F-4C Air National Guard Question

[Skinny_Mike]

Hey guys - need a little help with a loadout for the Air National Guard F-4 Phantoms. I am planning to build the Acadamey F-4C and am going to use the Carcel decals for the Niagara Falls, NY ANG airplane. I grew up about 10 miles from the Niagara Falls AFB and still remember watching the F-4s flying overhead in the early 80s.

My question revolves around the load out for ANG aircraft. I assume they typically would be loaded for air to air, four AIM-7s, 4 AIM-9s and 2 wing tanks. Does that seem right? What would be the approriate AIM-9 version? AIM-9D?

Thanks for the help!

Mike

[achterkirch]

In the 80's I think they started to use AIM-9J's and they had the gunpod slung underneath the center hard point. The gunpod should a SUU-23.

[Niels]

Correct

[Jennings]

When Michigan sat alert at Seymour-Johnson it was with 2x AIM-9J, three gas bags, and no Sparrows

[Skinny_Mike]

Thanks for the help guys! I got a little help at another site and coupled with what you guys gave me here I am planning the following load out:

2 wing tanks

4 AIM-9Js

SUU-23 gun pod on the center line

I am still on the fence about the AIM-7s...

Oh yeah - I screwed up, the decals are from Speed Hunter Graphics, not Carcel. Sorry Jake. :whistle:/>

http://www.speedhuntergraphics.com/product-p/sgh48002.htm

Thanks again everyone.

Mike

Edited August 27, 2014 by Skinny_Mike

[ikar]

It sounds like the 4 A.I.M.s and gun were pretty much the standard with the F-4 which would indicate to me that they were mostly a dedicated air-to-air squadron. Since they were so close to Canada, I wonder if they had a base north of them to deploy to in case of emergencies. In the 5th F.I.S we would normally have gone to Moose Jaw. In that event our aircraft were fully up loaded with 2 types of A.I.M.4s and a A.I.R.2. In that event I see no reason why it couldn't be seen with Sparrows. Even though they were a guard unit, they would still have to keep proficient with all their weapons, the pilots as well as the ammo guys and if they got hit by an inspection team live ammo would have to be loaded to show they knew how.

[Skinny_Mike]

It sounds like the 4 A.I.M.s and gun were pretty much the standard with the F-4 which would indicate to me that they were mostly a dedicated air-to-air squadron. Since they were so close to Canada, I wonder if they had a base north of them to deploy to in case of emergencies. In the 5th F.I.S we would normally have gone to Moose Jaw. In that event our aircraft were fully up loaded with 2 types of A.I.M.4s and a A.I.R.2. In that event I see no reason why it couldn't be seen with Sparrows. Even though they were a guard unit, they would still have to keep proficient with all their weapons, the pilots as well as the ammo guys and if they got hit by an inspection team live ammo would have to be loaded to show they knew how.

I'm sure they would carry the Sparrows, I'm just not sure if I wanted to put them on. might look cooler without them. That's the only reason I'm on the fence about it. I'll see when I finally get to the build.

[RHanes]

When I was a Crew Chief in the Texas Air National Guard ( 111th Ftr Incp. Sqd.) Ellington AFB. Texas in the late 1970 early 1980's we had a ADC mission for the gulf coast of Texas. The load out on our F-4C's were four sparrows and four sidewinders and two wing tanks. I never saw the centerline gun pod used as they would have to be bore sighted on the aircraft with the missile sight. I am sure it depends from Squadron to Squadron and the mission they flew, so check out the photos.

Bob Hanes {Tex)

[Scott R Wilson]

When I was a Crew Chief in the Texas Air National Guard ( 111th Ftr Incp. Sqd.) Ellington AFB. Texas in the late 1970 early 1980's we had a ADC mission for the gulf coast of Texas. The load out on our F-4C's were four sparrows and four sidewinders and two wing tanks. I never saw the centerline gun pod used as they would have to be bore sighted on the aircraft with the missile sight. I am sure it depends from Squadron to Squadron and the mission they flew, so check out the photos.

