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Soviet interior color question


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I have an Accurate Miniatures 1/48 IL-2m3 (which I am converting to a photo-recce IL-2KR), which lists the interior color as "Interior Grey-Green". For color matches, they list 34226 (FS595), and ModelMaster 2071 (RAL 02 - Grau). I chose the ModelMaster color, because that is the brand paint I have on hand. The IPMS Stockholm color chart says RAL 02 is a match for FS34159. Here's the two FS chips:

http://www.colorserver.net/showcolor.asp?fs=34159+34226#

My bottle of RAL 02 Grau doesn't look anything like either of those two colors, there is no green tint to it at all. If anybody has built this plane, what color did you use for the interior?

BTW, FS34159 just happens to be SAC Bomber Green.

Larry

Edited by ReccePhreak
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I use Polly Scale RLM 02 Gray (Grau) for most of my VVS cockpits; it's plenty "green" and, given the vagueries of WWII Soviet colors, seems to be a good (if rather ironic) compromise.

:cheers:

Old Blind Dog

Interesting. :(

My ModelMaster RLM 02 Grau, definitely does NOT have any green tint to it. Maybe it's a bad batch?

Larry

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WEM makes a really nice IMUP, I suggest using that. If you think that MM RLM 02 has no green in it, spray it right next to a light gull gray and check out how the green suddenly pops out.

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NO, NO, NO!!! Do not use RLM 02 in an Il-2 Shturmovik (note spelling) cockpit!!! The color was actually IMUP Blue-Grey Metal Primer, which has far more blue in it than grey. To see interpretations, check out the model section of the VVS site (http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/).

Matt,

How do you know for SURE that there was nothing SIMILAR to RLM02 used?

Btw I have not seen ANY mention of "IMUP" in Russian research. They state however A-14 "Steel Gray" as a standard cockpit paint for period 1937-1950!

My $0.02

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I would suggest you get a copy of IL-2 TYPE 3 AND IL-10/AVIA B-33 IN DETAIL published by Wings and Wheels Publications and also IL-10 COLORS AND MARKINGS published by 4+. Both have plenty of detail interior color pics. Also, I would suggest you check out White Ensign Models paints. They carry the common Soviet GPW cockpit colors IMUP, wood aerolak and ALG-5. Tamiya XF-53 is a pretty good match for A-14. Testors # 2379 Flat Interior Grey is pretty close to ALG-5.

Edited by Tyronesdaddy
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Matt,

How do you know for SURE that there was nothing SIMILAR to RLM02 used?

Btw I have not seen ANY mention of "IMUP" in Russian research. They state however A-14 "Steel Gray" as a standard cockpit paint for period 1937-1950!

My $0.02

Because, so far as I know, they just didn't use it. So far as I can tell, based in the VERY extensive research conducted by Erik Pilawski (see the website Matt mentioned) they had their own, very extensive (albeit confusing at times) paint standards. Check out Erik's book too, a must have if anyone anticipates building many VVS aircraft.

Warren

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Because, so far as I know, they just didn't use it. So far as I can tell, based in the VERY extensive research conducted by Erik Pilawski (see the website Matt mentioned) they had their own, very extensive (albeit confusing at times) paint standards. Check out Erik's book too, a must have if anyone anticipates building many VVS aircraft.

Warren

I'm very familiar with VVS site and Mr.Pilawskii book. You mention just this one source so how do you know it's correct? I highly admire Mr.Pilawskii work but he has been proven wrong more than once. There has been a research going on elswhere, Russia proper in the first place. Btw VVS painting standards don't seem neither that extensive nor confusing. Russian sources are readily accessible on internet but some are in Russian only which may be a problem for many people.

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Sakai, I will admit that Erik Pilawski's work is not perfect, no one's is. However I do not have the information to prove him wrong, and so I am willing to accept what he says. So far I see Erik's book as the best one-stop source for Soviet fighter colors and the VVS site as the best one stop source for color research for other, non-fighter aircraft. In the end you have to take one of two approaches to this:

- "I can paint my model with (fill in the blank) because no one has found incontrovertible truth that they absolutely did not use it." This is wonderful logic, as it is nearly impossible to disprove a negative. Just like when my son and nephew were little, I told them that my elephant repellent was the best in the world. They told me there were no elephants where we lived. I replied "see how good it works?"

- "I will paint my model in colors that have been shown to have been in use by (fill in the blank).

Do you have any verifiable research to show that the Soviets did use something like RLM 02? If so, I am absolutely certain you will make a lot of modelers happy for sharing it if for no other reason the sheer convenience of using a readily available paint.

Warren

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Sakai, I will admit that Erik Pilawski's work is not perfect, no one's is. However I do not have the information to prove him wrong, and so I am willing to accept what he says. So far I see Erik's book as the best one-stop source for Soviet fighter colors and the VVS site as the best one stop source for color research for other, non-fighter aircraft. In the end you have to take one of two approaches to this:

- "I can paint my model with (fill in the blank) because no one has found incontrovertible truth that they absolutely did not use it." This is wonderful logic, as it is nearly impossible to disprove a negative. Just like when my son and nephew were little, I told them that my elephant repellent was the best in the world. They told me there were no elephants where we lived. I replied "see how good it works?"

