Why Does It Take 3 Cylons...

[Felinoid]

Probably been asked thousands of times before but...

In the original Battlestar Galactica series, why does it take three Cylons to fly a fighter, when it only takes one human to do the same job ?

Any answer will do-a real one, a punchline ...anything. Get creative.

The real question is, why do these robots want planets with atmospheres that contain oxygen, which promotes rust!

Felinoid

[phantom]

Dammit Jim, Im a doctor, not a moon shuttle conductor, how the CRAP would I know?

[BAM'n'IVM]

Pilot, navigator and weapons operator/gunner? More likely, mission commander, pilot and WSO?

Maybe they're all networked together and it (according to Cylon Tech Support) makes them more efficient than a single human?

Maybe Cylons get lonely on long missions, and need the moral support - I hear they go to the bathroom in groups, too...

Anyway, I always saw the Cylon Raiders as fighter/bombers where the Vipers were pure aerospace superiority fighters. So a three member crew didn't seem that odd when you compare the two, especially when you consider that individual Cylon warriors were shown to have limited decision-making ability without a command centurion to tell them what to do.

Yup, I'm a geek.

[Grey Ghost 531]

They're robots, right? Just mobile computers. Don't modern fly-by-wire aircraft use triple redundancy in their flight control computers?

[phantom]

There was a sale. :)

Buy 1 get 2 free.

[Alvis 3.1]

It comes down to the side to side scanner eyes. The slow scan rate precludes a Cylon from actually looking at an object in motion correctly. By the time a second scan occurs, the object has moved (usually) and thus the Cylon misses it. How else do you explain their terrible marksmanship? By putting 3 in a cockpit, they would be linked into a more efficient scanning system and actually be able to hit something, as well as fly and land with less crashes!

Another weird Original Series BSG question: Why did the guns on Galactica take 3 shots to hit the cylon ships flying past? They are light beam weapons, shouldn't they not have a "lead" time issue? Best answer I have is that the Cylon Raiders had a good jamming system that confused the gun radars of Galactica.

Then there's why the original series Vipers had to bank in a vacuum...

Or how anyone could fly a Viper with lights shining in their faces? (That pertains to the new series as well..YOU try shining a flashlight in your face at night and see how well you can see anything else!)

Oh gad zooks, methinks I've blown my anti-geek cover!

Alvis 3.1

Edited April 4, 2006 by Alvis 3.1

[The_Animal]

Pilot, navigator and weapons operator/gunner? More likely, mission commander, pilot and WSO?

Maybe they're all networked together and it (according to Cylon Tech Support) makes them more efficient than a single human?

Maybe Cylons get lonely on long missions, and need the moral support - I hear they go to the bathroom in groups, too...

Anyway, I always saw the Cylon Raiders as fighter/bombers where the Vipers were pure aerospace superiority fighters. So a three member crew didn't seem that odd when you compare the two, especially when you consider that individual Cylon warriors were shown to have limited decision-making ability without a command centurion to tell them what to do.

Yup, I'm a geek.

Command Centurions I believe had two brains. The Imperious Leader had 3.

There was a sale.

Buy 1 get 2 free.

In best mechanical voice: "Cylons are not subject to human rituals such as sales:" :blink:

Edited April 4, 2006 by The_Animal

[mkimages]

Remember, that was the 80's and those were Cylon v1.0; only 512K memory. Once they broke the 1 MB barrier with the upgradeable chips, the extra two became unnecessary. Upgrades continued until the latest version, Cylon X (code name "Daggit") pioneered the Centurion/Raider integration concept, allowing the phase-out of the separate pilots altogether.

[helyun302]

Don't modern fly-by-wire aircraft use triple redundancy in their flight control computers?

The Viper and -117 uses quad redundant FBW. Not sure about other aircraft.

helyun

[Jay Chladek]

Well, according to Galactica TOS, two Cylons are needed for flight control while the third in back gives orders. Baltar's fighter showed this arrangement in "The Living Legend". Apparently they really have to coordinate their flying too as a Raider seems like a Lear 20 where it needs both pilot and copilot to fly as opposed to say a Cessna Citation jet. A Galactica board game I have in my collection also says that two Cylons are needed for flight with the third acting as a backup, able to step in if one of the others gets into trouble. Another reason for three Cylons might also have to do with their use as ground troops. It wouldn't take too many landed raiders to embark enough troops for a seige of a ground target as needed. Pretty effective tactic too since centurions tend to be walking tanks.

