Some Pics from Army Flight Test... Options

[BrittMac]

Oh god, the 249!

Agreed 100%. Simply don't see enough of that Cobra. I look at my SS #168 all the time just to look at that ship.
I have been whiffing a -F kit as a whif of what "could be" if another attack helo was needed on "the cheap" by using an existing airframe with an upgraded dynamic system. I mean, we have a bunch of Cobras just sitting around. New engine, rotor system, and some new electronics would do wonders I would think, but that is why it is a Whif....

My ultimate plan, however, is to get the Belcher Bits 412 conversion, and they chop the top off of a Fujimi AH-1S TOW Cobra kit. It has the proper exhaust to make the 249, all I would have to do is swap the cannon out for a Revell cannon since the Fujimi's is covered like the Marines use. I am not much for scratchbuilding because I haven't built up the confidence for it yet. Someday maybe. For now, I will go with the resin conversion lol.


Ray! Put some more 249 pics up somewhere! (without totally hijacking someones thread)

Also Ray, what is hanging from the 'Hawk? My eyes are seeing things that I don't want to type, so if you know that would be great.

Brandon

[EDWMatt]

Matt,
I thought I'd continue this great thread with a couple of shots. Any idea what equipment is on the UH-60? The UH-60 pic is from 1988 and I assume the 4 bladed AH-1E is from the same time period. Both pics are from Army Aviation Test Board negatives.
Ray

Ray,

Interesting Blackhawk. Looks like maybe some sort of ASE test, or perhaps a threat simulator. The two inboard stores are ECM pods (the one on the left is an ALQ-167 "Bullwinkle", and the one on the right resembles an early ALQ-119, which we used to carry on F-16's). The outboard boxes I believe are flare dispensers.

The Cobra is, of course, (correctly identified by Whiskey) the Model 249. Basically a Prod S with the rotor from a 412 (with clipped blades). Bell private venture for a Cobra upgrade. Army didn't bite. The 249 was circa 1982-83. I remember this aircraft at the Bell Arlington flight test facility when I was there in 1984. The Hellfire installation was a dummy - it had no systems installed to actually fire them. We flew a similar Hellfire installation on an S(MC) Cobra at Edwards in the 80's to characterize the aerodynamics.

This post has been edited by EDWMatt: Jan 22 2010, 05:35 PM

[EDWMatt]

Do you have any more pictures of this aircraft? I feel a modeling project coming on...

I do indeed. I'll PM you.

[rotorwash]

Ray,

Interesting Blackhawk. Looks like maybe some sort of ASE test, or perhaps a threat simulator. The two inboard stores are ECM pods (the one on the left is an ALQ-167 "Bullwinkle", and the one on the right resembles an early ALQ-119, which we used to carry on F-16's). The outboard boxes I believe are flare dispensers.

The Cobra is, of course, (correctly identified by Whiskey) the Model 249. Basically a Prod S with the rotor from a 412 (with clipped blades). Bell private venture for a Cobra upgrade. Army didn't bite. The 249 was circa 1982-83. I remember this aircraft at the Bell Arlington flight test facility when I was there in 1984. The Hellfire installation was a dummy - it had no systems installed to actually fire them. We flew a similar Hellfire installation on an S(MC) Cobra at Edwards in the 80's to characterize the aerodynamics.

Matt,
Thanks for the info. I would have assumed the Cobra had to start as an AH-1E as the Prod S has the old M28 turret. I got pics of AH-64's with the same setup as the UH-60 and I'll post those later.


Brandon,
Matt gave me his blessings to post test birds in his thread so I am assuming it is still alright (please speak up Matt if it's not!). With that in mind, here's you another 249 pic and a 4 bladed AH-1W.

Ray






This post has been edited by rotorwash: Jan 22 2010, 06:49 PM

[BrittMac]

Matt, that is awesome info. I was thinking the same thing about the stores on that Blackhawk pic, but I didn't want to sound crazy or stupid in saying that...lol. Glad you jumped on that grenade for me, now I know my eyes weren't decieving me.
I didn't have the slightest clue about the outboard stores though. Thanks, as always, for posting all this info.