- "I will paint my model in colors that have been shown to have been in use by (fill in the blank).

Do you have any verifiable research to show that the Soviets did use something like RLM 02? If so, I am absolutely certain you will make a lot of modelers happy for sharing it if for no other reason the sheer convenience of using a readily available paint.

Warren

Warren,

I fully disagree with your statement that "Erik's book as the best one-stop source for Soviet fighter colors and the VVS site as the best one stop source for color research for other, non-fighter aircraft". On the other hand I understand too much reliance on English-only reference.

I'm not a researcher so I cann't prove that VVS did use something like RLM02 but what surprises me when Matt is yelling "NO, NO, NO, don't use it!" Where is his proof?

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I fully disagree with your statement that "Erik's book as the best one-stop source for Soviet fighter colors and the VVS site as the best one stop source for color research for other, non-fighter aircraft".

Okay. Please provide us with alternative references that would fulfill the requirement for the "best one-stop source for Soviet fighter colors and the VVS site as the best one stop source for color research for other, non-fighter aircraft". I don't want to spend more on VVS reference books.

Don

P.S. - Why should you be surprised by Mr. Bittner's response? You likewise offer no references to bolster your opinion.

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Sakai,

My fault for not clarifying: I think it is the best source in print form (book) and in English. I never had the opportunity to learn Russian, nor do I have the finances to travel there to research. Because of that, and my interest in this only stretches to modeling (a casual, relaxing hobby) I am willing to take what he says in there regarding color on faith since I have no other evidence to disprove him.

I cannot speak for Matt, I am sure that he will chime back in. However he, I, and all the other WWI nuts have a sore spot from when one of our members on the WWI Modeling list mentioned years ago that a color used on German a/c was close to RLM02. After that posing somone ran with that, and now, very unfortunately, it has become an internet truth that the Germans used RLM02 in WWI. I guess I should call it the RLM02 sore spot. :nanner:

Warren

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Okay. Please provide us with alternative references that would fulfill the requirement for the "best one-stop source for Soviet fighter colors and the VVS site as the best one stop source for color research for other, non-fighter aircraft". I don't want to spend more on VVS reference books.

Don

P.S. - Why should you be surprised by Mr. Bittner's response? You likewise offer no references to bolster your opinion.

There is nothing like that i.e. best one-stop source. You need to use several, compare and sometimes interpolate. I'd personally trust original research like series of articles by Vakhlamov and Orlov which are here

http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_954.html

Apparently EP was drawing heavily on this original work but he's too much relying on analysis of B&W pictures.

Another highly recommended work is "Colors of the Falcons" published by Iliad Designs.

My surprise in Matt's response comes from such a resolute and decisive tone.

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"There is nothing like that i.e. best one-stop source. You need to use several, compare and sometimes interpolate."

Yes, Sakai, for the casual modeler like Larry, others, and me there is. I completely understand about research, several sources, etc. Going back now to work on my rationale for defending my Masters, I go before my board within two weeks. Yes, I have used more than one source. :nanner:

Warren

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Sakai,

My fault for not clarifying: I think it is the best source in print form (book) and in English. I never had the opportunity to learn Russian, nor do I have the finances to travel there to research. Because of that, and my interest in this only stretches to modeling (a casual, relaxing hobby) I am willing to take what he says in there regarding color on faith since I have no other evidence to disprove him.

I cannot speak for Matt, I am sure that he will chime back in. However he, I, and all the other WWI nuts have a sore spot from when one of our members on the WWI Modeling list mentioned years ago that a color used on German a/c was close to RLM02. After that posing somone ran with that, and now, very unfortunately, it has become an internet truth that the Germans used RLM02 in WWI. I guess I should call it the RLM02 sore spot. :nanner:

Warren

Warren,

I had a chance to learn Russian and traveled there. Not for research though. Like I said I have no ambition in that department but I strive to make my models as historically accurate as possible. I just merely wanted to point to the fact that our modelling community should be more open-minded.

But many cliches stubornly persist. You still read that "japanese planes were heavily chipped because of the poor quality of paint" and majority of models are built accordingly. Somehow it became another internet truth.

I remember "RLM02 and WWI" debate. If I recall well was not meant to say it WAS RLM02 but very SIMILAR paint. Same analogy with Fokker turquiose and RLM65. Doesn't it make sense to you that some a/c painting practices/research/technology could have survived for 20 years?

Isn't a fact that there were German factories in Soviet Union before GWP and many things could have been inherited?

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"There is nothing like that i.e. best one-stop source. You need to use several, compare and sometimes interpolate."