Bob Hanes {Tex)

I passed through Houston on my way to Ramstein AB, Germany in 1983. Here's two photos I took of 64-0699 on May 4, 1983 which I guess was sitting QRA outside. I'm not quite sure of the aircraft's status; it had 370s and four live AIM-7Es uploaded but no Sidewinders, and the AM32A-60 had both electrics and pneumatics connected to the jet. However, all the downlocks, pitot cover etc. were installed on the jet as well. When our jets sat QRA at Ramstein they had dome and fuse covers on the AIM-9P-3s and the face curtain pins installed on the seats, but no other downlocks, covers or safeties were installed. Could be the ANG had time to remove everything before a launch, whereas in Germany the jets had to be rolling within five minutes of the horn going off.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Scott R Wilson

[dmk0210]

When Michigan sat alert at Seymour-Johnson it was with 2x AIM-9J, three gas bags, and no Sparrows

I passed through Houston on my way to Ramstein AB, Germany in 1983. Here's two photos I took of 64-0699 on May 4, 1983 which I guess was sitting QRA outside. I'm not quite sure of the aircraft's status; it had 370s and four live AIM-7Es uploaded but no Sidewinders, ...

Thanks for sharing those pictures. It's always great to see an alert bird. B)/>

I've always wondered, why would they only load AIM-9s OR AIM-7s on an alert bird? Why not both for the versatility of the two different weapons? It's not like you knew what you'd be up against if the horn did go off.

Was it just a case of "what are the odds of the Russians attacking on a Thursday night"?

.

Edited September 2, 2014 by dmk0210

[Scott R Wilson]

Thanks for sharing those pictures. It's always great to see an alert bird. B)/>/>/>

I've always wondered, why would they only load AIM-9s OR AIM-7s on an alert bird? Why not both for the versatility of the two different weapons? It's not like you knew what you'd be up against if the horn did go off.

Was it just a case of "what are the odds of the Russians attacking on a Thursday night"?

.

Funny you should say that last... let me tell you how worried we were about a "bolt out of the blue" attack. When I arrived at Ramstein AB, West Germany in April 1983 (the pointiest tip of the spear aimed at the wily Russian hordes, as I'd heard it called) I was amazed to find out that on Friday evenings after the last jets were repaired everyone in ops and maintenance went home for the weekend except for the two pilots, two WSOs and four crew chiefs assigned to QRA/Zulu. Zulu had three airplanes, two primary and one spare. Maintenance did have a weekend duty crew, a skeleton crew for making sure Monday's jets were ready to go and for launching and recovering any weekend cross-country birds, but they worked only 5AM to 5PM. From 5PM to 5AM until Monday morning the only people on duty were the QRA people, no one else. Holidays were the same, everyone in maintenance and ops was off duty except for the people manning QRA. For three day weekends or longer we gave QRA two spare jets instead of one. Remember, this is back in the days of the Reagan defense build-up, the "Evil Empire" speeches etc. The political propaganda would have had you believing that an attack from the Soviets was almost imminent, but the reality was far from it.

After I left Ramstein in May 1986, I was assigned to McChord AFB to work on C-130E and C-141B transports. The 318th FIS was there, and their two alert jets only carried two Sparrows loaded diagonally (right front, left rear or vice versa, I don't recall exactly) and no Sidewinders.

Here's DoD photos of a N Dakota F-4D with the same diagonal load, though since this jet is carrying travel pods I am guessing it is flying to another base to sit QRA.There are no Sidewinders and only two Sparrow as you can plainly see.

And lest you believe that was just because they were flying cross-country and so didn't carry a full load, here's some DoD shots of Hooligan jets on a Bear intercept, still carrying only the diagonal load of two Sparrows with three bags of gas, and no Sidewinders (nor gunpod for that matter):

Edited September 2, 2014 by Scott R Wilson

[Scott R Wilson]

I forgot to mention that in sometime around mid to late 1984 USAFE decided that our third shift was a waste of manpower and only encouraged second shift to slow-leak their work, so from then on we never had anyone in maintenance on duty (other than QRA) from 11PM until 6AM on any days of the week. Ops also all went home every afternoon as soon as all the day's flying and debriefs were done, so there were no aircrew other than QRA on duty overnight either.

Scott Wilson

526 AMU, 86 TFW Ramstein AB, W. Germany 1983-1986

[dmk0210]

Thanks for the stories and pictures Scott! I love this behind the scenes stuff. It's always a lot different than an outsider would think it would be. I'd have never thought of a loadout like those slant load Sparrows.

