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Tomcat TPS in Tamiya Paint


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11 hours ago, GW8345 said:

You can claim you have the correct colors but you are using references and color chips from that do not match the time period of the Tomcat. Get a hold of the 595B fan deck/color chips and then do your comparison, until then, your comparison is invalid.

 

Found the list of paint pigments for both 595B and 595C, and the color pigments used in the TPS colors were exactly the same between the two standards, as expected:

 

tps_pigments.png.14174b48a084dbe267e3e44f0da38508.png

 

Again, do you really think the government would drastically change all three TPS colors between 595B and 595C?  Common.

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5 hours ago, RichardL said:

 

Found the list of paint pigments for both 595B and 595C, and the color pigments used in the TPS colors were exactly the same between the two standards, as expected:

 

tps_pigments.png.14174b48a084dbe267e3e44f0da38508.png

 

Again, do you really think the government would drastically change all three TPS colors between 595B and 595C?  Common.

Besides being able to find stuff online, what experience do you have with painting Naval aircraft? How do you know that the color chips you got from a civilian company are the actual correct shade, do you think company's are that perfect?

 

Since you think you are correct what experience do you have to back up your assertions that decal manufactures are not using the correct colors.

 

Have you ever painted a Navy Plane?

Have you ever worked around Naval aircraft?

Have you ever QA'ed a Naval aircraft paint job after it was painted?

Do you have all the Naval manuals and Mil-Spec publications?

 

I don't know if the Navy changed the shades of the gray they used (won't surprise me though knowing the Navy) but what I do know is that there wasn't that stark of a contrast between the Lt and Dk Ghost Gray on any Tomcat I ever worked on/seen, even when we got done painting them (we used to be able to do a full paint job back in the late 80's/early 90's before FITWING cracked down on aircraft painting, after that you could only do a certain percentage of the plane(.

 

Also, do you know what the ratio of the color pigments were?

 

If you are going to call out decal manufactures and say they aren't using the right colors you need to do better to back up your argument. The decal manufacture that responded to you has extensively researched the correct colors, used the correct Mil Spec publications and has actually talked to folks who "put hand to steel". So far you have not used the correct Mil Spec's, I doubt you have actually talked to anyone who has "put hand to steel" and as far as I can tell the only research you've done is compare some color paint chips you got from a civilian company that says their paint chips are not to be used for QA purposes (yet you are doing it and I'm amazed that you paid $35 for each of those paint chips also).

 

Oh, and there's nothing wrong with my monitors but if that's what you want to think knock yourself out.

 

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One bit I can pass along is I have had very good success thinning Model Master acrylic with Tamiya X-20A thinner. It sprays fine out of my Iwata Neo although I admit I haven't tried extreme low pressure settings yet. Things are starting to get a bit scarce as far as TPS colors go, but I can still find Light Ghost gray acryl on Hobby Lobby racks.

 

Pre-thinned AV 70.615 Light Ghost Gray (which also is marketed as a primer) also seems to match Model Master very dang close, enough that you can blend depending on how much of a beat to heck weathered look you want. With US Navy TPS schemes depending on how much pre-shading and/or post shading you do, the final colorings may look quite a bit different in spots.

Plus, given that Krylon primer has been used for corrosion control paint touchups on Navy jets quite frequently, the only time you would ever really see pristine TPS colorings would be when the jet comes back from the depot level paint shop right before cruise workups.

 

Edited by Jay Chladek
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18 hours ago, GW8345 said:

If you are going to call out decal manufactures and say they aren't using the right colors

 

Where exactly did I call out the decal manufacturers for not using the right colors? 

 

You do not have a good track record and are currently sitting on two strikes.  Strike two is accusing SAE International of making fake color chips for the DoD.  SAE attorney will be thrill to hear about this. 

 

Quote

I can tell the only research you've done is compare some color paint chips you got from a civilian company that says their paint chips are not to be used for QA purposes

 

Where did SAE say their paint chips are not to be used for QA purposes?

