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"Blunderbirds" get lost over skies of Washington


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Tank,

I would disagree with you there. As somebody who has flown and taught (it's part of the SUPT syllabus) in both radar and non-radar equipped aircraft it's a "doable" procedure if (and that can be a big if) everybody is disciplined about flying briefed power settings, bank angles, airspeed, and timing. Was it easier in a radar equipped aircraft? Yes, but that has its own dangers as the sensor display just adds another distraction, sometimes fatal as Dean Martin's son found out. Generally the radar becomes a crutch to flying the proper procedures, and if the radar is taken away, for whatever reason, the results can be ugly.

Regards,

Murph

All very good points

My can of worms opening question would be: is this a prime example of lack of dicipline on their part? (in this particular instance).

*John runs for cover*

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All very good points

My can of worms opening question would be: is this a prime example of lack of dicipline on their part? (in this particular instance).

*John runs for cover*

It's been years since I've heard the details, but they were flying through some crappy weather. If it was a case of them going lost wingman (as opposed to not flying a proper radar trail) the situation that was reported is about what you would expect. Lost wingman procedures call for certain types of check turns; however, when the wingtip that was four feet away from you a second ago disappears, the natural reaction is to be a bit more aggressive on getting away from the other aircraft's last known position and the impending midair collision. In that event, the pilot (who to this point has had just about zero positional S.A. because he was flying fingertip) is scrambling trying to transition to instruments, recover to a proper attitude, establish where in the world he is, turn on the IFF, etc... In short he's a busy MOFO. If this happens over the middle of D.C. the opportunity for publicity goes up dramatically. If it's a display team that publicity takes a quantum leap. As I've said before, we're all one mistake away from being the biggest buffoon to fly (insert aircraft type here).

Regards,

Murph

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It's been years since I've heard the details, but they were flying through some crappy weather. If it was a case of them going lost wingman (as opposed to not flying a proper radar trail) the situation that was reported is about what you would expect. Lost wingman procedures call for certain types of check turns; however, when the wingtip that was four feet away from you a second ago disappears, the natural reaction is to be a bit more aggressive on getting away from the other aircraft's last known position and the impending midair collision. In that event, the pilot (who to this point has had just about zero positional S.A. because he was flying fingertip) is scrambling trying to transition to instruments, recover to a proper attitude, establish where in the world he is, turn on the IFF, etc... In short he's a busy MOFO. If this happens over the middle of D.C. the opportunity for publicity goes up dramatically. If it's a display team that publicity takes a quantum leap. As I've said before, we're all one mistake away from being the biggest buffoon to fly (insert aircraft type here).

Regards,

Murph

After if it is determined that someone is at fault, what, if any, disciplinary or career performance evaluation might this or these individuals face for something of this nature? I imagine at the very least it ends up on a performance eval, and the impression I got (correct me if it's wrong) is that this can be rough with regard to future career possibilities, especially in peacetime.

Edited by Fishwelding
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After if it is determined that someone is at fault, what, if any, disciplinary or career performance evaluation might this or these individuals face for something of this nature? I imagine at the very least it ends up on a performance eval, and the impression I got (correct me if it's wrong) is that this can be rough with regard to future career possibilities, especially in peacetime.

Fish,

It would depend on the circumstances. One of the main complaints (from pilots) is that the current OPR rating system has no place for your primary job of flying. :monkeydance: It is invariably filled up with ancillary duties, and a new wingman may be the best thing in air combat since the Red Baron, but the current OPR system really doesn't take that into account, instead it's more worried about how he handled the squadron's CFC drive. The Thunderbirds also tend to carry certain amount of bulletproofing that goes with the job. As Waco and I have mentioned, it is not the wildly popular assignment within the fighter community as outsiders would think due to the non-tactical nature of the flying, the glad-handing, and the amount of time away from home, so they get allowances for that, plus the USAF isn't too anxious to call their demo team on the carpet. Speaking in generic terms, if a pilot in a squadron is determined to be a weak link, he's generally shuttled out of the community through the assignment process.

Regards,

Murph

Edited by Murph
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Murph wrote;

"As I've said before, we're all one mistake away from being the biggest buffoon to fly (insert aircraft type here)."

An outstanding observation Murph - and 100% correct IMHO...

Hitch

Lucky so far as not to have made that one mistake :rofl:

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Wow Rusty, I've read some of your posts like this before, and believe me, I'm taking them in. I"m going back to school soon (one wk from today actually), and the military is a future option, but sometimes I wonder if I could make it in the AF, for bs like you've had to deal with before. My dad was a MSgt ('69-'93) and he's also warned me about a lot of the bs that's he's had to take over the years from the military, and he retired after 24 years! So, if he could make it that far and be in the AF for that long, and still took a lot of bs, that's gotta say something.