Still makes me wonder why they wouldn't mix the Sparrows and Sidewinders though. I guess it was more for show, like guys patrolling the fence armed with M-1 Carbines or M-16s and no magazines (I've heard that story too).

Edited September 4, 2014 by dmk0210

[Ben Brown]

I've read that the centerline had to be jettisoned before the forward Sparrows could be launched (true?). Why would they carry a Sparrow in a forward bay like this, where it might be more difficult to launch because of the tank, while leaving an aft bay empty? Was it for CG purposes?

Ben

[Scott R Wilson]

Thanks for the stories and pictures Scott! I love this behind the scenes stuff. It's always a lot different than an outsider would think it would be. I'd have never thought of a loadout like those slant load Sparrows.

Still makes me wonder why they wouldn't mix the Sparrows and Sidewinders though. I guess it was more for show, like guys patrolling the fence armed with M-1 Carbines or M-16s and no magazines (I've heard that story too).

I think the weapons load (loadout is a term I never heard while working on the jets by the way, I never came across it until I joined modeling groups online) had more to do with the particular mission and potential adversaries. In Germany in the 80s our alert birds potentially faced fighters coming from across the border and so NATO required a full load of four Sidewinders, four Sparrows and a gun. That's why when the ANG took over QRA at Ramstein during the 86 TFW conversion to F-16s, their F-4Ds carried the gun pod as well as a full load of eight missiles.

ADC/ADTAC on the other hand was tasked with bomber intercepts except maybe in the Gulf of Mexico region, fighters wouldn't have the range to be a factor for them except for fighters launching from Cuba. Sparrows carried a much larger warhead and my guess is that they would be more effective against a bomber than Sidewinders or a gun. As to why two and not four, all I can do is speculate that they were going for max range in certain areas, and so carried the minimum load thought necessary for the mission in order to increase their range. I don't know where the Happy Hooligans sat alert, but the F-15s of the 318th FIS at McChord certainly didn't need to worry about Soviet fighters coming into their area of coverage. The 111th FIS at Ellington on the other hand may have had four Sparrows and no centerline tank because of their proximity to Cuba. It's entirely possible alert jets at Homestead did carry Sidewinders. Like I said, all I can do is speculate and go by what I saw and have seen photos of.

Before I was at Ramstein AB, I was at George AFB, California. We had alert barns at the east end of the east-west runway at George with F-106s of the California ANG from Fresno sitting QRA, and obviously I couldn't see what weapons loads they carried. I always thought that strange, six squadrons of F-4s on base, and yet the ANG sixes down there on alert. I know other ANG/ADTAC units had alert aircraft deployed to other than their home locations as well.

Scott W.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Scott R Wilson

[Scott R Wilson]

I've read that the centerline had to be jettisoned before the forward Sparrows could be launched (true?). Why would they carry a Sparrow in a forward bay like this, where it might be more difficult to launch because of the tank, while leaving an aft bay empty? Was it for CG purposes?

Ben

That's true, on the F-4 the forward missile well launchers were locked out with a centerline bag uploaded. I can only guess that you are right about it being for CG, and that on bomber intercepts jettisoning the tank within the jettison envelope (especially with the High Performance Centerline) would not be a problem. It'd be nice to hear from someone who knew for sure though.

Scott W.

[dmk0210]

... Sparrows carried a much larger warhead and my guess is that they would be more effective against a bomber than Sidewinders or a gun. As to why two and not four, all I can do is speculate that they were going for max range in certain areas, and so carried the minimum load thought necessary for the mission in order to increase their range..

That makes a lot of sense actually.

Before I was at Ramstein AB, I was at George AFB, California. We had alert barns at the east end of the east-west runway at George with F-106s of the California ANG from Fresno sitting QRA, and obviously I couldn't see what weapons loads they carried. I always thought that strange, six squadrons of F-4s on base, and yet the ANG sixes down there on alert. I know other ANG/ADTAC units had alert aircraft deployed to other than their home locations as well.

Were those F-4 squadrons TAC or ANG?

Wasn't the ANG given the North America air defense mission after the Air Defense Command was disbanded?

[Scott R Wilson]

That makes a lot of sense actually.

Were those F-4 squadrons TAC or ANG?

Wasn't the ANG given the North America air defense mission after the Air Defense Command was disbanded?

