Colours VVS WW II Options

[sakai]

Hi Massimo,
Last sentense:
However, not a single document from 1941-1945 period was found mentioning this lacquer not speaking about its application!

"It would be useful to understand which colours remained stable with ageing, which ones became lighter and which ones darkened in brief time (some months, the likely life of the photographed planes)."

In general nitro-cellulose paints had tendency to darken. But I suggest you visit this blog www.straggleresearch.com
despite dealing with Japanese coloration Nick aka "Straggler" has enormous, and professional, knowledge about old paints and coatings.
Cheers,
Mario

[Massimo Tessitor...]

Hi Massimo,
Last sentense:
However, not a single document from 1941-1945 period was found mentioning this lacquer not speaking about its application!

"It would be useful to understand which colours remained stable with ageing, which ones became lighter and which ones darkened in brief time (some months, the likely life of the photographed planes)."

In general nitro-cellulose paints had tendency to darken. But I suggest you visit this blog www.straggleresearch.com
despite dealing with Japanese coloration Nick aka "Straggler" has enormous, and professional, knowledge about old paints and coatings.
Cheers,
Mario

Hi Mario,
I see.
Another thing: the light blue AMT-7 is described as grey-blue on V/O booklet, but the impression from the scan of the chips of AKAN is that is a strongly saturated blue. Has someone seen the real chips to say if this impression is true?

Massimo

[sakai]

Hi Mario,
I see.
Another thing: the light blue AMT-7 is described as grey-blue on V/O booklet, but the impression from the scan of the chips of AKAN is that is a strongly saturated blue. Has someone seen the real chips to say if this impression is true?

Massimo

Hi Massimo,
My brushed-out AMT-7 Akan paint sample is definitely slightly grayish. It's not dissimilar to RLM78! I certainly would not describe it as saturated blue.
Cheers,
Mario

[Tyronesdaddy]

FYI Mr. Pilawskii has just published an article concerning the Al'bom Nakrasok on his website: vvs.hobbyvista.com.

[John Thompson]

FYI Mr. Pilawskii has just published an article concerning the Al'bom Nakrasok on his website: vvs.hobbyvista.com.

Very disappointing. I was hoping the tone of this article would be less adversarial, but apparently not. He may be absolutely correct regarding the "Albom" itself (personally I have no way of judging that), but the aggressive nature of his document will only serve to polarize enthusiasts even more strongly, as much as I would wish otherwise.

John

[Eric Armstrong]

Very disappointing. I was hoping the tone of this article would be less adversarial, but apparently not. He may be absolutely correct regarding the "Albom" itself (personally I have no way of judging that), but the aggressive nature of his document will only serve to polarize enthusiasts even more strongly, as much as I would wish otherwise.

John

I have no interest personally in propping up any one in this entire debate. I only want the true facts as best as they can be understood now nearly 70 years on. I did read Mr. Pilawski's reply and I encourage everyone here to do the same and draw their own conclusions. As to the "tone" he uses, I believe all of us can use an appropriate "tone filter" when reading his reply and get to the substance his comments. If it turns out that he is to be vindicated then I for one will give him a pass on the "tone" he chooses to use in attacking his critics.

It does appear that Mr. Pilawski has done quite a bit of field research judging from the few photo's he shared in the reply. My guess that we are only seeing the "tip of the iceberg" concerning photos of actual aircraft he has in his possession. If he does do another book I hope he does load it up with photographs of the real thing that he took. This may have saved him some real grief had he done so in the first book.

[dragonlance]

If he does do another book I hope he does load it up with photographs of the real thing that he took. This may have saved him some real grief had he done so in the first book.

I totally agree.

I must say that his copy of Albom is much deteriorated than the one in Leningrad, according to photos on scalemodels.ru. And he obviously doesn't have the factory samples.

So I'll wait for the Russian response to his article..

[klesnik]

Mr. Pilawskii is rude!!!

He calls those who question SAFFC idiots and morons!!!

Mr. Pilawskii mentions word “stupid” twice at the beginning of his text!!!

We teach our kids that “STUPID” is a S-word, a bad word that can not be used.

