, the paints and tamiya tape i used cost close to $100! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RedStar Posted February 8, 2006 Author Share Posted February 8, 2006 And all this comes at the very reasonable price of $455, assuming a very optimistic $20 for the intake set! Are these great times for the hobby, or what? Well just depends on perspective - first off, it's my choice to go that route on this project - I'm sure that the total cost will be closer to $1000, by the time to figure in all the extra evergreen, paint, supplies, and more that will invariably go into this project. Those products have been purchased over the course of a year or so, and therefore it was spread out, and never a big hit on the wallet. That being said, I'm sure that my time on this project may exceed 300 hours - at that rate, the price per hour of entertainment is roughly $1.50 - comparitively speaking, it's a good deal. Secondly, some of the extras in the project will be left over and sold off afterwards - it's likely that I won't use ONE piece of the Eduard interior set - so that money can be at least partially recovered. I'm having fun with this, as are others - I know that most of the other builds that have been discussed on these boards have gone that route as well. I'm going to enjoy this, and my point in posting the list was to show where I was starting from, not to discuss the expense.... Paul Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dimosthenis Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 (edited) Paul, Can't blame you about the hefty amount of extra stuff, as I am an 'offender' too, serial if I may add to that... Wish you the best with your build, and do keep us updated! It's very promising! Edited February 8, 2006 by Dimosthenis Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AnthonyWan Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 Great to see someone else building the Flanker, lol I have yet to even get a kit!!! Cant wait to see your build thread. If you use something partialy and want to get rid of it afterwards, I am interested. Good luck Anthony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hemi Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 Paul,I also have a Flanker box stuffed with resin goodies and I look forward to watching your build.If you dont have the Flanker DVD I highly recomend getting it. Mark Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RedStar Posted February 9, 2006 Author Share Posted February 9, 2006 Paul,I also have a Flanker box stuffed with resin goodies and I look forward to watching your build.If you dont have the Flanker DVD I highly recomend getting it. Mark I definitely have Kasatka's DVD - it's one of the centerpoints of this project! Haven't covered the reference list yet, but that's right at the top. Been watching the other threads for more than a year, so I was one of the first to get the DVD! I agree it's excellent! Paul Quote Link to post Share on other sites
geedubelyer Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 (edited) Good on ya Paul, welcome to "Flankertown" :lol: This promises to be a most entertaining and informative build so I'll be watching with keen interest I too follow a similar path with the aftermarket stuff. I tend to only build maybe one kit a year and since I'll be the one staring at it once it's complete, I like it to hold my attention and give me pleasure long after the paint has dried. With this in mind, I prefer my kits to appear as realistic looking and detailled as poss. Usually, this involves alot of aftermarket resin, photo-etch and often decals too. I suspect that KursadA was commenting more on the general cost of modelling rather than your specific build though Paul. When we start adding aftermarket items the cost inevitably rises. There are many modellers who will baulk at the idea of investing this amount in one model but they won't think twice about having a stash of models that would shame a hobby store or turning out umpteen models per month. When you add up that cost over a year it's probably twice what the likes of us spend....... Horses for courses I guess ;) Anyway, having said all that, enjoy your build, have fun and let's see plenty of updates to keep us all entertained, eh? Bon chance. Edited February 9, 2006 by geedubelyer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
blackhorse Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 Paul, I'm also looking forward to your build. Are the Zacto Intakes for sale yet?? I've got a lot of the other items you note as aftermarket but have been waiting for the Zacto Intakes so I can buy all of Chris' parts at one time. Thx, Brian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RedStar Posted February 9, 2006 Author Share Posted February 9, 2006 The Zacto intakes are not out yet, but are close - His progress thread is in the Jet Modeling section, you can keep up to date with the latest there.... On the update front, add another $25.00 to the project - I bought a pile of strip stock last night to get my "small sizes" stacks replenished... I hope to have the eight wheel mounted devices (master cylinders, hydraulic pumps and what not) as well as the new scissor links done over the weekend - those are the pieces that are the "scary" part of getting the MLG detailed... Anyone know what those boxes are? I'll try to post a picture here with arrows to show what I'm talking about. Paul Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wasserfall Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 Welcome Paul!!! Can't wait to see some pics of your build!!! (my own build is a bit slow at the moment, so you inspire me to get started again) You really hit the nail, with the shortcomings of this kit, i was planning to build it right out of the box but when i looked closer, no way Gose!! so many inaccurate things to solve. So if we want it to look like a Flanker it is going to cost us some more (didn't add up what i already bought :P ) I will be watching!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Williams Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Sounds good, Paul. I'm also witing on the Quickboost seat and the Zactoman intakes (have all of the other stuff you have). I'll probably use the Aires pit (correctly repositioning the throttles), but don't want to mess with the PE belts on their seat. But you are right, the cost adds up quickly to "fix" and detail this kit. Right now I'm workings on a 1/32 Tamiya F-15C with the BB pit, CE exhausts, PWMP intake covers, Isracast Python 4s, Paragon Elta 8222 ECM pod, Sky's Decals for IDF F-15s, and Two Bobs missile markings, and the money invested for that project seems like a bargain compared to what I've bought for the Flanker. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RedStar Posted February 13, 2006 Author Share Posted February 13, 2006 O.K. so I made some good progress today, I got the eight wheel hub devices roughed together. There's some contouring and similar left to do, but that will be easy compared to the 10-16 pieces that went into each small item... I took a couple of pictures, but couldn't get up close enough to get any real detail... I'll post the general views later... I did just post a question about attaching items to a motor tool for milling purposes - it's in the tools & techniques forum - if anyone has any input it's most definitely welcome. I need to figure out how to symmetrically re-contour the inner hub - sort of like what geedubeleyer did in his build. But I can't figure out how to get the hub firmly attached and centered on the dremel attachment. Pictures shortly... Thanks! Paul Quote Link to post Share on other sites
