madcow Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 Okay... I've start buidling this. I did not start with the cockpit as I still not quite sure what colors to use. I started with the rear section. So far I've closed the bomb bay (easier that I thought it would be) and built the tail section. My question is: Since I won't be using the FAB-250 bombs, do I need to sand down the square bumps on the front of the lower fuselage? That's where the bomb pylons would attach. I have not yet seen a clear photo of that area, but since the Tu-22M2 doesn't carry those bombs, maybe the bumps are just there on the M3. TIA, Ricardo Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MiG31 Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 For what it's worth, here's a photo of what I assume is the area in question, as the pylons attach to the underside of the intakes on the M3. There are two bumps side-by-side further aft, but there's only one on the M3. I'm not quite sure this is what you're looking for, however. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Williams Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 AFAIK, the M2 can carry the external racks that are in the kit. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Yuri Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 (edited) Not sure exactly what are you talking about, but it the "bumps" are the almost squared that are directly under the air intake, close to the intake splitter plate, those should be there even if the bomb racks are not fitted. In fact it I'm not wrong those are exhaust vents for the boundary layer that comes through the splitter plate Edited July 5, 2009 by Yuri Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sauragnmon Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 Shame you're not using the bomb racks, on one side, but on the other, If you get the M3, you could turn around and go for broke with the "There goes the neighbourhood" loadout as I call it - modify the Kh-55 rack to hold 250's, give her all four racks of 250's, essentially rigging her for full out saturation bombing. Just my thoughts. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Flankerman Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 Madcow...... 1. Both the M2 & M3 could (and did) carry the bomb racks under the intakes. 2. If you mean the 2.5mm raised square moulded just next to the exhaust under the intakes, then they are the front mounting lugs for the bomb racks. They should be there - even if the racks are not fitted. The 'bumps' that Yuri is referring to - on above and below the intake splitter plate - are the boundary layer spill exits - and should be opened up at the rear end. They are moulded solid in Trumpeters kit. Also - there are two exhaust outlets supplied by Trumpeter (as parts E18 & E19) to be attached just behind the nosewheel bay. Looking at my photos of an M2, there appears to be only one exhaust - on the starboard side. The aerials (parts E5) are correct - there are two of those. As for cockpit colours, I used a mix of green and blue for the panels (not that Turquoisey green), with light grey walls and floors. There are some colour photos I took of a Tu-22M3 cockpit on my Esci 'conversion' here. They show the colour quite well - note the pilots and WSO's front panels - and compare them to Trumpeter's decals and instruction sheet !!!!! FWIW, my detailed build will be appearing in Scale Aircraft Modelling International in a month or two's time..... Ken Quote Link to post Share on other sites
madcow Posted July 5, 2009 Author Share Posted July 5, 2009 Thanks for the info, Ken! I guess I'll build this one more or less per instructions. I want to buy another M2, so then I'll use your article on SAMI. I've been waiting almost 15 years for a decent Backfire model. I can't wait more to build this one :D As for the bombs Sauragnmon, I don't know... I see the Backfires more like air to surface missile carriers, not "rock droppers". I'll think about it though :D Ricardo Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sauragnmon Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 I find myself wondering at the loadout setup that is in the kit though, as there's such a broad layout of it that it leaves me to wonder. Kh-22 - the Backfires only carry three - Gloves and Semi-recessed. They run clean when carrying them too if I recall. Kh-55 - they don't tend to carry anything else when they have a rack of them in the bay - unless perhaps they carry some externally as well? FABs - 250 and 500's are what I've heard they carry, I don't know if they bay rack can be removed to accomodate a pair of 3000's? The Tu-22M/3 is essentially a massive Tactical Bomber, as most would reckon it in ways - it's used mostly in the strike role, carrying its breadth of Kh-22's for heavy Anti-shipping, but remember they are also the most effective bomber short of the Blackjack they have in service, since the Tu-95 has less speed, and is much more of a strategic and denotably Easier to detect bomber. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