Ray, I am a dummy. It was late when I posted and I was frazzled at dealing with getting my laptop running again. Got a trojan on it last weekend while outta town, took days to get it even running again. Still fixing stuff, but it is running.....
If I ask for more 249 pics, and say pretty pretty please, will more appear??????? Pretty pretty please!

[EDWMatt]

Matt,
Thanks for the info. I would have assumed the Cobra had to start as an AH-1E as the Prod S has the old M28 turret. I got pics of AH-64's with the same setup as the UH-60 and I'll post those later.


Brandon,
Matt gave me his blessings to post test birds in his thread so I am assuming it is still alright (please speak up Matt if it's not!). With that in mind, here's you another 249 pic and a 4 bladed AH-1W.

Ray

Ray,

Not hijacking the thread at all, Ray. You're always welcome to post test birds here.
I recall the 249 being a Prod airframe, but that's a 25-year old memory. All the ECAS trappings (TSU, turret) were dummies on it anyway (it had a "trainer nose" and dummy gun when I saw it).
Your second photo is not the 249, but the AH-1T+ prototype (later re-designated AH-1W). My FTE buddy Bill Spruce at Bell was in charge of that aircraft and I saw it under mod at Arlington (it was converted from a T). This is the famous "Gold Cobra", after it was repainted. Unfortunately, it only flew two flights in that spectacular black-and-gold scheme (Bell had some really beautiful demo schemes - there was a black 214ST with a huge white stallion on the side for the Chinese utility helicopter competition). When the flight test team from Pax River showed up, the Marine pilots refused to fly the T+ unless it was repainted "Marine Green", so it got this hasty paint job

[rotorwash]

Ray,

Not hijacking the thread at all, Ray. You're always welcome to post test birds here.
I recall the 249 being a Prod airframe, but that's a 25-year old memory. All the ECAS trappings (TSU, turret) were dummies on it anyway (it had a "trainer nose" and dummy gun when I saw it).
Your second photo is not the 249, but the AH-1T+ prototype (later re-designated AH-1W). My FTE buddy Bill Spruce at Bell was in charge of that aircraft and I saw it under mod at Arlington (it was converted from a T). This is the famous "Gold Cobra", after it was repainted. Unfortunately, it only flew two flights in that spectacular black-and-gold scheme (Bell had some really beautiful demo schemes - there was a black 214ST with a huge white stallion on the side for the Chinese utility helicopter competition). When the flight test team from Pax River showed up, the Marine pilots refused to fly the T+ unless it was repainted "Marine Green", so it got this hasty paint job

Matt,
Thanks for the info. I did ID the Whiskey correctly. I just put it up to contrast the 249. Here's a 4 bladed AH-1F. I'm not sure if it got a separate numerical designation. However, you can see a big difference between the blades on this bird and the 249.
Ray

[BrittMac]

Ray, is that real? Looks like an early version of a doctored photo, since photoshop wasn't around back then. Looks like to Cobra rotorheads laid over eachother and the control arms dont match up. Something just looks "off" to me. OH! the far blade doesn't show up through the canopy! That is another oddity.
It does look kinda like my whif to be though lol.

Matt, the trainer nose/dummy gun statement makes sense. The pics of the fuse just behind the gun look different on the 249 than other Cobras, and that would explain it. Also, there is a pic in the Cobra in Action book of the 249 being used as a demonstrator for an autohover system in which there is no gun and a trainer nose.

[EDWMatt]

[quote name='rotorwash' date='Jan 22 2010, 12:47 PM' post='1905948']
Matt,
I did ID the Whiskey correctly.

You're right, I'm an idiot! If I'd read your post more closely, I'd have seen that. My bad!

That 4-blade F is a Bell doctored photo. You'll notice the swashplate and pitch control links don't look quite right....

[rotorwash]

You're right, I'm an idiot! If I'd read your post more closely, I'd have seen that. My bad!

That 4-blade F is a Bell doctored photo. You'll notice the swashplate and pitch control links don't look quite right....