geedubelyer Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 (edited) Hi Paul , Things sound to be going well, I'm looking forward to seeing a couple of pics later. I've also given some thought to your power tool problems. Forgive me for mussing up your thread with a tatty sketch but could you do something like this? : When I used the drill, I mounted the wheel onto a nut & bolt between a pair of washers. This kept the wheel tight as it spun, allowing me to hollow it out. If the bolt is a little thin, perhaps you could use a length of plastic tube to fit the collett better. As an alternative, use a thicker bolt, hollow out the wheel centre to fit and then use a collar on the wheel axle to allow it to fit properly. (The fitting of the wheel centre is likely to be hidden by the backplate.) HTH p.s.. I can edit the post and remove the sketch once you've got the idea, if you like. Edited February 13, 2006 by geedubelyer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RedStar Posted February 13, 2006 Author Share Posted February 13, 2006 Naw - keep it there, that's exactly what I need to see - although I'm wondering if my dremel has a big enough opening - I may have to switch over to my drill, just will take some playing around - and perhaps a trip to the Home Depot on the way home - with the drawing in tow! That's the kind of stuff that I like to see - once you see my own crazy drawings, you'll understand that you and I think very much alike... For whatever reason, I was struggling to get my head wrapped around how to get that part spinning... Cheers and Thanks! Paul P.S. - I gotta get the next cull going, as I need that lathe/mill! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Zactoman Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Correction - And for a THIRD time Zactomodels is the answer - although this one we're still waiting for (for not much longer though) - sooner or later we're going to have to get that guy the cape that we've joked about! Zactoman! Looking forward to your build Paul (and pics!)! Sounds like you're going all-out on this one. Awesome! And all this comes at the very reasonable price of $455, assuming a very optimistic $20 for the intake set! Are these great times for the hobby, or what? You don't have to add any of the aftermarket stuff, or decals for that matter. I've seen the model built out of the box with nice construction and a good paint-job and it looked great, but being a Flanker fan, and having studied the plane as much as I have, I want better. Because it's the only kit available in this scale, and it's got some problems, aftermarket or scratchbuilding is the only solution available. I am willing to pay these amounts because I want an accurate show-piece model to display. Honestly, I wish the kit manufacturers would provide that quality of accuracy and detail right out of the box considering how expensive these kits are to start with. I wish I could sell my intakes for as little as $20, but I'd end up homeless. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RedStar Posted February 13, 2006 Author Share Posted February 13, 2006 Me I'm just happy to have the kit, I think somewhere in there we have to take into consideration that there is a price point where the kit wouldn't sell to the non-ultra serious builder. For the price, I think the nose, canopy and intakes should be correct, but I'm not worried about the cockpit, or similar, as many modelers would be fine with those items as they are... As for $20 intakes - I certainly wasn't expecting that... I'm thinking of a pretty high number, we'll see where the final price ends up. Gotta figure out how to get better pictures, so that might hold up photography for a little while... There's no way to get close enough with my current crap digital camera (from the Victory Models days for taking product photos).... Yet another item to replace at some point... I want feedback too, so I'm anxious to get them up there! Paul Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LST01 Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 I'm also witing on the Quickboost seat and the Zactoman intakes (have all of the other stuff you have). I'll probably use the Aires pit (correctly repositioning the throttles), but don't want to mess with the PE belts on their seat. Uhm, have I missed something with the throttles? :) Cheers! LS Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RedStar Posted February 15, 2006 Author Share Posted February 15, 2006 The throttles in the Aires set are a separate part. According to the instruction diagram, they would have you place the throttle slide on the outer angled panel of the port console. That would be incorrect, the throttle slide assembly should be on the port sidewall, above the port console. Nothing horrible, just a mistake in the instructions. Any decent reference shows this very clearly, so if you're paying attention to your references, you'd have probably caught the mistake without anyone telling you. Cheers! Paul Quote Link to post Share on other sites
geedubelyer Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 (edited) Hi Paul, I hope you don't mind me butting in. If you have n't already tried it, you might find that it's worth trying the throttles in the suggested place before you mount them on the sidewall. I think you may be pleasantly surprised. I looked at a number of reference pics but once the throttles are mounted they seem to appear correct. Here's a reminder to show what I mean: . The way that the parts are designed makes them appear fixed to the sidewall once everything is assembled. HTH Edited February 16, 2006 by geedubelyer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AnthonyWan Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 Holy ****. Is that the Aires cockpit? For a sec, it looked like the picture i have in my book here of the real thing Anthony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wasserfall Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 Holy ****. Is that the Aires cockpit? For a sec, it looked like the picture i have in my book here of the real thing :blink: Anthony Don't let him fool you, it is the real SU27 cockpit :D Man i love that pit :D Quote Link to post Share on other sites
doctorpepper Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 man alive! you should get a VIP discount card for the things you're planning to buy/have already bought! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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