 

Here is a link from a US government website regarding SAE colors chips:  https://www.gsa.gov/buying-selling/purchasing-programs/requisition-programs/gsa-global-supply/supply-standards/color-standardsfedstd595c

 

Please avoid inhaling so much paint fumes.

 

My 595C color chips are Mil-Spec and did not cost $35 each.

Edited by RichardL
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As Richard has highlighted ANY discussion on colour is fraught with problems when viewed electronically and even in natural light at times.

Is the image edited and colour corrected off a grey card.

Is the screen your looking at colour calibrated?

Is the screen brightness, saturation, black and white point and contrast calibrated?

Seriously unless you really do have a calibrated monitor comparing what you see on your screen to chips even if well photographed us difficult at best.

Then to compare a life size large object reflecting far more light than a tiny chip leading to scale effect where smaller items appear darker than exactly the same colour larger items, this is a very well known error creator.

Colour comparison in modelling, photography etc are fraught with issues and drawing any conclusions is basically impossible off simple photos.

Direct comparison is only really accurately possible on controlled equipment.

Apple products are notoriously over saturated and far to bright.

Standard monitors lacking in contrast and colour accuracy plus saturation.

This is why colour management in photography, printing, viewing is such a huge deal today and it impacts far more than photographs but anything related to colour viewed on a screen.

 

 

  

 

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30 minutes ago, dehowie said:

As Richard has highlighted ANY discussion on colour is fraught with problems when viewed electronically and even in natural light at times.

 

Amen brother 👍  You said it much better than I did.

 

I have been saying this in my previous posts, but some just refused to listen.

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2 hours ago, RichardL said:

 

SAE attorney will be thrill to hear about this.

 

Seriously? Just the implied notion that one would consider alerting an attorney over something so petty takes childish behavior to an all new level here. 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Dave Roof said:

 

Seriously? Just the implied notion that one would consider alerting an attorney over something so petty takes childish behavior to an all new level here. 

 

That's just your opinion.  Those are damaging statements that could affect sales and reputation of a major defense/aerospace contractor.  It's like saying Boeing is making fake Super Hornets.  

 

How would you like it if people say your scale launchers and ordnance are made from fake drawings and thus are not close to the real things?

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On 3/20/2021 at 2:51 PM, RichardL said:

God forbid that the decal makers should base the colors of their decals on some company's paint colors.  That would be a grave sin.

 

Regarding the TPS colors, the total cost of all three official US government color chips is less than the average price of a Tamiya 1/48 scale Tomcat kit.  Therefore, it is best if the decal makers use the actual color chips.

 

tps_color_chips.png

 

4 hours ago, RichardL said:

 

Where exactly did I call out the decal manufacturers for not using the right colors? 

 

You do not have a good track record and are currently sitting on two strikes.  Strike two is accusing SAE International of making fake color chips for the DoD.  SAE attorney will be thrill to hear about this. 

 

 

Where did SAE say their paint chips are not to be used for QA purposes?

 

Here is a link from a US government website regarding SAE colors chips:  https://www.gsa.gov/buying-selling/purchasing-programs/requisition-programs/gsa-global-supply/supply-standards/color-standardsfedstd595c

 

Please avoid inhaling so much paint fumes.

 

My 595C color chips are Mil-Spec and did not cost $35 each.

Bold/Underline mine

 

Quote

How do you know that the color chips you got from a civilian company are the actual correct shade, do you think company's are that perfect?

Above is the exact quote of the question I made, asking a question is not illegal so go ahead and contact SAE's lawyers.

 

As far as the $35 thing, do you have the color chips from the new SAE standard, that is how much they are charging for them. Also, on their website it says it's not for QA (QC) purposes and you even qouted that. I noticed that the color chips you are posting are dated prior to SAE being adopted as the standard. Since they are dated 2016 and SAE wasn't the standard until 2017how do you know that those chips are the actual standard?

 

Just because you can google stuff and got some color chips doesn't make you the end all be all on the correct colors. You obviously don't have any experience with painting Naval aircraft or all of the other military specifications/publications that govern painting aircraft so don't think just because you have some color chips makes you 100% correct, if that was the case half the modeling community would be telling everyone else what colors are the correct ones.

