Colours VVS WW II Options

[Peter Pommes]

Hi
Can anyone provide me with information how I can mix VVS colours of WW II with acrylics like Tamiya or Gunze?
I'm offering all my WhiteEnsign colours in exchange!!
The colours look nice but I just can't get used to the smell of enamel colours...

[Eric Armstrong]

To me these are valid points (and I missed a few), documented in books, this thread and numerous external www links.

If you prefer to call them "vitriol", it's fine by me.

If there are book(s) available or that will soon be available that you can share the title of that the English-speaking-only members of the audience can purchase and read then let's have the title(s) so we can be better educated.

It is useful to remember that an excellent message can be lost when it is shroulded in language that is laced in venom. This is what I have seen in this tread.

That goes for all sides of any argument.

[Massimo Tessitor...]

Hi,
I've compiled a provisional table of colors and I've uploaded it here
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/colors.html.
As you all can see, it is uncomplete: some paints don't have a chip, nor an equivalence, notably the postwar blue-greys as
AMT-10, AMT-16 and similar, and dark brown A-8. Besides there are some colors of 1940 that could be identified with those of experimental camouflages that can be seen on
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=668.0
The table and chips are widely based on the works of V/O, of Hornat, of Akanikhin and similar sources.
Any help will be welcome.
Massimo

[dragonlance]

Hi Massimo,

I believe your AE-9 could use a little blue.

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq2o2uI9

This is from a crashed SB in the far east, between 1938-1942. Color provisionally identified as AE-9.

Which could explain the contrast between AE-9 and AII Aluminium in this top photo, and concurs with the I-153 drawing by Maslov.

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxj2yqEJ

[Massimo Tessitor...]

Hi Massimo,

I believe your AE-9 could use a little blue.

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq2o2uI9

This is from a crashed SB in the far east, between 1938-1942. Color provisionally identified as AE-9.

Which could explain the contrast between AE-9 and AII Aluminium in this top photo, and concurs with the I-153 drawing by Maslov.

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxj2yqEJ

Hi Dragonlance,
the photo of the rudder is highly interesting, thank you. I see that the light grey appears with a bluish tint, but I am not sure if this is a photographice effect or not; on photos, greys can turn easily to any dominant shade.
My chip is based on an equivalence to FS-15630 given on the book of Hornat, and this color looks neutral to my eye.
Do you know of other samples, or of someone that has seen this piece with his own eyes?

The page on I-153 looks interesting, but I can't red Russian. I see that the fabric is metallized while the metal parts are painted grey, but I am wondering if this was a characteristic of all I-153s, or there were overall grey and overall silver too.
Is there written something useful on this point?

Massimo

[Mikehorrell]

Hi,
I've compiled a provisional table of colors and I've uploaded it here
Massimo

Thanks!

[dragonlance]

The page on I-153 looks interesting, but I can't red Russian. I see that the fabric is metallized while the metal parts are painted grey, but I am wondering if this was a characteristic of all I-153s, or there were overall grey and overall silver too.
Is there written something useful on this point?

Massimo

Hi Massimo,

I have a book called simply I-153 by Mikhail Maslov. ISBN 5-93848-003-5

In the chapter on paints he writes (my translation):

"In I-153 production Zavod No1 used several versions of grey-silver coloring. Metal parts were painted in light grey enamel AE-9, fabric parts in AII silver shade aerolak. Some of the machines were painted in AE-8, which had aluminium powder in it. In the first case, if the entire aircraft wasn't repainted overall in silver lacquer, the tail part was noticeably lighter in tone color."

There are clearly two different schemes in pictures, in the first case the grey areas are clearly different from the fabric parts, in the second case, aircraft looks overall the same color.

Vedran

[sakai]

Check-out the actual AKAN samples here
http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index....t=#entry1845443
Cheers,
Mario

[Massimo Tessitor...]

"In I-153 production Zavod No1 used several versions of grey-silver coloring. Metal parts were painted in light grey enamel AE-9, fabric parts in AII silver shade aerolak. Some of the machines were painted in AE-8, which had aluminium powder in it. In the first case, if the entire aircraft wasn't repainted overall in silver lacquer, the tail part was noticeably lighter in tone color."