madcow Posted July 6, 2009 Author Share Posted July 6, 2009 I think, not sure, but people here can answer that for me, that for an anti-shipping role, say sink a US carrier, they'd only carry one or two Kh-22, as three would severely limit their range. This is something I recall reading, but I'm not 100% sure. Ricardo Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sauragnmon Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 I dunno, but I know they can carry Three in the maximum payload delivery - the centerline in a recessed section of the bay, and a pair on the gloves - If I'm not mistaken, they IAR along the ingress to the target, and if necessary, again on the return. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MoFo Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Loadouts depend on whether you're talking 'theoretically possible' or 'actually used on a day-to-day basis in the real world'. Day to day in the real world, you're probably looking at a single Kitchen (often on one of the glove stations - this is probably the most common M2 loadout when probing NATO defences), or a partial stick of bombs on a MER. Or clean, for simple training/proficiency flights. Kinda like the USAF - modellers love to load their models up with live AMRAAMs and Sidewinders and a ton of laser guided bombs, but that's just not the way the planes fly on a daily basis: aircraft aren't bombed up to go downtown for a training sortie. There's a lot of potential load-outs that would have been used had the Cold War gone hot, and Backfires flooded over the Rhine, stuff that was in the books and planned for... but since the Cold War *stayed* cold, never used operationally and probably extremely rare in a training or 'real' flight situation. Moving more into the 'theoretically possible' side. A mix of missiles and bombs is permissible, and has been photographed. Could be one glove mounted Kitchen and a MER on the opposite side, could be a centreline mounted kitchen with MERs on both wing gloves. I would assume the same goes for the Kh-15, except you can't tell from photos - when it's in flight, the bay doors are closed, so who knows what's in there. Three Kh-22 would be possible, but unlikely, partly because it limits the range (severely, so you're burning more gas, faster, hence can't train as long; plus it eats up your budget). It's been photographed, and it's not uncommon to see the loadout on ground display aircraft, but in reality, it's not 'typical'. Kh-55 hasn't been integrated into the Tu-22. It was trialled on one M3 (IIRC), but it was just a test, and wasn't spread through the fleet. Kh-15 is, however. Unfortunately, because they're only carried in the bomb bay, you can't relly *tell* when they're being used. Or how many - another point being, even when a Tu-22 is flying with a Kh-15 (or bombs), they probably don't have a full load. It may only be a couple of missles, or a handful of bombs. Bomb-wise, the Tu-22 can carry anything up to and including the FAB-3000 (3000kg). Smaller calibres would be more common, particularly in a daily training scenario, but all sizes have been used, operationally, in Afghanistan. If you're looking for actual *combat* loadouts, that's pretty much your only choice - bombing raids over Afghanistan - unless you want to do a single Kh-22, single Backfire probing European/Alaskan/USN Carrier air space load. BTW, the bomb loads were discussed (with photos and references) in another thread recently, so searching Backfire or FAB should turn up more information. Also BTW, if you're willing to wait a month or two, there *will* be some aftermarket goodies coming for the kit. :lol: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
madcow Posted July 6, 2009 Author Share Posted July 6, 2009 (edited) Like I said in my previous post, I'll get another M2 to use what aftermarket and magazine articles I find, but I really want to see this one built, eheh. I don't know why but I've always like the backfires and finding shelf space for them won't be a problem Compared to the Tu-160, this one is "kind of" small. As for the loadout, I'll probably stick with one or two Kh-22. Can you tell us what aftermarket will come out? I'm betting on cockpit and exhausts. Maybe some Kh-22 with the fin folded (or just the fin), Eduard PE set... One of the things I don't understand about Trumpeter is the way they decide which of their kits are "multimedia" ones. For example. The Tu-160 has PE for the instrument panels, but almost none will be seen. The Tu-22M, that can be modeled with the doors open, only has decals for the instrument panels... Ricardo Edited July 6, 2009 by madcow Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sauragnmon Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Yeah, MoFo is right, for the most part if you're not doing Afghanistan, ostensibly, you're not using any major payloads. Oh, wait, didn't they fly a couple tours over Chechnya and Georgia in the recent conflicts? I could have sworn I remember hearing Backfires were doing strike flights in those conflicts - in which case, likely, they packed bombs or -15's. I forgot about the -15 and thought I was seeing the -55 in the bay in the CAD images. I still just find the Trumpy 22M's payload setup very odd, as it has the -15's on the bay rack, -22's on the gloves and the MERs on the intakes. I just don't see that being used, such a mixed bag of ordnance. I still would do my Backfires loaded for bear, so to speak, because they're just more... impressive that way. However, I'll collect in 144, because I Do have space concerns to make. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
madcow Posted July 6, 2009 Author Share Posted July 6, 2009 I'm focusing mine on an hypothetical anti-shipping load in the Atlantic, as if the cold war had gone hot. Ricardo Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Yuri Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Mofo si *mostly* right... As others said, the M2 can't carry the kh-55, so you can put them directly in the spares box... For the other armament it depens on the mission... Early M2 only carried one Kh-22 semirecessed under the fuselage (there are photos of early M2s even flying without wing pylons, so they were probably integrated sometime after initial operational capability). The M2 can also carry 2 Kh-22 under the wing gloves, so this could lead to a maximum load of 3 Kh-22, but I haven't ever seen such a load... as others said such a weight would greatly limit range. The most common load is either one Kh-22 under one of the winggloves (yes, asymmetrical) or sometimes 2 (but this loadout seems rare). This is for the antishipping role. The Kh-22 was never intended for "precision" bombing (such as the tomahawk). It has either a conventional warhead for the antishipping role (made to hit carriers and other ships with a big radar signature) or a nuclear warhead for land targets (so it wasn't so important for the weapon to be "accurate"). There was also an antiradiation version, but don't know how much it was used. Then it could be used to drop "dumb" bombs that could be carried either in the bomb bay or under the intakes. The M2s however were used mainly in the antishipping role, so the most common load would be one Kh-22 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sauragnmon Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 I have a feeling once she got up to cruise speeds, she wouldn't chug the fuel so much as she would on takeoff with a full brace of three, which would be most likely an operational "we're aiming at a CVBG" loadout - a full wing, carrying as many as possible, aimed straight at a CVBG with the absolute intent of destroying Something. As I said, I wonder if those are Kh-55 or Kh-15 in the bay - 15's would be more likely, in theory - alternately, if they're in the 1/144 Backfire when they come out (hail mary) and ARE 55's, I could always delight in taking those in the spares box, carving open the weapons bay on a Tu-95MR and doing her carrying a rack of 55's. Ostensibly, from what I've read, the Backfire can carry upwards of 64 FAB-250's - the sheer thought of that loadout says I want to whif that somewhere along the way - maybe put it in PLAAF markings or something, as if they'd actually got the rights to buy them as they'd sought prior to their necessity upgrade for the H-6K. The sheer design suggests MER's on the gloves, the intakes, and a rack in the bay. Besides, the man wants to do a minor whif - Cold War Gone Hot - so likely the big role for the Tu-22M2 would be the "sink as much tonnage as we possibly can" role of maritime strike. Bears would be the bomb trucks over land if I don't miss my guess. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Flankerman Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 (edited) Mofo si *mostly* right...As others said, the M2 can't carry the kh-55, so you can put them directly in the spares box... The Trumpeter M2 doesn't come equipped with Kh-55's . It comes with 6 x Kh-15 (AS-16 'Kickback') complete with rotary launcher - but the M2 variant didn't carry those either - so they can go into the spares box. It also comes with 2 x Kh-22 (AS-4 'Kitchen') - with wing glove racks to carry them. The Trumpeter M2 kit has recesses fore and aft of the weapons bay to take the Kh-22 semi-recessed, but the doors are not shaped to go round the recessed missile - you would have to cut them yourself if you want a centreline Kh-22. Strangely, having moulded recesses in the bottom of the fuselage for the Kh-22, Trumpeter then give you four parts to fill them in As you only have two Kh-22 missiles to play with - they go on the glove racks - or, as I have done, one Kh-22 on the port glove rack - with 6 x FAB-250's on the beam rack under the starboard intake. Can you tell us what