 

As far as where you said that they paint chips are not for QA purposes, go back and read your posts. You took a direct quote from the SAE website that says their color chips are not for QC purposes. Since the Naval Aviation does not practice QC, it practices QA (and yes, there is a difference) that statements says that their chips are not to be used for QA purposes where as 595B and C were authorized for QA purposes.

Edited by GW8345
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The parts in Bold/Underline:

 

God forbid that the decal makers should base the colors of their decals on some company's paint colors.  That would be a grave sin.

 

Therefore, it is best if the decal makers use the actual color chips.

 

Do these sentences "actually" say the decal makers aren't using the right colors?  For example, did I actually say Brian used the wrong colors?  There is a "should" in the first sentence and there is a suggestion in the last sentence, nothing more. 

 

 

21 minutes ago, GW8345 said:

As far as where you said that they paint chips are not for QA purposes, go back and read your posts. You took a direct quote from the SAE website that says their color chips are not for QC purposes.

This is the exact picture I posted in one of my posts above:

 

595a.thumb.png.280d13273df5a9e5cad335cddc790f7b.png

 

It says the "fandeck" is not for QA purposes.  No where in my previous post did I say the SAE chips are not for QA purposes.  

 

You shouldn't not be using the 595b fandeck for QA either, but you disobeyed that directive and used it anyway.  I could careless if you have years of experience painting aircraft because obviously you didn't follow Mil-Spec guidelines.  

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2 hours ago, RichardL said:

 

That's just your opinion.  Those are damaging statements that could affect sales and reputation of a major defense/aerospace contractor.  It's like saying Boeing is making fake Super Hornets.  

 

How would you like it if people say your scale launchers and ordnance are made from fake drawings and thus are not close to the real things?

 

You can't be serious? I honestly didn't believe it could get any more absurd. 

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1 hour ago, RichardL said:

The parts in Bold/Underline:

 

God forbid that the decal makers should base the colors of their decals on some company's paint colors.  That would be a grave sin.

 

Therefore, it is best if the decal makers use the actual color chips.

 

Do these sentences "actually" say the decal makers aren't using the right colors?  For example, did I actually say Brian used the wrong colors?  There is a "should" in the first sentence and there is a suggestion in the last sentence, nothing more. 

 

 

This is the exact picture I posted in one of my posts above:

 

595a.thumb.png.280d13273df5a9e5cad335cddc790f7b.png

 

It says the "fandeck" is not for QA purposes.  No where in my previous post did I say the SAE chips are not for QA purposes.  

 

You shouldn't not be using the 595b fandeck for QA either, but you disobeyed that directive and used it anyway.  I could careless if you have years of experience painting aircraft because obviously you didn't follow Mil-Spec guidelines.  

Please show me where it said that FED-STD-595B  and C states that it's not cleared for QA purposes.

 

In fact, both state they are "Suitable for color identification and selection."

 

Again, you know nothing about military directives, the directive you are saying I shouldn't have used for QA purposes wasn't even released when the Tomcat was in service. The correct Fed-Std for the Tomcat was 595A and 595B, C wasn't released until two years after the Tomcat was retired and the BAE standard wasn't released until 11 years after the Tomcat was retired.

 

Keep digging, you'll reach China in no time.

 

 

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On 3/20/2021 at 7:23 PM, RichardL said:

 

Might want to read this then:  AMS-STD-595 - Colors Used in Government Procurement

 

SAE-AMS-STD-595, “Colors Used in Government Procurement,” was adopted on February 14, 2017, for use by the Department of Defense (DoD).

 

BTW, colors printed on the fan deck are affected by too many variables and thus the fan deck is Not for QC or Inspection purposes.

Dang, don't you hate it when you don't remember what you posted two days ago.

Edited by GW8345
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9 minutes ago, GW8345 said:

Dang, don't you hate it when you don't remember what you posted two days ago.