Yes, Sakai, for the casual modeler like Larry, others, and me there is. I completely understand about research, several sources, etc. Going back now to work on my rationale for defending my Masters, I go before my board within two weeks. Yes, I have used more than one source. :D

Warren

Warren,

I suggest you take a moment and visit this page

http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/port...nce/russian.htm

reference links are dead for most part but before you read the article in it's entirety let me quote the author (Kari Lummpio)

"...One of the SB elevators at Vesivehmaa museum has damage hole so that the interiors of it can be examined. While the whole elevator is painted externally with silver inside it has been painted with color much like RLM02. This color is as pristine as one can be. There is no perfect FS match, 26307 is close in hue, but too light. This paint most probably is not the same "Medium Blue-Green/ Blue-Green Primer/Metal Use Primer" the VVSpage wants us to use, the color is nowhere near the *light blue* FS(2)5622. I would like to know what is the VVSpage's sample if there is one?..."

Even better article (by Jan Vihonen) is here

http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=544.15

Now I hope I made myself clear enough what I was talking about.

However if you wish to rely on Pilawskii book 100% be my guest.

Happy modeling.

Edit info: SBARC checked links...no problems with them.

Edited by terrysumner
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As a side note: Last scale model I finished was the Czechmodel Yak-15. Based on various sources, the cockpit could have been gray, aluminum, or the blue-green color. So, I guess there was quite a bit of variance in the late WWII/early Cold War VVS.

I opted for a blue-green cockpit, black instrument panel and silver in the wheel wells. I guess it was good enough for the judges as I placed 2nd place in my category in both last year's Dallas Scalefest and the Austin show, then placed 1st at ModelFiesta in San Antonio this year. Was it wrong or right? Too many differing references for me to really tell, but in the end I was happy with the results and had fun participating in this really cool hobby.

Modeling should be fun. If you're happy with painting your IL-2 cockpit in Barbie pink and you're gonna have fun doing it, then go for it man. As long as you are having fun and are happy with the results.

Stew

Edited by CenTexModeler
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Gentlemen,

I am locking this thread for a bit and am going to clean out all the less than ideal posts. The moderators discussed this thread and we decided that there is a lot of good info here that shouldn't be lost by a simple delete of the whole thing.

Okay all the antagonistic posts removed. Thread reopened.

Gentlemen please...let's leave the adversarial stuff out of the thread.

Edited by terrysumner
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"Edit info: SBARC checked links...no problems with them. "

Yes, my Kapersky software still indicates these are listed as sites that will attack my system and are blocked.

"Reported Attack Site!

This web site at www.fortunecity.com has been reported as an attack site and has been blocked based on your security preferences.

Attack sites try to install programs that steal private information, use your computer to attack others, or damage your system.

Some attack sites intentionally distribute harmful software, but many are compromised without the knowledge or permission of their owners."

YMMV, FWIW,

Warren

Edited by dixieflyer
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Hello!

Here is contribution to the thread topic, a picture of Il-2 floor:

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/TbiG-...feat=directlink

October 9th, 2007 on it's webpage Russian television channel Pervyj Kanal reported about a Il-2 wreck pulled out of bog near Pskov, Russia. The plane may have been one-seater as only one perished pilot was reported. He was Gregory Fedirko who was shot down January 12th, 1944. The report did not tell if the floor shown in the footage is from the Il-2 wreck in discussion.

I am sure Erik Pilawskii will tell you here what this piece is and what it is not. At least it is a variation to what is considered norm. And more like the ALG-5 sample in the 1948 Albom Nakrasok. Which has ALG-5 being a sort of green.

There seems still exist interest to my more than eleven old text created during one evening. Amazing. It was not meant to be taken that serious. Nobody has ever asked me if it is ok to put on their homepages. Answer would have been negative. Basics on the text are still valid, but many details would need updating and correction. Today the tone would be different too, am not any more the young angry man I used to be. Three kids and dozen years of marriage makes miracles to soul.

The original posting in rec.models.scale and the whole thread to which it was posted is easily found in internet archives. Just follow these steps:

To find rec.models.scale the discussion posts use Google search. On the header row click "Groups" or if not shown choose "More" and then "Groups". Click "Advanced Groups Search". Use keywords: silver VVS and add author "Lumppio". It will return three of my posts, among them the two which are of interest here:

The February 14th, 1998 one:

http://groups.google.fi/group/rec.models.s...8b0eb5ef7b211aa

The October 23th, 1998 one:

http://groups.google.fi/group/rec.models.s...02e0640a33d104/

Regards,

Kari Lumppio

Edited by Kari Lumppio
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You sound fairly apologetic, why? What should really matter, rather than your tone at that time, are the facts. 10 years after, do those facts stand or not? What corrections do you mean? Bring them on. If I were you I'd be kind of proud to have challenged "uncontested authority" whom I no longer believe-and am not alone. Your fellow countryman, Jan Vihonen, posted recently on sovierwarplanes forum convincing evidence of aluminum paint use for markings and other color samples. It supports what you had written.

If you lost interest in the topic over those years it can be understood. If not follow through. I've always appreciated what you've produced.

Cheers

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