All the George AFB F-4s were TAC, three squadrons of F-4Es and Gs in the 37TFW, and three squadrons of F-4Es in the 35TFW. I know you are right that the ANG took over most of the Air Defense mission after ADC was disbanded (though there were some Active Duty units in what was called ADTAC, the 318th FIS being one). Still, it seemed a bit silly to me, a "not my job" kind of thing.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Scott R Wilson

[Ben Brown]

Diagonal loadout mystery solved! I asked a gentleman who flew F-4s (among other types) for the MI ANG, and he said they were probably ferrying the missiles to or from an alert facility. The diagonal loadout made it easier to download the missiles. He said the travel pods confirm it isn't an alert jet, and they used to ferry live missiles to and from Seymour Johnson AFB like that pretty often. Thanks, Doug!

Ben

Edited September 24, 2014 by Ben Brown

[mrvark]

Diagonal load mystery solved! I asked a gentleman who flew F-4s (among other types) for the MI ANG, and he said they were probably ferrying the missiles to or from an alert facility. The diagonal loading made it easier to download the missiles. He said the travel pods confirm it isn't an alert jet, and they used to ferry live missiles to and from Seymour Johnson AFB like that pretty often. Thanks, Doug!

Ben

Hmm. However, if you look at the last image above with the F-4 intercepting the Tu-95, it appears to have two AIM-7s loaded in the diagonal configuration.

As to the term "loadout" as opposed to "load". Some of us work with engineers to whom "load" impiles an engineering term. We've been browbeaten into submission and use the "loadout" term out of habit...

[Jennings]

When Michigan sat alert at Seymour-Johnson it was with 2x AIM-9J, three gas bags, and no Sparrows

I misspoke... Senior moment. Before the F-15 tank came along Michigan sat alert at SJ with 2x 370 gallon wing tanks, and 4x AIM-7 (no AIM-9).

[Ben Brown]

As to the term "loadout" as opposed to "load". Some of us work with engineers to whom "load" impiles an engineering term. We've been browbeaten into submission and use the "loadout" term out of habit...

Fixed. Thanks for the clarification! :D

Ben

[Scott R Wilson]

Diagonal loadout mystery solved! I asked a gentleman who flew F-4s (among other types) for the MI ANG, and he said they were probably ferrying the missiles to or from an alert facility. The diagonal loadout made it easier to download the missiles. He said the travel pods confirm it isn't an alert jet, and they used to ferry live missiles to and from Seymour Johnson AFB like that pretty often. Thanks, Doug!

Ben

Maybe for his unit, but in my experience NOTHING was ever done for the convenience of maintenance. If they ferried two missiles slant-loaded it was far more likely to be for weight and balance than ease of loading/unloading (I also doubt that it was any easier for the weapons weenies to have one forward station and one rear to download rather than two forward or two rear).

Nevertheless, loadouts (there, I used the term) seem to be dependent on the unit and assigned mission. I well remember seeing the 318th FIS QRA F-15s carrying only two AIM-7s in a slant, and here's the only other photo I could find on the DoD site showing the Bear intercept by North Dakota F-4Ds. While you can't see the forward missile well area, it's obvious to me there is only one Sparrow on the rear.

Cropped to hopefully show it better:

[Scott R Wilson]

Hmm. However, if you look at the last image above with the F-4 intercepting the Tu-95, it appears to have two AIM-7s loaded in the diagonal configuration.

As to the term "loadout" as opposed to "load". Some of us work with engineers to whom "load" impiles an engineering term. We've been browbeaten into submission and use the "loadout" term out of habit...

I found a video of 318FIS alert F-15s carrying two Sparrows in the diagonal loadout just as I remembered. The editing is done with scenes of 318th Eagles with no Sparrows and a couple of glimpses of Eagles carrying four AIM-7s interspersed in the video.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Scott R Wilson

[BillS]

Ha! I've forever wanted to comment on the term "loadout" I've never said anything cuz I hate know it all types. Anyway, in my experience as a USAF maintenance officer, most in the fighter community over the course of 30 years, I never heard the term "load out". We always said almost exclusively "configuration" or used an alpha numeric designation. This begs the question, where does this term come from? I think maybe RAF or Aussies. Any ideas while we're on the topic?