Not as big an idiot as me! Geez, you'd think I'd notice a missing rotor! Thanks Brandon and Matt for seeing the "issues" with that pic. I'll leave it up though as a WIF inspiration.
Ray

[rotorwash]

Brandon,
I found one more 249 pic for you.

Matt,
She looks like she could indeed have been a Prod S as you mentioned above. I assume this was the original configuration before all the fake armament was added.
Ray



This post has been edited by rotorwash: Jan 23 2010, 06:07 AM

[Floyd S. Werner,...]

Brandon,
I found one more 249 pic for you.

Matt,
She looks like she could indeed have been a Prod S as you mentioned above. I assume this was the original configuration before all the fake armament was added.
Ray

It definitely isn't a Fully Modernized. Note just one access panel on the tail boom. The nose here looks more like a fire bomber Cobra.
Floyd

[BrittMac]

I know one thing about the 249.....its an enigma until someone tells us about it from experience.
In the SS book #168 In Action, there are two pics. One seems like an older AH-1 because there is no bulge (alternator?) near the air inlet, but it has the TOW nose and 20mm gun (fake or whatever).
The pic next to it HAS the bulge for the alternator, but has the trainer nose with no TOW or gun. Seemingly same rotor system and all, but it is hard to tell looking at these pics if the airframe is the same

It LOOKS like the serial number is the same, but with these small grainy pics its hard to tell. I guess the 412 dynamic system could have been put on the airframe and then later on the different bulge was added (it is an alternator bulge right?), so I suppose the two pics could be the same airframe, just years apart.

Man, the more I see, the more I get confused. But I still want to see more. Thanks for the extra pic Ray. Ray, have I ever offered to send you pics of mine? Send me a PM with your addy and I will.
Brandon

[rotorwash]

I know one thing about the 249.....its an enigma until someone tells us about it from experience.
In the SS book #168 In Action, there are two pics. One seems like an older AH-1 because there is no bulge (alternator?) near the air inlet, but it has the TOW nose and 20mm gun (fake or whatever).
The pic next to it HAS the bulge for the alternator, but has the trainer nose with no TOW or gun. Seemingly same rotor system and all, but it is hard to tell looking at these pics if the airframe is the same

It LOOKS like the serial number is the same, but with these small grainy pics its hard to tell. I guess the 412 dynamic system could have been put on the airframe and then later on the different bulge was added (it is an alternator bulge right?), so I suppose the two pics could be the same airframe, just years apart.

Man, the more I see, the more I get confused. But I still want to see more. Thanks for the extra pic Ray. Ray, have I ever offered to send you pics of mine? Send me a PM with your addy and I will.
Brandon

Brandon,
I see what you mean about the different mods in the two pics. Hopefully, Matt can give us all more info. I'm just a pixel pusher in this case.
Ray

[Floyd S. Werner,...]

I'm just a pixel pusher in this case.

I want another fix man. You got to get me right. LOL OK Police humor there. LMAO
Floyd

[EDWMatt]

Brandon,
I see what you mean about the different mods in the two pics. Hopefully, Matt can give us all more info. I'm just a pixel pusher in this case.
Ray