There are clearly two different schemes in pictures, in the first case the grey areas are clearly different from the fabric parts, in the second case, aircraft looks overall the same color.

Vedran

Interesting... if I have understood well, the choice is between planes painted with grey AE-9 and bright AII aluminium, whose difference is visible, and planes painted overall with greyish aluminium AE-8, isn't it?

Thanks!

You're welcome.

For AMT-10 and 16, do anyone know if they are in AKAN catalogue, or if there is some FS equivalence anywhere?

Massimo

This post has been edited by Massimo Tessitori: Nov 10 2009, 09:20 PM

[sakai]

Interesting... if I have understood well, the choice is between planes painted with grey AE-9 and bright AII aluminium, whose difference is visible, and planes painted overall with greyish aluminium AE-8, isn't it?



You're welcome.

For AMT-10 and 16, do anyone know if they are in AKAN catalogue, or if there is some FS equivalence anywhere?

Massimo

Both AE-9 and AE-8 were oil-based paints for metal surfaces. For that matter I doubt very much that AE-8 was ever used on fabric surfaces. Since it contained aluminum powder though the contrast between metal surfaces painted in AE-8 and fabric painted in AII aluminum must have been less comparing to metal portions painted in AE-9 which was just light gray.
In addition, from today's posting by M.Orlov on scalemodels.ru
"АЭ-8 с 1930-х годов до 1950-х оставалась ЕДИНСТВЕННОЙ авиационной МАСЛЯНОЙ эмалью АЛЮМИНИЕВОГО цвета.
...из технических условий 161АМТУ достоверно известно, что эта эмаль состояла из 90% прозрачного масляного лака ЛМ-15 и 10% алюминиевой пудры."
From 1930s till 1950s AE-8 remained the only aviation oil-based enamel of silver (aluminum) color.
It's sufficiently known from technical specifications 161AMTU that these enamel consisted of 90% of clear oil-based lacquer LM-15 and 10% of the aluminum powder.
AE-8 therefore could not be "grayish".
Cheers,
Mario

This post has been edited by sakai: Nov 10 2009, 10:36 PM

[sakai]

There is a reaction of Mikhail Orlov himself to Mr.Pilawskii's analysis of Albom Nakrasok
http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewto...;&start=320

[Learstang]

There is a reaction of Mikhail Orlov himself to Mr.Pilawskii's analysis of Albom Nakrasok
http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewto...;&start=320

Excellent, now can you, Mario, or Vedran (dragonlance) provide a translation for us lazy English-only speakers? I clicked on the British flag to have it in English, but it only translated about half of the thread on that page, and not that post. (Really though, I do need to work on my Russian - it seems that even a basic understanding of Russian would help me tremendously in my research on VVS subjects - otherwise, it's as if I have one hand tied behind my back.)

Learstang

[Chuck1945]

Excellent, now can you, Mario, or Vedran (dragonlance) provide a translation for us lazy English-only speakers? I clicked on the British flag to have it in English, but it only translated about half of the thread on that page, and not that post. (Really though, I do need to work on my Russian - it seems that even a basic understanding of Russian would help me tremendously in my research on VVS subjects - otherwise, it's as if I have one hand tied behind my back.)

Learstang

OT, but I tried copying Russian text from one of those discussions into a translator and the results were too garbled to make much sense. Reminded me of the translation story where a translator took the phrase "the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak" and after tranlation it became "the meat is rotten, but we have lots of vodka" Suppoedly this occurred with an early translation program that was tested by tranlating the English expression into Russian and then translating the Russian results back into English.

[sakai]

Excellent, now can you, Mario, or Vedran (dragonlance) provide a translation for us lazy English-only speakers? I clicked on the British flag to have it in English, but it only translated about half of the thread on that page, and not that post. (Really though, I do need to work on my Russian - it seems that even a basic understanding of Russian would help me tremendously in my research on VVS subjects - otherwise, it's as if I have one hand tied behind my back.)