When it comes to Cylons though, my favorite conversation concerning their flying skills came from the Galactica 1980 episode "The Return of Starbuck" (The ONLY good 1980 episode IMHO). Starbuck is talking to a Cylon he repaired after both crashlanded on a barren rock. Starbuck made a comment about the poor quality of their landing and wondered if this Cylon was flying the ship when it crashed, to which the Cylon replied they worked as a team. It went on until this exchange.

Cylon: "The situation did not compute."

Starbuck: "So what happened then? Somebody whip out the manual?"

Cylon: "Yes, the manual didn't help."

Starbuck: "So what happened when it came time to exercise some personal initutive?"

Cylon: "We were taking a vote when the ground came up and hit us."

Edited April 5, 2006 by Jay Chladek

[GreyGhost]

Oh gad zooks, methinks I've blown my anti-geek cover!

Alvis 3.1

Nope, just using the phrase "gad zooks" mean's you're still a geek ...

Gregg

[madmike]

It comes down to the side to side scanner eyes. The slow scan rate precludes a Cylon from actually looking at an object in motion correctly. By the time a second scan occurs, the object has moved (usually) and thus the Cylon misses it. How else do you explain their terrible marksmanship? By putting 3 in a cockpit, they would be linked into a more efficient scanning system and actually be able to hit something, as well as fly and land with less crashes!

Another weird Original Series BSG question: Why did the guns on Galactica take 3 shots to hit the cylon ships flying past? They are light beam weapons, shouldn't they not have a "lead" time issue? Best answer I have is that the Cylon Raiders had a good jamming system that confused the gun radars of Galactica.

Then there's why the original series Vipers had to bank in a vacuum...

Or how anyone could fly a Viper with lights shining in their faces? (That pertains to the new series as well..YOU try shining a flashlight in your face at night and see how well you can see anything else!)

Oh gad zooks, methinks I've blown my anti-geek cover!

Alvis 3.1

Did you not notice the Galactica only has 2 point defence turrents? The Battlestars had a much more comprehensive all aspect system, but economic cut backs of Colonial Fleet funding reduced the amount on each fleet asset. This accounts for the repeated frames broadcast during each Cylon attack. As for 3 shots....well, you should know that the first two shots take out the pilot/gunner via close proximity EMP and the third takes out the Raider.

I suggest reading chapter 6 of Volume 30 of the Fleet Operations codes!

Three crew is a Cylon ploy to reflect starlight via shiny armour into the Viper pilot eyes. The Imperious Leader who thought that one up with his three brains (Cylons do EVERYTHING in threes, don't you know!) forgot that Cylon Raider cockpit glass is tinted, but the idea stuck...

MikeJ

Edited April 5, 2006 by madmike

[Ken Lim]

Easy answer: Because machines are stupid.

Likely answer: The writers needed a 'reason' for all the internal space when fighters had to carry fleshies like Baltar or Colonial inflitration teams. Design a Cylon heavy fighter/shuttle? Not in the budget my friends. We're already using the same 5 dogfight sequences every week.

The real question is why machines flown by machines and launched from machines would have a breathable environment. Pure nitrogen would make more sense, fire retardent and cuts down on oxidation of all kinds.

[Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy]

Cylon: "The situation did not compute."

Starbuck: "So what happened then? Somebody whip out the manual?"

Cylon: "Yes, the manual didn't help."

Starbuck: "So what happened when it came time to exercise some personal initutive?"

Cylon: "We were taking a vote when the ground came up and hit us."

Good Gawd, but that's funny.... :P

[ckalina]

Another weird Original Series BSG question: Why did the guns on Galactica take 3 shots to hit the cylon ships flying past? They are light beam weapons, shouldn't they not have a "lead" time issue?

They aren't light beam weapons. They're firing bolts of ionized plasma or tylium vapor or something like that. Therefore it's a projectile weapon and lead time / aim is an issue.

[ckalina]

The real question is, why do these robots want planets with atmospheres that contain oxygen, which promotes rust!