Mr. Pilawski may believe in whatever he wants – that’s part of freedoms he is entitled to. He is allowed to write a Bible for himself. He can call his bible SAFFC if he wants. He is even allowed to preach his truth to others. But, he can not call those who don’t accept his beliefs idiots and morons. That’s an insult!!!


At one point I thought that Mr. Pilawskii may benefit if we point to errors in SAFFC. It would be a free correction and advice for his future books. Does he deserve that? I would say no.

Physical inspection is the only standard of examination which I will accept, and it is the minimal effort required to contribute to this discussion.

Mr. Pilawskii refuses to discuss paints and colours with those who didn’t or couldn’t physically inspect wrecks and museum exhibits he has shown in his text. I am not planning to travel to Norway to inspect Pe-2 “structures” – according to Mr. EP, I am not qualified for discussion. Fine.

In his firs post regarding Albom Nakrasok”, Mr. Pilawskii indicates following: “Having now fully inspected this work”. Sounds like he had Albom in his hands. From his new text it’s clear that he has only scans and partial translation. No physical inspection! Is Mr. Pilawski qualified to write about it? According to his own criteria, he isn’t.

We teach our kids to ignore and walk away from troublemakers who speak and act like Mr. Pilawskii.

I think, I will just ignore his forum, website and future books.

Happy modeling,
KL

[sakai]

This article is just an unbelievable mix of toxic vague attacks, inconsistencies and assumptions. This man shows an abysmal misunderstanding of all things pertinent to Soviet Union mainly fueled by incompetence in Russian language. And rude like KL said. Very sad.
To further follow his charlatanism called research is a total waste of time for anyone even remotely interested in this attractive topic.
I just hope that M.Orlov book in English will come out soon so everybody will finally have an alternative source of information and see what Pilawskii's critics have been talking about.
Mario

[Eric Armstrong]

I just hope that M.Orlov book in English will come out soon so everybody will finally have an alternative source of information and see what Pilawskii's critics have been talking about.
Mario

Is this book coming out in English or is this just something that is being hoped for?

[klesnik]

The Krakow Museum's Yak-3 as it appeared in 1992. At that time, the sole modification to its original AMT-11/-12/-7 paint was the application of a coat of clear lacquer to protect the surfaces. In this researcher's view, this example is (or was) the most authentic appearance of AMT-11 and -12 from the GPW period left to us.

There isn't and there wasn't a Yak-3 in Krakow (Poland).

What is Mr. Pilawskii talking about? I guess he physically inspected this airplane when he visited Krakow Museum.

This is not the first time that he shows he doesn't know were few preserved 1940-ies Soviet airplanes are located. There are only few of them - in 25 years of scientific research he should have learned where they are.

For list of airplanes in Krakow museum check:
http://www.muzeumlotnictwa.pl/zbiory.php?w...mp;zb=aircrafts

Three preserved Yak-3s were in 1992 located in:

1. Paris
2. Belgrade
3. Moscow

The last one was displayed in OKB Yakovlev Museum and about that time it was sold to US

Cheers,
KL

This post has been edited by klesnik: Oct 29 2009, 07:42 AM

[sakai]

Is this book coming out in English or is this just something that is being hoped for?

It's being worked on and definitely planned to be published in English.

Cheers,
Mario

[sakai]

Instead as a proof of authentic coloration he's showing Il-10 from Korean War! Wasn't it in 1950-53? And yet he's spitting fire on "Albom" from 1948 not understanding that Russian research, which he seems to be targeting (?), was not drawing exclusively on this source! Vakhlamov&Orlov worked for years with archives and can provide detailed list of their sources. Can Mr.Pilawskii?
He's ridiculing paint chips in "Albom" but never mentioned once VVS paint etalons. He doesn't seem to have an idea they exist, what they are and that Russians researched them.
Now I wish he moves on with documenting his "discoveries" of paints such as "AII Dark Green, AII Brown, Tractor Green" and others.
Cheers,
Mario

[Kari Lumppio]

...
Mr.Pilawskii?
...
Now I wish he moves on with documenting his "discoveries" of paints such as "AII Dark Green, AII Brown, Tractor Green" and others.