I was in AFROTC for 2 years (2001-2003), and half way through my second year (right before the end of fall semester), I decided to get out. I didn't fully commit to my decision until I told the DET commander in February of the spring semester. I'm surprised nobody looked back at my record and wonder, what the hell happened? I spent 3 yrs in AFJROTC, and despite one less year than other cadets, I still managed to find myself on the command staff. I had the grades, physical fitness and the recommendations good enough to earn a Type 7C, non technical degree scholarship. As a result, several military schools were offering scholarships (briefly considered VA Tech, and nearly went to The Citadel), but I eventually chose Clemson because of the campus, and because I was heavily restricted in high school. I come up to Clemson, start getting freshmen cadet awards, joined the school drill team, and had oustanding evaluations from my flight commanders. Now, things started to come apart during my sophomore year. Suddenly, my evaluations were way below average from one flight commander, and just mediocre from the second. And, it became pretty well known that I was not very well liked by both the DET Commander and Commandant. In fact, during one meeting with the Commander, he said that he could not trust me :blink:

Here's what I think happened. Remember that drill team I joined? There's several things you need to know about it: they go by Army rank, Army drill, and half the membership is AROTC (logical since, there are 2 ROTCs on campus) Also, I had a choice when I first came to Clemson to either pledge the National Society of Pershing Rifles or Arnold Air Society, and obviously I chose the former. So, I was not on the AFROTC organization, but instead with a percieved "pure" Army group :lol: I guess I made it worse by co enrolling in AROTC for my sophomore year. Despite promises that I was not switching over to AROTC, and that I was only doing it to broaden my experience and knowledge of the Army, the Commander and Commandant did not believe me. I made a promise to them and I made it clear to the Army cadre that I had no interest in spending more than one year in AROTC. Also, that poor evaluations from my flight commanders? Well, one made the report after it was well understood that I was not returning, and by that time I had a reputation with the upper class cadets. The other one, well, I kinda made her cry after AF lead lab. Oops, yeah, I admit, I should have learned to shut my mouth on certain occasions. That's definitely one thing I learned in AFROTC. I even got a stern "talking to" by several upper class cadets the next day. Also, for the scholarship, I declined it after my freshmen year. Yes, I declined it. Remember my AF vet dad? Well, he's disabled and there were some educational benefits for dependents. At his advice (which I agreed with), I declined the scholarship because I was no longer dependent on the AF scholarship, and I was told I couldn't "double dip" for financial aid from the governent. (Disabled Vets, check Chapter 35 benefits) It also freed me from a commitment in case something happened during my sophomore year. Just in case, and I figured it couldn't hurt. But I guess this added to the trust issue by the Commander. Well either way, long story short, I got out. I felt like with the feelings of the Commander and Commandant had towards me, my percieved Army over AF loyalty, and the perception of me by other cadets, I was going to be screwed over in favor of lesser cadets in my class, especially when SR year came around. So, I had to get out. I left feeling like I made a mistake going to Clemson for ROTC and felt that I should have gone to a military school (probably The Citadel) and might have fared better. I don't know how accurate my feelings were, but my experience at Clemson AFROTC left a bad taste in my mouth for the ROTC program.

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Keith, I did three years in AFROTC at the University of Texas about a decade before you were at Clemson. Sounds like Clemson's cadet wing is all kinds of screwed up and political. Although I wound up having to drop out because of a persistent injury (yeah, I know exactly how far tendons will stretch before they go "pop"), my experience with AFROTC, the cadet command staff and the officers couldn't have been more different.

I did see a few good cadets drop out because of personality conflicts, but it was usually because of problems they had with a single upperclassman or two, I never saw anything on the scale that you describe. The commandant we had for two of my three years (did my college on the five year plan, you see...) was a total jerk, too - but he still did his job and treated his cadets professionally. When it became clear that I was going to have to drop out and try to let my legs heal, and that it would completely screw me out of any chance of my commission in the Air Force because of the training schedule, he set up an interview for me with the AROTC commandant to look at options on that side, as their "boot camp" came before the senior year rather than before the junior year.

Unfortunately, the physical therapy didn't get me all fixed up before insurance decided to stop paying, and...well, here I am a civilian still.