None of these are official or "canonical" explanations, but they are consistent with what appears on screen, even if they require assuming some things not shown. Anyway, as ARC's resident Original BSG partisan (there is no other BSG -- the "new" one on the Sci-Fi channel does not exist, I can't hear you, lalalalalala...), I feel entitled to speak ex cathedra on the subject.

...

(1) Cylons' brains were not programmed from scratch, but rather an electronic duplicate of the original organic Cylon brain. As a result, Cylons still have many of the original instincts of the organic Cylon race. This includes an instinctive preference for habitable planets -- even though they don't actually need oxygen, water, etc.

This also explains why they retain many humanoid behaviors -- for instance, talking to one another instead of just transmitting thoughts electronically; using control panels instead of just plugging their brains into their equipment; carrying ceremonial swords; etc. The point to keep in mind is that they are not just machines, but a machine analogue of an original organic creature, with lots of leftover "beta code" in their software.

(One of my friends who worked in robotics in the '80s told me about a problem they had with a remotely-operated machine that would spin around several times whenever you shut it down -- like a dog instinctively turning around on its bedding. After a lot of investigation they figured out that the program had originally been written for a tethered version of the device, and it still had an automatic routine to uncoil the wires after each run.)

"Cylon" in real life was the name of an aspiring tyrant in ancient Athens. While the Cylons' backstory was never fully detailed, I've always liked the idea that "Cylon" was actually the name of an individual who created them, not the entire species. Maybe Cylon built the machines to help him take power, but his megalomania became part of the machines' brain pattern, becoming the basis for their impulse to dominate other races...But this is just my own invention, not canon.

...

(2) Cylons in their mechanical form were created by an organic species, and would therefore have been designed, built, and optimized for habitable planets. Even if the mechanical Cylons don't don't need oxygen or water, they're still optimized for an environment with certain norms of temperature, pressure, radiation etc. that are normally found on habitable planets.

It's even possible that Cylons somehow make use of atmospheric oxygen -- say, as an oxidizer for an internal power source. Or perhaps Cylons' systems are air-cooled.

...

(3) Cylons may not be the only intellingent species in the Cylon Empire (also sometimes referred to as an "Alliance", which implies multiple members). If the Empire has a helot class of one or more organic species, then habitable planets would be valuable even if the Cylons themselves do not require them. (This could also explain why they have breathable atmospheres aboard their ships -- we don't see these slave-races on screen, but they might be on board.)

Note that Adama says, in the pilot episode, that Cylons want to exterminate mankind because of its innate love of freedom. The Cylons might well tolerate more pliable species that accept Cylon domination. Thus, they had no problem working with the insectoid Ovions on Carillon, who presumably had more of a hive mentality and were unlikely to rebel or oppose Cylon rule. But humans could not be trusted -- even if subjugated they would try to rebel, so they had to be exterminated instead.

[f14peter]

You must remember that BSG (Why is Battlestar one word but uses two letters in its acronym?) is a product of the Cold War . . . The humans as the Democractic West, the Cylons as the Godless Commies.

The three-cylon teams is an extension of the communist concept of groupings in threes . . . the idea being that two people can easily conspire against the government/leadership, but it's much more difficult to get three people to play along. As I recall, the basic element of communist guerilla military forces is a "Cell" of three.

It was explained in the original-length pilot episode (In a scene dropped from the syndicated version and maybe even the film) that the Cylons were originally built by an insectoid species, which eventually fell to the machines they themselves created (This falls in with ckalina's explaination as to the Cylon's desire/use of atmosphere). The war between the humans and Cylons came about when the humans went to the aid of another species that was being attacked by the machineheads.

The show did make many concessions to reality in the name of dramatic effect, viewer conditioning, and/or special effects budgets. Much more exciting to have a pilot try to bring their nearly out of control shot-up Viper down on a landing deck, risking a crash landing and massive damage than to have them simply float aboard like they would really be able to do. Typical viewers back in the day were not as well acquinted with the peculiararities of space and would find the asymetrical manuevering a real space fighter craft would have to be a bit disconcerning or hard to fathom, and would recognize the airplane-like moves.

Edited April 5, 2006 by f14peter

[Felinoid]

Wow, ;) to all of you and keep 'em coming!

[f14peter]

Anyway, as ARC's resident Original BSG partisan (there is no other BSG -- the "new" one on the Sci-Fi channel does not exist, I can't hear you, lalalalalala...),

You're preachin' to the choir Bro! Big fan of the original (True) Battlestar Galactica, and I really, really wanted to like the reincarnation, but it just isn't resonate with me.