Hello!

But Albom Nakrasok has a sample of a green paint for tractors! On page 9, lowermost sample - Khaki STZ ( Хаки СТ3 ). There was also a red-brown (KT) and grey (CT) tractor paint.

Albom page 9:
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_37VdbHCEOKU/SpI0WUk0...ko%20kraski.jpg

Khaki STZ:
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_37VdbHCEOKU/SulBVU63...0comparison.jpg

Not a John Deere green.



Cheers,
Kari

[sakai]

Hi Kari,
Yes, but you certainly remember what shade he promoted on his site!
Btw did you read that article? What do you think?
Since he posted that Mig-3 fragment from Finnish museum I'm very curious if he's ever been there. Besides I wanted to ask if you know about any instance
he communicated with Finnish researchers/enthusiasts of VVS subject. I know for sure that he's never been in contact with M.Orlov. To me it's mind-boggling, stunning that some one claiming to be a "soviet military historian" and VVS coloration expert-researcher would not try to consult, learn, cooperate... whatever with others who were involved in the same thing and sometimes ahead of him.
Is it true that there are 2 copies of "Albom" in Russia, one in Moscow and another in St.Petersburg?
Cheers,
Mario

[Massimo Tessitor...]

Hi,
to tell the truth, I have had a lot of fun reading the article of EP , and I've started to write some notes on it.
Now I am proud to have been banned by him, but I can't comment on his own forum and this is a pity.
Let's see:

Not only the colouration itself, mind, but the source of such work is an intolerable "threat" to Right-wing extremists, nationalists and other fellow-travellers in Russia. 'How dare a foreigner write about our history'!? 'Surely, this must be criminal and cannot be correct, regardless of the content'! While such sentiment must seem ludicrous-- because it is ludicrous-- it is also woefully common.

His own words, not of other people. It’s easy to confutate what you say that other people says of you.
Has someone read or heard these words from any of the "morons and idiots" that are criticizing him? If yes, let me know.

In the new "Wikipedia World", where truth and fact are decided by popularity, it might seem perfectly normal to brandish such a red-booklet in the face of tedious and conspiratorial 'anachronisms' such as archaeology, photographic evidence and chemistry, and to embrace the New And More Comfortable Truth.

Why should this be comfortable? Many of us have spent 50 euros to buy EP’s book and it’s very uncomfortable to think that they were badly spent.

...disproved twenty-five years of dedicated scientific work!

In twenty-five years of scientific works, has he collected only these few photos, even admitting that some of them are of his own? For sure, those of Yak-9 and Il-10 aren't.
Any researcher going in a far museum would likely shot hunderds of photos! When I was in a Spanish Museum, I shot 150 photos in one hour.
I would be really interested to see the iceberg of photos from his own immense collection, and this would have been the good occasion to demonstrate that he has such an archive. Why did he utilized photos from the web, if he has so many of his own?

So far as can be determined, having worked closely with the National Library of Russia

If he worked closely with this library, he should read Russian very well. Then why has he asked Ilya Grinberg to translate the introduction?

For example, the singularly most utilised aviation lacquers of 1948-- by specific government instruction, and confirmed by the photographic record-- were AMT-16 Grey and its all-metal counterpart, A-36m. Neither lacquer appears anywhere in this book.

The omission of some paints is bad only for those that do need chips of those paints. No reson to consider other ones as unreliable. None said that AMT-16 and A-36m didn’t exist only because they are not included there.

The chips sitting on them are similarly degraded, and as a result of this severe oxidation are considerably darker now than they ever would have been when new, and have shifted in hue additionally.

This could be a serious argument, if he has a good way to prove this. But how? Comparing to wrecks? Yes, wrecks are interesting, but let's have a look to the image of Il-10 that he has found somewhere (that means that he never was on that Ukrainan museum, else he should have his own photos): the red star is not even red, but discolored. Why should greens and blues be preserved in a so marvellous way?