aftermarket will come out? I'm betting on cockpit and exhausts. Maybe some Kh-22 with the fin folded (or just the fin), Eduard PE set... The Trumpeter cockpit is excellent - apart from the totally wrong seats and the 'reversed' decals - so we just need 4 x KT-1 ejection seats. The exhausts are perfectly OK as far as I can see. The Kh-22 fin fold is really easy - simple cut, add a couple of 'hinges', glue back on horizontally. Trumpeter have even moulded a recess in the Kh-22 with some internal 'workings' - they have obviously found the photographs of this equipment bay in M-Hobby and incorporated it into the missile. They provide a clear panel to go over the recess..... My Kh-22 painted as a training round plus the 'unused' Kh-15 - both mounted on scratch-built transport dolleys...... You can just see the equipment bay - under the rear horizontal fin on the Kh-22. Ken Edited July 6, 2009 by Flankerman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Williams Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Strangely, having moulded recesses in the bottom of the fuselage for the Kh-22, Trumpeter then give you four parts to fill them in I thought this was weird also. You would think they would just scribe the cover plates in instead ofgiving you the recess and making you fill it. I don't know what they were thinking. I can't imagine that the M3 kit will come with the alternate bomb bay doors with the cutout. I didn't think the M3 used the semi-recessed centerline carry, only the M2. BTW, was the Kh-22 ventral fin folded even when used under the centerline? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Flankerman Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 I thought this was weird also. You would think they would just scribe the cover plates in instead ofgiving you the recess and making you fill it. I don't know what they were thinking. I can't imagine that the M3 kit will come with the alternate bomb bay doors with the cutout. I didn't think the M3 used the semi-recessed centerline carry, only the M2.BTW, was the Kh-22 ventral fin folded even when used under the centerline? Dave, There are plenty of pics showing M3's with centreline recessed Kh-22's - see Airliners.net The ventral fin is also folded when on the centreline. Looking at the M3 shots on Trumpeters website, it doesn't look like they have Kh-22 doors in that kit either .... ????? Ken Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MoFo Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Various things.... Aftermarket... Can't say specifics just yet. ;) I wouldn't be surprised if NeOmega or Pavla do some seats, but that's just a WAG. The stuff I *know* is coming, is more in the line of Quickboost's stuff - simple detail conversions/corrections/updates. Fix some small issues, give you greater flexibility in versions... that sort of thing. An internal bomb rack set would be very cool, but I've never seen a really good walkaround. Kh-22s... It's always struck me as odd that they did an ARM version of the missile. One version to break aircraft carriers. One as a tactical nuke. And one to hunt... radars?!? Seems a little like overkill. Can you imagine operating a SAM installation, and seeing THAT thing barrelling down at you! The US hunts SCUDs with F-16s and HARMs. Russia hunts Patriots with Tu-22s and Kitchens! As for weapons and missions... Yuri is right. Apart from operational use in Afghanistan (primarily, and occasionally in Chechnia et. al.), it's basically an anti-shipping, cruise missile carrier. Buzz NATO airspace and shipping, play the game, and haul a big-*** missile (or two) to show what you're there for. Zooming a mile or two off a carrier with a load of dumb bombs would have a lot less effect than zooming by with a missile whose primary purpose is to sink carriers. And buzzing Sweden or Norway with what might be a tactical nuke (even if it's just a bright red training round) similarly is an effective way to rattle the sabres. So while there are a lot of different *plausible* loadouts, apart from dumb bombing (again, Afghanistan, Chechnia, etc.) your most commonly seen option is going to be one Kh-22 - usually centreline on the M2, it seems; typically on a wing glove with the M3 - with the occasional dual Kitchen load (usually both wing gloves, but occasionally one glove and one centreline). And incidentally, it's not uncommon to see MERs mounted even if they're empty. You could have a single Kitchen as the only ordnance, and still see the MERs on the jet. I wouldn't say it's usually done, since there's also plenty of photos showing the MERs removed, but it's common enough practice that you could go either way. Kh-55s. The Tu-22 doesn't carry Kh-55s. Period. And as Ken said, the Trumpeter kit doesn't *have* Kh-55s. Period. The Trumpeter's weapons mix. I know some people are 'complaining' (or commenting negatively, at least) about it, but I honestly don't see what the big deal is. The Tu-22M2 comes with Kh-15s, but