Yea, I've heard the whole "It's grittier" and "It's more real" along with "It's darker" arguements, but it ain't doin' it for me. Call me old-school, but after a whole day chock full of reality, the last thing I want from my escapist entertainment is more reality. What I don't like the most is that I'm finding it difficult to really care if the humans survive or not . . . they spend more time bickering and fighting amongst themselves than they do the Cylons. C'mon folks, the entire human race is on the verge of extinction and you're pointing weapons more at each other than Cylons at about a 10-1 ratio?!?!?! The XO is a drunk PW'ed by is bimbo wife? The best pilot is so insubordinate she punches out an officer in a scene more likely to occur on an elementary school playground? The CAG is so angst-ridden over his father you couldn't shove a greased BB up his you-know-what? People are falling in love and fathering children with machines? People are more worried about who's president than the fact that the enemy may pop out of FTL and blow you away in a heartbeat? A scientist can't control his libido enough to prevent himself from turning into a blithering idiot whenever Cy-Bimbo grabs his crotch? And speaking of Baltar, will he please quit waffling and make up his mind . . . will he side with the humans, or will he side with the toasters!!!!!!! I'm no prude, but I also find the blatant sexual content to be a cheap grab for attention and it's typically considered a compensation for bad writing that can't do it otherwise. One twist I do find interesting is that of the Great Betrayal . . . in the original it was a human forsaking his race for the Cylons. In the new version, it appears a Cylon is betraying her/its race for the humans.

The effects are fabulous and there's a much greater attention to real-life physics, but it takes a lot more than that to make a good sci-fi program. I guess the first omen was before the show was even aired when the producer announced that he/they were going to "Redefine the genre" . . . I wasn't aware that it needed redefining.

Give me heros, not heros that are Superman-like, but real heros that put their petty problems aside and arise to do the right thing in extremely difficult situations. I want the good-guys to win in the end, I want the bad-guys foiled, I want good space-fighting . . . do that interestingly, and you have in my mind a good show.

[madmike]

Certainly in the orginal novel of BSG, there are a number of differences to the pilot movie and subsequent TV series.

The Cylons were organic. Warriors were singled brained who wore powered combat armour. Command level leaders recieved a second brain while the Imperious Leaders (effectively Admirals really) received a third brain.

Been a while since I read the novel, might re-read it :D

Regarding the new TV show. I sort of liked the pilot, some of the first season eps look good, but what friends are telling me makes me not want to watch it!

:)

MikeJ

Edited April 6, 2006 by madmike

[Jester00]

It was explained in the original-length pilot episode (In a scene dropped from the syndicated version and maybe even the film) that the Cylons were originally built by an insectoid species, which eventually fell to the machines they themselves created (This falls in with ckalina's explaination as to the Cylon's desire/use of atmosphere).

Was REPTILLIAN not Insectoid. Think Crocodile not Mosquito.

Yea I know, showing my "Geek Stripes" for all those years watching BSG as a kid. :)

I do like some things about the new show but the bad guys looking like humans is just wrong! I liked it much better when they were fighting the Toasters. Starbuck is a "Chick", Boomer is a .... whatever, the XO is a Drunk, Baltar is just a Geek getting a "Woodie" everytime someone turns on an electric appliance and the rest of the crew is a walking soap opera. GEEZE! :wacko: The only great (and believable) actor on there is Edward James Olmos - he acts like a Military Warship Commander would act and behave. He carries that show in my opinion.

I wish they would have taken more the line of Richard Hatch's books on the subject. Think it would have been much more interesting.

My $.02 :D (Soapbox Mode Off)

<S>!

[DErickson]

The real question is why machines flown by machines and launched from machines would have a breathable environment. Pure nitrogen would make more sense, fire retardent and cuts down on oxidation of all kinds.

According to my viewing of the original series on DVD, the Cylons were created by a "reptillian race" of the same name as crude emulations of humans, resulting in walking, talking air-breathing machines, w/out the need for time-consuming reproduction, growth, and education. The Cylons equipped their robots with copied colonial ships and weapons of the time. After these machines rebelled and wiped out their masters, all progress stopped, and the "new" Cylon race simply kept mass-producing itself off the old plans. Cylon ships use the same century-old technology that existed when the fight against the humans started.The Raiders are probably labor intensive to operate, and are obviously slower than the newer Colonial Vipers, hence the three-man crew

AND the 10-to-1 loss rate against Vipers.