Learstang

I'll see what I can do. This one I can offer immediately, it should be of interest especially to you (you know what I'm talking about). Orlov put it in PS and I hope he'll come back to it:
"Что меня мучает и не дает спать по ночам?Откуда Пилавски взял никогда не выпускавшиеся советской промышленностью аэролаки второго покрытия АII Светло-коричневый и АII Коричневый? На этом фоне меркнут другие его эмали, такие как Тракторная зеленая и Заводская зеленая АЭ-5…."
What's bothering me and doesn't let me sleep at night? Where did Pilawskii get AII Light-brown and AII Brown as these aero-lacquers of the second coverage were never manufactured by the soviet industry? In that context his other enamels such as Tractor green and Factory green AE-5 seem of minor importance.
Cheers,
Mario

[dragonlance]

Hi Learstang,

Google translate copy/paste without editing (as it's past midnight here):

So, Mr. Pilavski, finally, was able to consult with the album nakrasok production plants Glavkraski MHP USSR ", published in 1948. What kind of impression made on him by this edition? Unfortunately, not what one would expect.
I understand that he considered this "Album" ideological weapon against his research. This, perhaps, it prompted a discussion on this forum, which was waged by some gentlemen, comrades too hot. Something like this all the controversy over the works of Suvorov-Rezun, which resulted in the emergence of innovative and new "works" from both supporters and opponents Rezun. Fortunately, the scale of debate over color planes the Air Force is much smaller. Nevertheless, interest in the topic modellers coloring Soviet aircraft, it is quite understandable and justified.

I do not want here to engage in polemics with Mr. Pilavski, however, examining the contents of this forum, I thought it was not useless to share their opinions on the "Album nakrasok" and some others.
For the first time this album was made to me, and V. Vahlamovym in a monograph published in the magazine "M-Hobby", namely in the number 2 / 1999. I studied it much earlier, unfortunately, now I can not remember when exactly. This copy of the album was (and remains today) in the Library of them Lenin, now RSL. According to records in the library form the album before I did not take nearly 15 years. The text of our monograph FULL Imprint on the album, unfortunately, are not.

In his book (2003) Pilavski, using information from the monograph, criticized the album, calling it for some reason (perhaps to permanently discredit him as a source) edition of the NKVD. Philistine forgiven for not knowing that in 1946 all Commissariats were transformed into ministries (in particular with the NKVD occurred March 15, 1946), but historians studying the Soviet Air Force is unlikely. Nevertheless, it characterizes Pilavski as a researcher, who in the absence of data, probably invents them himself.

Pilavski album called "bureaucratic", that this implies - I did not understand. He noted in his book, a strange color enamel A-28m, described us as "greenish-blue. He called it "completely false", without paying, perhaps, the attention to a footnote, where it was written - "after some time of operation". This we wanted to show how this can change the color of enamel. Color A-24m Pilavski found satisfactory agreement with the known examples. His position was the following: chips for colors that were in regular use at the time of publication of the album, "it seems genuine. This enamel AMT-7 and A-28m, according to Pilavskogo, in 1948 no longer applied and were replaced by the AMT-16 and A-36.
Almost the same thing he repeats now. Let's dwell on this issue.

АDope AMT-16 (light gray-blue color) were produced according to TU NKHP 1670-47, approved by city 22.10.47
Dope AGT-16 and TU NKHP 1611-47, approved by city 24.07.47
Enamel A-36g per TU NKHP 1654-47, approved by city 04.10.47
Some time before that date they could be in the form of an experimental batch of temporary TU (WTU).
What does this mean?

The fact that in 1948, this varnish to produce and use and, theoretically, could get the album. Does Pilavski what it means to gather from all the paint factories USSR nakraski? First, the entire range of enamels produced by the plant in one day nor gather: a week, maybe a month, the plant produces 2,3,4 ... 10 brands of paint, then switches to the other, then the third ... But you have to take them to Moscow, to print the album and paste (manually to 1000 copies.! "), These chips ... And there were many factories (did not think the same Pilavski that all the chips had been manufactured in one place?).

It is obvious that the plan of the album with a list of chips, which should enter into it, was drafted long before its release. Exact date not say - do not know. But put in the album was set July 7, 1947.
What happened in 1947?
Let us not speak for the entire industry, let's talk only about aviation. For her post-war paint doing in mostly three plants: № 36 (Moscow, specializing in nitrolakah), № 861 (Moscow, oil pentaphtalic, glyptal enamel, etc.), № 34 (Chelyabinsk, and the other painting supplies, power plant is much larger than that of Moscow).