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I only had a problem with a select few of the upper class cadets, and I admit, I could have prevented some of that tension by shutting my mouth. I got along great with the other cadre, it was just those two officers that had a problem with me. They are honestly the only military officers I've ever met that didn't like me. Well, a year after I got out, they both retired. From what I've heard, and from what I saw (Since I was still active with the drill team, I still interacted with AFROTC ocassionally), things were a lot different under the new Commander. I honestly believe a big problem with the Commander and Commandant when I was around was the my association with AROTC. I should have added, that I'm not saying the whole program is screwed up, but occasionally there are exceptions.

The Commandant, nobody liked, much less respected. The Commander, must have done something to end up at ROTC. His previous assignments were the Wing Commander at Edwards (he also said he was big with the B-2 program), then the Pentagon, then Clemson, so me thinks he must have made a mistake along the way. Everyone knew that he did not want to retire at Clemson, and still held onto a dream of getting a star. Also, I'm not getting into much detail about this part, but apparently there was some rumors about falsifying/losing records regarding certain issues (including one concerning the commandant), including a bs charge on the supply NCO that was later reassigned. I'd rather not get into details because, again, despite hearing this from the NCO, and others, it's still a rumor in many ways.

But, I should say that despite his feelings against me, I think the commander still saw good qualities in me. I was really surprised during my last meeting with him, because he did compliment me on my performance in class, and in lab the previous two years. I got the feeling that he thought I had good qualities and he thought I could make as an officer, but there were several big issues about me that he had some reservations about. From what I understand, when a cadet leaves a program, the commander either recommends or doesn't recommend the cadet for another commisioning program. I'm still not sure what he would say about me though. Maybe I"ll find out later if I try for OTS.

Oh, and I did the five year plan as well. I graduated earlier this year.

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Well, Rusty, I'm sure Keith will agree with me here - your experience is completely different from anything we could have had - for one thing, you were active duty enlisted and we were college kids in ROTC. Sounds like you got the shortest end of the stick, and worked for a guy that every cadet tells himself he'll never be like (but unfortunately, I'm sure a good percentage turn out that way).

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Well, Rusty, I'm sure like you said that there are a few unique cases like yours. It seemed like you may have just been in some unfortunate situations with some poor officers. That's how I felt about ROTC at Clemson. I was briefly considering transfering to the University of SC becuase I felt like I was in a bad situation because of the two cadre members and the handful of upperclass cadets. Looking back, naturally, there are questions on whether or not I made the right decision. What if I went to The Citadel instead? What if I did transfer to USC? What if I just stayed with it and not dropped out? What if I had just kept my mouth shut from the beginning? So many possibilities, with so many different outcomes. My A1C discharge papers above my desk are constant reminder of my time in AFROTC, and it's there as a good reminder and a bad reminder. Either way, I did learn something during my time in ROTC, and I can definitely take that learning experience anywhere I go, whether it be the AF, or in the civilian world.

Well, I start back at school next Tuesday, and hopefully that deal will work out for me. It should open up many doors for me, and the AF still an option. If I go into the AF after school, I'll probably be about 25 then, which is a few years older than most brand new LTs, but I think it's a good thing. I've learned my lesson in ROTC, and have matured greatly since then. If anything, I'd like to be older than the typical age, as I think it would help me.

Well, Rusty, I'm sure Keith will agree with me here - your experience is completely different from anything we could have had - for one thing, you were active duty enlisted and we were college kids in ROTC. Sounds like you got the shortest end of the stick, and worked for a guy that every cadet tells himself he'll never be like (but unfortunately, I'm sure a good percentage turn out that way).

Yeah, there's a reason why it's called "cadet land" or we considered lab a time to "play AF." I've met many cadets, who you know will be "that LT." The ones who don't take responsbility when they screw up (even blame others), the ones who climb over anyone to see who can stick their head up the cadre's *** the farthest, and the ones sitting in the corner watching their cadet rank reflect light (yeah, there are cadets who are impressed with their rank :P )

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Yeah, there's a reason why it's called "cadet land" or we considered lab a time to "play AF." I've met many cadets, who you know will be "that LT." The ones who don't take responsbility when they screw up (even blame others), the ones who climb over anyone to see who can stick their head up the cadre's *** the farthest, and the ones sitting in the corner watching their cadet rank reflect light (yeah, there are cadets who are impressed with their rank :D )

Yup. I like to check the Air Force officer promotion lists from time to time when they're released at af.mil, just to see how my old friends are doing. Funny thing - very few of the guys who were gonna be "that LT" show up on those lists...while a couple of guys who were seniors when I was a freshman and seemed to have the least serious attitude toward it all are now lieutenant colonels...

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