(Geek mode OFF...) :blink:

[Joe Hegedus]

Then there's why the original series Vipers had to bank in a vacuum...

The Vipers didn't NEED to bank, but since they had a human pilot it makes sense. Manuevering requires acceleration, and side-to-side acceleration for a human is quite uncomfortable. Plus, the human body can tolerate much larger accelerations in the vertical axis than in the lateral axis. Ergo, to keep the pilot reasonably comfortable and to not kill him with maneuvering, you bank the ship so that the acceleration is in the vertical axis.

You don't NEED to bank a plane to turn in the air, either, but it sure makes it a whole lot more comfortable and efficient.

[Emvar]

Regarding the new TV show. I sort of liked the pilot, some of the first season eps look good, but what friends are telling me makes me not want to watch it!

:)

MikeJ

Mike,

Don't listen to your friends... come to the dark side... watch it.

I've taken the step in liking both shows... I like the grittier darker New Series and I like the old show of my youth. As far as the sexual stuff goes... hey I'm for it. Lets just think about it for a second, the show is aimed at the folks who did grow up with the original series. There were some sexual Taboos back then too... Remember the controversial Launch tube Scene with Starbuck and Casiopia??? Well I think the New BSG is along the same lines controversial but kicked up a notch for the 21st century. But then again I did grow up with the Blue movies on CityTV late Friday Nights... Yes we saw bare breasts on regular late night free TV back in the 70's in Canada long before PayTV came along.

So is this show any different?? No... just modernized to todays political/sexual/social environment. I for one enjoy the 'Six' in Baltar's imagination heck I only watched Star Trek Voyager for that fine Actress... Whats her name with the awesome costume. :lol:

Some would say I am a sick man... I say 'Yes you are right' and I'll keep watching as long as it keeps me entertained.

Just my .02 cents.

Emil

Edited April 6, 2006 by Elmo

[f14peter]

According to my viewing of the original series on DVD, the Cylons were created by a "reptillian race" of the same name as crude emulations of humans, resulting in walking, talking air-breathing machines, w/out the need for time-consuming reproduction, growth, and education.

Was REPTILLIAN not Insectoid. Think Crocodile not Mosquito.

Er . . . um . . . I knew that, I swear! Okay, it's been a few years since I've seen the pilot, but that's no excuse. Please don't banish me to building a Starfix kit, I promise to be better!

I do like some things about the new show but the bad guys looking like humans is just wrong! I liked it much better when they were fighting the Toasters. Starbuck is a "Chick", Boomer is a .... whatever, the XO is a Drunk, Baltar is just a Geek getting a "Woodie" everytime someone turns on an electric appliance and the rest of the crew is a walking soap opera. GEEZE! The only great (and believable) actor on there is Edward James Olmos - he acts like a Military Warship Commander would act and behave. He carries that show in my opinion.

Yea, that's another thing I don't like about the new series, the humanesque Cylons. Again old-school, but I like the enemy to be well defined. The whole "Is that a human or alien, I can't tell" idea never caught on with me. I can buy into the gender-switching on some of the roles, got no problem with that (Even Commander/Admiral Cain). Agree about Olmos, although the one fault I see is that he tolerates Tigh's drunkenness, even to the point of saying (something to the effect of) "Hope you're not going to be drunk on duty again, I may need you." I would hope that the CO would address that problem. That said, yep Olmos is one of the few reasons to watch.

The sex thing, as I said I'm no prude, but the blatant bumping-and-grinding is more akin to what you'll see on those soft-********* late-night CineMax or Showtime programs . . . or so I've heard . A show can certainly portray modern sexuality, butI would hope it doesn't have to be thrown in your face. Also not very pleased (nor encouraged) that humans could be so easily swayed either. The very opening sequence of the entire series is a perfect example. The human representative at the space station sees Cylons for the first time in decades, and even he's turned into jello when Cy-Bimbo merely walks up and grabs his unit.

But, to each their own . . . it's all good . . . (insert catch-phrase de jour)