Experimental batch of AMT-16 made as a single order in the factory number 36 in 1946, in 1947, this factory has been mastered serial production. But it was clear that the greater the prospects that the enamel does not.
More promising was the glossy dope AGT-16. Plant number 36 in 1947 produced 68.4 tons of the lacquer as "unscheduled range on the order of Glaucus" (this figure and others below are from the annual reports of plants, see WGDE fax. 8311, op. 1, dd 181, 187, 211 and 240). Total dope different colors on 36-m plant in this year released 931.7 tons.

August 11, 1947 was issued order number MAP 549s, according to which the directors of factories number number 21, 31, 99 and 153 were ordered, without waiting for the results of performance tests of new paints, paint the Yak-15 Yak-21, Yak-9 and La -9 light gray-blue oil enamel A-36g and nitroemalyu the same color AGT-16 (fabric covering the rudders and ailerons). Delivery of the aircraft in this painting was supposed to begin as early as 10 September. And, indeed, on the records of the MAP flew in September, 134 La-9 of about 40 aircraft already painted new colors. At this time the 21 th fighter aircraft factory was taking the 12-13th episodes.

1948-th - year development and early release dope AGT-16 factory number 34. The following year, 1949, at 34-m factory fired its 293 tons. Issue enamel A-36g was significantly less - 44,9 m (plant number 34, 1949) in the range of plant number 36 in 1948, these enamel missing.
It continued to produce dope AMT/AGT-7 and enamels A-28m / g. ТSo in 1948 the plants number 34 and number 36 in total released 133.8 + 89 = 222.8 tons of AGT-7, 16 tons of AMT-7, and 78 tons of A-28 g.

The attentive reader will notice: data on the issue of AGT-16 and A-36g are 1947 and 1949 years, and AMT/AGT-7, A-28m / d by 1948. Not a very valid comparison, is not it? But in the annual report of the plant number 36 for 1948 enamel AGT-16/A-36g not mentioned at all, and the plant number 34 refers to the so - mastered the production, without specifying the amount of this issue, he probably was not great.

Thus, in 1947-48, dope AMT/AGT-7 enamel and A-28m / g has not yet surrendered their positions, and AMT/AGT-16 and A-36g has not yet taken their place. So why include them in the main range of the album?

Second question: how far the form of chips corresponds to their original state.
Pilavski wrote that he had investigated two copies of the album. How? Probably the photographs. Judging from the scans given them a very bad quality. Therefore, the assertion that the chips with the same name in different albums differ from each other, beneath criticism.

I do not quite understand, which means «NLR collection in Moscow», which is stored, according to Pilavski, a copy of the best preserved. However, I can say that the scans he submitted was not made from the album, which is stored in the Russia State Library in Moscow (former GBL).
What remains in the "dry residue"? General considerations on the oxidation of colors on the chips, two black and white photographs of the WWII aircraft and several color photos of the wreckage.

Of course, the absolute accuracy in color, we will never get - a time of power over all. А priori, however, we can say that the storage in the library at a constant temperature and humidity, when the book opens not often (remember - the interval was 15 years old), much more gentle than the wreckage of the aircraft, the same number of years had lain in the swamp land, or, even worse for the paint - in the sun.... Paper absorbs and concentrates the contaminants from the environment" - of course, "environment" in Moscow is not perfect, however, in the storage library is still cleaner than the water in the swamp.

To analyze the black-and-white photographs, one must know the type of light-sensitive layer of film on which the picture. For example, bromoserebryanoy film without sensitization, the upper limit of the spectral sensitivity is about 540 nanometers, ie region from the yellow-green to red colors will be transmitted (on the positive) is very dark shades of gray, while visually dark purple color appear in the picture is very bright. Such films, like any photo paper, you can be in the red light.