About the scans of the pages: on those images, greens and blacks appear nearly identical, while they are well distinguishable on the Akan paints, that are proven to be a good reproduction of Nakrasok alboom of S.Petersburg. Doesn't anyone suspect that those scans are incidentally too dark to discredit the original source?

I would have a lot of things to write, but at the moment I prefer to return to have fun reading in detail the whole article to comment it.

Massimo

[Eric Armstrong]

I would be really interested to see the iceberg of photos from his own immense collection, and this would have been the good occasion to demonstrate that he has such an archive. Why did he utilized photos from the web, if he has so many of his own?

Massimo
[/quote]
Why give the whole store away when they can be used in the next book that he so clearly aludes to planning to do!? Surely we can all agree that would be stupid if he does have other photos, which at this stage cannot be proven or disproven. Better (and a smarter business decision) to dish out a taster now and a lot later for a price.

[Massimo Tessitor...]

I would be really interested to see the iceberg of photos from his own immense collection, and this would have been the good occasion to demonstrate that he has such an archive. Why did he utilized photos from the web, if he has so many of his own?

Massimo

Why give the whole store away when they can be used in the next book that he so clearly aludes to planning to do!? Surely we can all agree that would be stupid if he does have other photos, which at this stage cannot be proven or disproven. Better (and a smarter business decision) to dish out a taster now and a lot later for a price.

Of course, I hope that you are right, and we will be submerged by a mess of new and interesting images. But I am skeptical on this on the base of past experiences.
EP vaunted to have his own collection of photos much before the publication of SAFFC, but nearly all the photos shown in that book are credited to Petrov and other collectors, and only four (of which, three touristic photos of planes in Monino) are claimed of his own collection.

Massimo

[Massimo Tessitor...]

Hi,
I've continued to read the article of EP, and I have some other things to comment.

these pages have oxidised more than a typical sample located on an archaeological artefact (e.g. old aircraft wreckage), which is perfectly logical when one notes that the paper absorbs and concentrates contaminants from the environment.

Is he speaking of paper or of paint? If the paper is yellowish, why should this mean that the chips are altered? Paper adsorbs water, but paints are made with organic solvants that reject water. Or does he think that Soviets would have exposed to rain planes painted with paints that adsorb the water? Ageing of paper and of paints are independant.

As well, given the different states of preservation, the sampes of the same paint in each volume do not match each other.

Am I obliged to believe that he has examined two books? He should demonstrate this.


Massimo

This post has been edited by Massimo Tessitori: Oct 30 2009, 11:39 AM

[Massimo Tessitor...]

Hi again. Some other considerations...

The AMT lacquer samples. It can be seen that all of them are extremely dark, virtually black.

But colors of AKAN, demonstatedly a good reproduction of them, are not virtually black. What credit should be give to these scans?
Why didn’t he photographed them aside some Munsell or Federal Standard catalogue, or even aside his own finger, to allow us to estimate if they are realistic?

The fin and rudder from a Yak-9 (unknown model). Despite being somewhat decrepit, the finish is surely the original AMT-11/-12, soiled and darkened in places variously due to its non-particularly-well preserved state.

The photo shows clearly that the tail was painted twice, and then the rudder lost some paint. Should I hypothize the colors, I would say that the underlying one (more violet) are AMT 11-12, while the second layer (greenish, intact on the stabilizator and scratched on the rudder) are their oil equivalent, that became a bit yellowish. As we see, the oil color is ideal for the metal stabilizator, but not for the fabric of the rudder.
It could be said that this image is not shot by him, it was posted on his forum in an interesting topic on AMT 11/12 that has casually been lost with the crash of that forum; if I remember well, by a person that was called 'daltonic' on that occasion .

The Krakow Museum's Yak-3 as it appeared in 1992. At that time, the sole modification to its original AMT-11/-12/-7 paint was the application of a coat of clear lacquer to protect the surfaces. In this researcher's view, this example is (or was) the most authentic appearance of AMT-11 and -12 from the GPW period left to us.

Krakov? He hasn’t certainly seen this plane: as KL has written, there are not Yak-3s in Krakow.

To be continued....
Massimo