the real airplane doesn't carry them. Great. Toss 'em in the spares box. Use them in your Tu-160, or Tu-95MS. Yeah, the kit would be cheaper without them, yadd yadda... but most of that is down to the importers, plus Trumpeter had to pay to cut the steel for the M3 kit anyway, so they're basically a 'free' addition to the M2. The kit comes with 2x Kitchen and a load of bombs, but you probably wouldn't see that in real life. Again, so you've got options with your ordnance, and parts for the spares box. We're unhappy about getting *too much* ordnance now?!? How is this bad? We complain about Hasegawa not including anything with their kits, that you *have* to buy their weapons sets to build an F-teen. Trumpeter not only gives you the dangly bits, but gives you options in terms of which dangly bits you want to use... and people aren't happy with it. Seriously... how is that an issue!?! Okay, the Kitchen recess thing *is* incredibly - I'd be shocked if there was a 'rececessed' bay door insert in the M3 kit, and it's something that *should* have been catered for (though frankly, I'd rather have to fill in the recesses for a smooth belly, than carve them out to mount a centreline Kitchen - it's easier to modify the bay doors than the whole lower fuselage) - and it'd be really nice if they included 3x Kitchens for those who want to do the crazy-heavy shipping role... It would also have been nice if they'd done some bomb racks in the bay (though may have run into the same lack of references I am), but I just don't see anything wrong with getting too much choice in the ordnance department. Kinetic releases an F-16 with lots of accuracy issues... but it's got a lot of ordnance so it gets praised. Trumpeter release a generally accurate Tu-22 (some minor nits but nothing fundamental like the Kinetic Viper) and it's got a lot or ordnance... so it gets criticized?!? Go figger. Anyway... rant mode off. ;) Kh-22 pt. 2... The ventral fin gets folded no matter where it's carried. In fact, there's actually less room under the fuselage - it looks like they could probably be extended under the wings, but it'd definately scrape the ground on the belly. There's a good shot in the WAPJ, pp.92 (probably in the Polygon book too) Oh, and this shot from the Aerofax book: And while looking for a centreline folded fin shot, I noticed this one, too. It's an 'airshow load', but still, interesting. Kh-22 centreline and under one wing glove, plus a stick of FABs. Goes to show that while it might not have been 'common', anything is possible. Also, pp. 138 of Yefim Gordon's Soviet/Russian Aircraft Weapons, shows a Tu-22M3 with 3x (live) Kh-22s. It may have been incredibly rare, but it *did* happen. And actually, I just realized.... The aircraft doesn't have any bort numbers in the pic. Weird. (I'm assuming it was retouched) I wonder if it was a propaganda/PR photo, or part of the SALT/START documentation. Clean, pristine aircraft, perfectly framed photo... it has the 'look' of an official government image about it. (BTW - the pics above aren't mine, so I'll be pulling them in a day or two) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Flankerman Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 (edited) Great photo MoFo - already added to the reference collection. Note the front mounting bracket for the MER - it is correctly moulded as a small raised square on Trumpeters kit. The Trumpy undercarriage retraction ram is wrong though - note in the photo that it connects up into the bay. Trumpy have it as a triangular structure that attached to nothing at the top end - simple to modify though...... Note also the closed mainwheel bay doors - Trumpeter provide a fully-detailed bay, but it is only seen when the gear is in transition - or when the doors are 'manually' opened for maint. I am with MoFo - Trumpeter have provided a great, accurate in outline, well moulded kit of the early Backfire. It has loads of silly little faults - but none of them are uncorrectable. They are to be applauded .......... I for one can't wait for the M3..... I'll be doing it with all the dangly bits out, mainwheel doors open etc.... Ken Edited July 6, 2009 by Flankerman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MiG31 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 I'm hoping they sell well enough to hit 1:144 soon. I'd like to have a M3 and M2 in 1:72 and 1:144, respectively. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
magman2 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 (edited) Net Photo Edited July 6, 2009 by magman2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Flankerman Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Net Photo The doors are open !! The doors are open !!! Ken Quote Link to post Share on other sites
janman Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Excellent photos, fellas! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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