With the introduction of emulsion optical sensitizers can "bump" the upper limit of spectral sensitivity. In images taken with such a film will be a red light.
The curve of spectral sensitivity is not monotonic, for it has peaks and dips, and almost horizontal segments. For example, izopanhromaticheskaya film has roughly the same wavelengths in the range from blue to red colors. Тhis film blue, yellow-green and red will be are equally lightness. A brief photographic guide. Goskinoizdat M. (not !!!), the NKVD, 1952, p. 161)
Does Pilavski on what films were made by the negatives of these two pictures? If he knows us, he does not say.

Color photos.
I do not like and to avoid, to make findings on color photographs, however good at first glance they were not. I quite agree here with Pilavski that "physical examination - the only standard of review. It is not bad to try to gently wash away the top most layer of the damaged enamel. Available to me at the ruins of a sufficient amount of this was done. The result showed good agreement with the color chip from the album. But in this case has nothing to do.

Keel and rudder of the Yak-9. My impressions: see small, fairly dark area at the bottom of the LV, all the rest of the surface of gray-blue color. Gray-blue color is clearly two-layered, probably after repair. Lower layer of a somewhat darker, perhaps, is better preserved. АMT-12 and AMT-11, if they go through several decades of atmospheric conditions, may well look exactly like on my screen.

Yak-3, supposedly Krakow museum. According Pilavski appeared in 1992. Where have you been up to this? While there is no answer to this question, further discussion of his color sense, and shows a photo of nothing at all.

Section fuselage LaGG-3 in the Finnish museum. Color AMT-4, AMT-7, AII Kr.(edit -Kr=red) (use of oil A-13 to nitroemali AMT - doubtful), and even the AMT-6 are very similar (with the possible amendment to Section of Yak-9) at nakraski these enamels in the album.

IL-2. Paint, probably much faded. There is a hint of light brown color.

Pe-2. By the remark about the color of IL2, you can add that before that talk about the nuances, you must at least DRY surface.

What more attracted Pilavski in the album? Riddle AE-8. And what is actually a riddle? AE-8 from 1930 to 1950 was the only aviation OIL enameled aluminum color. As oil enamel and it was placed on the same page with aviation oil enamels. Other aeroemali grades AE, long out of use. Do not start the same for the enamels one whole page?

Riddle, probably in the next, Pilavski probably confused aluminum color of AE-8. In his book, the color of the AE-8 is shown as medium-gray (p.11). However, the technical conditions 161AMTU know for a fact that the enamel is composed of 90% of the transparent oil varnish LM-15, and 10% aluminum powder. Proportions in different years little changed, but the essence remained the same, and the same: only two components. What else could be its color? A SB in different years painted aluminum as the AE-8, and light-gray AE-9.

Color A-28m
Perhaps you can agree with Pilavski. Color nakraski A-28m in the album has changed a lot, I think, to blame for this poorly matched to the compatibility of the blue pigments and additives dull.
Why? Color of any paint material (if the color normalized) determined by two standards. The actual color of enamel should be placed between the two factory benchmarks agreed with the AFA. The colors of enamels the same brand but different parties could not be absolutely identical. But they should have been stowed in the "fork" between the standards. Enamel A-28m, A-28 g, AMT-7 and AGT-7 produced by VARIOUS recipes, but the same standard. Therefore, new nakraski should be close in color, but with time difference between them could vary because of differences in formulations. On the other nakraskah (A-28 g, AMT-7, AGT-7) such a strong change is observed. But the A-28m knocked out of this series
In the case of enamels nakraskami A-24m, A-24g, AMT-4 and AGT-4 shades of difference and now small. If during this period, large differences did not happen, it means that either they have changed the same way (taking into account the different chemical composition, it is unlikely), or themselves, these changes are insignificant.

Primers
Comparison of soil color does not make sense for one simple reason: they are not normalized. In TU NKHP 777-41 on the ALG-1 says: "color from light to dark yellow. In TU NKHP 1047-43 at the ALG-5: "color - gray-green on the standard (not normalized color).

Perhaps, until enough.
PS.

1. If I correctly interpreted the approval Pilavski, in advance I apologize. The reason for this, only good things to ignorance of the English language.