 

Yep, I said the "fan deck" and not the color chips.  Learn how to read.  No fan decks are to be used for QA purposes.

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37 minutes ago, GW8345 said:

Please show me where it said that FED-STD-595B  and C states that it's not cleared for QA purposes.

 

In fact, both state they are "Suitable for color identification and selection."

 

"Suitable for color identification and selection." does not mean it's suitable for color matching and QA inspection purposes

 

FED-STD-595B is below:

 

595b_chip01.png.da4195d09cfdfc8a5ba3f2dadc7201b2.png595b_chip02.png.220d8c0e1ed61ba41735a543525712d2.png

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1 hour ago, RichardL said:

 

"Suitable for color identification and selection." does not mean it's suitable for color matching and QA inspection purposes

 

FED-STD-595B is below:

 

595b_chip01.png.da4195d09cfdfc8a5ba3f2dadc7201b2.png595b_chip02.png.220d8c0e1ed61ba41735a543525712d2.png

You might want to tell that to AIRLANT and FITWINGONE, they directed us (the Tomcat community) to use the fan deck.

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47 minutes ago, GW8345 said:

Please show me where it said that FED-STD-595B  and C states that it's not cleared for QA purposes.

 

Here is 595C:

 

595c_chip01.png.228d2c2c7fa4110097351c5db2eb50ea.png

595c_chip02.thumb.png.985a49b8d4032e1cae600ee8cf1f7d4f.png

 

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2 minutes ago, GW8345 said:

You might want to tell that to AIRLANT and FITWINGONE, they directed us (the Tomcat community) to use the fan deck.

 

This is probably one of the reasons why the Tomcats you painted look the way they are because you used the fan deck.

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Don’t mind old Reddog (GW8345), he’s just cranky cuz he hasn’t gotten his COVID vaccination yet.  Have you put hand to real steel?  HAVE YOU?!?  Never change, pumpkin.

 

At any rate, this entire conversation is probably overwrought, because variances in local mixing, application, touch up, and weathering are going to result in many, many variances in the appearance of the painted aircraft.  And the Navy has a much wider variance in “standard” application of paint than the AF does.

 

Bottom line:  check your references, make it how you like, and have fun.  Arguing over the color chips and DODI’s ain’t a great way to enjoy a hobby involving little plastic airplanes.

 

 

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I wouldn't waste too much time getting wrapped up in FS color perfection.  When its all said and done you just need the paint to be close enough.  After you do highlight, fading, weathering etc., the paint wont even be a close match anyway.  It just has to look right...not be right.

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On 2/20/2021 at 12:30 AM, RichardL said:

And this is the reason why you can't go by photos off the internet or magazines.  Different cameras capture colors differently.  For example, the color tone from a Nikon DSLR tends to be slightly on the blue side, and color tone from a Canon DSLR tends to be slightly on the warm side.  In addition, different computer monitors display colors differently.  Different time of day and different lighting conditions also alter the actual color on the aircraft.  Therefore, you need to refer to the actual Federal Standard color chip when picking the perfect color.  This way, the accurate color on your model will change with the lighting condition just like the real one.  Taking pictures of your model under overcast sky, no problem.  Taking pictures of your model at sunset, no problem, etc...

 

I totally agree.

 

Reference photos just do not help much, unless one likes and wants to replicate how it looks on particular photos. Also IMO things like highlight, fading, etc. often just make models looks like models, but that's just me.  Anyway, whoever thinks it's a waste of time, not the way to enjoy the hobby or whatever, they can always try to ignore it. There can be many ways to approach the hobby. What is right for you may not be right for others.

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"My paint chip is right!", "No, my paint chip is right", "This is the correct FS color", "No, this is the correct FS color"......................................VMFA-323 and several other squadrons don't care about your "official" paint chips, especially when they open purchase the paint from Home Depot. 

 

May be an image of airplane and outdoors

 

Krylon K05527007 Colormaxx Spray Paint Gloss Leather Brown 12 Ounce  (724504055273-2)

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