2. What do I like Pilavski? It would not be peddling no trifle. He has no personal insults. All those who disagree with him, he calls en masse, at best, «self-promoted luminaries", in my machine translation "samoprodvinutymi luminaries. Who promoted himself to Mr. Pilavski?

3. What torments me and does not sleep at night? Where Pilavski took the never released Soviet industry dope second coating AII Light Brown and Brown AII? Against this background, dwarfed by his other enamels, such as the Tractor Factory and the green green AE-5 ....

End paste. Fascinating stuff.

Good night,

Vedran

[Dmitriy Linevitc...]

Hi Dmitriy,
yes, this helps very much! Thank you a lot!
I see that the piece is mounted on an instrument panel. What plane is it from?
Massimo

This is МБР-2 flying boat with AM-34 engine, crash landing at Primorsky region mountains at 1944. Absolutely unique, and it's pars preserve super rare enamel, special naval color AMT-10. Seems to be, such enamel example even Orlov&Akan don't have.

Hi Dragonlance,
the photo of the rudder is highly interesting, thank you. I see that the light grey appears with a bluish tint, but I am not sure if this is a photographice effect or not; on photos, greys can turn easily to any dominant shade.
My chip is based on an equivalence to FS-15630 given on the book of Hornat, and this color looks neutral to my eye.
Do you know of other samples, or of someone that has seen this piece with his own eyes?
Massimo

It's my photos The aircraft is painted entirely gray enamel, the most well-preserved places have sligtly blue tint, but not like the tone, but as a visual sensation of cold color, is an important nuance, i.e paint is not a neutral gray as would expect.
By the way, a careful study of photographs of Spanish military archaeologist Isaac Montoya, showed that his SB were also originally painted gray enamel, there are no signs of aluminum paint, as Pilyavsky decided.

Мy own research photo SВ, lead me to the idea that "silver" SB or not quite there, or they were negligible, I can responsibly say that most of the photo SB which is defined as the "silver", is actually gray. At crash site I made a small discovery, gray enamel under certain conditions photo shooting, even on a modern digital camera looks like silver!

Minor addendum for AMT-4, it's creation based on 4BO enamel, and at some circumisations looks identical with it, as a A-24 too. For simple modellers understanding, all three enamels may read as identical.

This post has been edited by Dmitriy Linevitch: Nov 11 2009, 12:42 PM

[Learstang]

Thank you very much for the translation, Vedran! Fascinating stuff indeed.

Learstang

[Massimo Tessitor...]

This is МБР-2 flying boat with AM-34 engine, crash landing at Primorsky region mountains at 1944. Absolutely unique, and it's pars preserve super rare enamel, special naval color AMT-10. Seems to be, such enamel example even Orlov&Akan don't have.

It would be great to see it, or to have a match with Federal Standard. I think that Orlov and Akanikhin would be very grateful too, and we could have a new paint for those types.
By the way, the book of Hornat says that AMT-10 was specified only in July 1945, but this could be wrong.

It's my photos The aircraft is painted entirely gray enamel, the most well-preserved places have sligtly blue tint, but not like the tone, but as a visual sensation of cold color, is an important nuance, i.e paint is not a neutral gray as would expect.
By the way, a careful study of photographs of Spanish military archaeologist Isaac Montoya, showed that his SB were also originally painted gray enamel, there are no signs of aluminum paint, as Pilyavsky decided.

Maybe I could divide the chip of my page in two pars, as I already did with other ones, and to paint on the right my guess for weathered color. So, I could make a slightly lighter and more bluish shade in this part.

Мy own research photo SВ, lead me to the idea that "silver" SB or not quite there, or they were negligible, I can responsibly say that most of the photo SB which is defined as the "silver", is actually gray. At crash site I made a small discovery, gray enamel under certain conditions photo shooting, even on a modern digital camera looks like silver!

This idea is interesting, it needs a check. There are a lot of photos of wrecks of SB of German origin. Ono could look for those that seem to show aluminium planes, see if the same plane appears on other photos, and if they show a metallic impression too. This would require much time, but would give a reliable answer if there were aluminium-painted SB or not.

Minor addendum for AMT-4, it's creation based on 4BO enamel, and at some circumisations looks identical with it, as a A-24 too. For simple modellers understanding, all three enamels may read as identical.

I suspect that all greens should be similar, but show difference with weathering. My impressions from the factory photos of MiG-3s was that the uppersurfaces were painted with only one green, but strongly weathered wrecks show that metallic parts became lighter (A-19f?) and wooden parts darkened (AII green?).
Just today we've seen a photo of a wing of Il-2 where the green (AMT-4 or A-28m) looks light and bright, while it should have been darker in origin.
To simplify things for modelers, I agree that all these colors could be approximated with one or two matches only.

By the way, have you any ideas on AMT-16, A-36g and PF-36m, the colors of La-9/11/17? I think that someone is preserved in closed museums.

Massimo

[klesnik]

It's my photos The aircraft is painted entirely gray enamel, the most well-preserved places have sligtly blue tint, but not like the tone, but as a visual sensation of cold color, is an important nuance, i.e paint is not a neutral gray as would expect.
By the way, a careful study of photographs of Spanish military archaeologist Isaac Montoya, showed that his SB were also originally painted gray enamel, there are no signs of aluminum paint, as Pilyavsky decided.

Welcome aboard Dmitriy!

Good to have a scalemodels.ru expert on this forum.

QUOTE
Мy own research photo SВ, lead me to the idea that "silver" SB or not quite there, or they were negligible, I can responsibly say that most of the photo SB which is defined as the "silver", is actually gray. At crash site I made a small discovery, gray enamel under certain conditions photo shooting, even on a modern digital camera looks like silver!

This idea is interesting, it needs a check. There are a lot of photos of wrecks of SB of German origin. Ono could look for those that seem to show aluminium planes, see if the same plane appears on other photos, and if they show a metallic impression too. This would require much time, but would give a reliable answer if there were aluminium-painted SB or not.

Massimo,
for various SB wreck colours check
http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewto..._start_100.html
It is a fact that silver colour wasn't identified on any of those. Information in published literature is not consistant - depending on author, silver was used in 1937 or 1938, but it seems that it's use was limited.
There are thousends of 1941-42 German photos, but it is still hard to confirm use of silver paint on SB bombers. DB-3 might be a different story!

Cheers,
KL

[Learstang]

I'll see what I can do. This one I can offer immediately, it should be of interest especially to you (you know what I'm talking about). Orlov put it in PS and I hope he'll come back to it:
"Что меня мучает и не дает спать по ночам?Откуда Пилавски взял никогда не выпускавшиеся советской промышленностью аэролаки второго покрытия АII Светло-коричневый и АII Коричневый? На этом фоне меркнут другие его эмали, такие как Тракторная зеленая и Заводская зеленая АЭ-5…."
What's bothering me and doesn't let me sleep at night? Where did Pilawskii get AII Light-brown and AII Brown as these aero-lacquers of the second coverage were never manufactured by the soviet industry? In that context his other enamels such as Tractor green and Factory green AE-5 seem of minor importance.
Cheers,
Mario

Thank you, Mario! That leads to the question - what brown was used on IL-2's and when did it start being applied? That's one of the main questions I still have regarding Shturmovik colouration.

Learstang

[Massimo Tessitor...]

Massimo,
for various SB wreck colours check
http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewto..._start_100.html
It is a fact that silver colour wasn't identified on any of those. Information in published literature is not consistant - depending on author, silver was used in 1937 or 1938, but it seems that it's use was limited.
There are thousends of 1941-42 German photos, but it is still hard to confirm use of silver paint on SB bombers. DB-3 might be a different story!

Cheers,
KL

Hi Konstantin,
nice discussion, with a lot of photos of wrecks.
Now, my doubt: the greenish paint visible on so many of the wrecks is a yellowish underlying primer under the light grey layer, or it is a remain of a camouflage green?

Thank you, Mario! That leads to the question - what brown was used on IL-2's and when did it start being applied? That's one of the main questions I still have regarding Shturmovik colouration.

Learstang

If I can answer: AMT-1 light brown, aside AMT-4 green amd AMT-12 dark grey, or their oil equivalents, since 1943.

Massimo

This post has been edited by Massimo Tessitori: Nov 12 2009, 11:00 AM