Here's what I remember about the 249. Most of the info came from my flight test buddies at Bell Arlington and remember, these are 25-year-old memories.
When I was at Arlington in 1983 working OH-58 LTE testing, the 249 was in the hangar. The airframe was a flight-test bailment, and I recall it as being a new-build (Prod. S). The config was like in Ray's last photo, although I don't remember whether it had the TSU turret installed or not. Wish I'd gotten a pic, but Bell was a little sensitive about cameras, and I was lucky to get the pictures I did when I was there.
The 249 was solely a private venture by Bell, intended to try to interest the Army in a Cobra upgrade (sort of like the later OH-58D(X)). We used to joke in flight test that Bell sold mediocre helicopters to the Army cheap and made all their money selling upgrades. The rotor was pretty much a standard 412 rotor, but the blades were clipped to reduce the diameter. It had no armament systems whatsoever installed, but did have a flight test instrumentation package.
I did not see it move from the hangar in the 2 months I was at Arlington in 83 or when I was there in 84 and 85. The 412 rotor was a bit of a lemon at that time, with very high vibration levels. When I was there in 83, Bell was flying a 412 3 to 4 hours a day, every day, trying to solve the vibration problems. This is where they developed the LIVE vibration reduction system, with the mercury dampeners in it. If you're not familiar with the 412 rotor, it's 2 2-bladed rotors stacked on top of each other, so has two different tip-path planes, so I suspect vortex interaction caused a lot of the vib problems. Bell was developing the 680 rotor at this time also, so the 412 rotor was a dead end.
I don't believe the Army ever had any serious interest in the 249. Our test activity never flew it, so the PEO wasn't interested in it. All the attack helicopter budget was going to Apache, the Cobra was on the way out and there was no budget for major Cobra upgrades. ADTA at Eustis may possibly have flown it-I'm not sure. I think Bell kept it around as a systems evaluation airframe for a few years, as it was their only Army Cobra flight test airframe. Don't really know what what it's final disposition was.

Your pre-Photoshop doctored pic was a Bell convention PR handout. I'm pretty sure I've still got one in my stack of stuff. Probably got it at the '84 AHS convention.

[EDWMatt]

Since I'm on the board, I'll post a few more pics:



84-24256 (PV116) again, Edwards 1992. That's me in the front seat.

And a few oddballs:



AS365N1 N6003L, Edwards 1987. This was an Aerospatiale flight test ship and was leased by FSTC to evaluate the soft-in-plane rotorhead and "Fenestron" technology. We called it the "Whistling S**tcan", due to the noise of the fenestron. AATD later evaluated it in air-to-air combat tests (AACT 4) against an AH-64, an AH-1S and a Bell 406CS. Aerospatiale later converted it into the SA365K Panther armed demonstrator. It is still in operation in France as a civil aircraft.



Bell 214ST N3186W, Bishop CA, 1985. Ex-ERA Aviation. Evaluated as part of a proposed Foreign Military Sale.



XV-15A N702NA, Bell Arlington, 1983. This was Bell's test XV-15 (NASA had 703NA). Later crashed at Arlington when a cotter pin was left out of the pitch control system.



Ka-32, Ft. Worth, 1995. "Double Trouble", of the Threat Support Activity. This was originally an FSTC aircraft. Unlike many FSTC airframes, this was purchased new directly from AviaExport and had cockpit instrumentation in English. Was originally delivered in a blue-white civil scheme.



EH-60B (Delta), Crows Landing CA, 1993. At one time it was proposed to split the EH-60 mission into two components, with a dedicated SIGINT airframe and a dedicated jammer. This is the SIGINT airframe. It's 78-23013, "Daddy Longlegs", the old YEH-60B SOTAS airframe. Ultimately, SEMA didn't have the budget for dedicated airframes and procured Advanced Quick Fix

This post has been edited by EDWMatt: Jan 24 2010, 06:43 PM

[g0_command0]

Hi, i was just wondering if you have any info on the Army Test Division out at Moffett. They are one of the lesser known units at Moffett and I remember seeing their UH-60's from time to time.

[EDWMatt]

Hi, i was just wondering if you have any info on the Army Test Division out at Moffett. They are one of the lesser known units at Moffett and I remember seeing their UH-60's from time to time.

Sure do!
The unit at Moffett is called the Army Aeroflightdynamics Directorate (AFDD) and is a component of the Army Research Labs (ARL). They work in concert with the Rotorcraft Aeromechanics Branch at NASA Ames in advanced and theoretical helicopter aerodynamics, fluid dynamics, flight dynamics and crew station research. They have two UH-60's assigned: JUH-60A 82-23748 ("NASA 748") and JUH-60A 78-23012 ("NASA 750"). 748 is a former Army flight test aircraft from Edwards and has been used for rotor system dynamics research, among other things. 750 is the old Advanced Digital Optical Control System (ADOCS), used by Sikorsky to demonstrate a fly-by-light flight control system (the "Lighthawk"). 750 has had a variable stability flight control system and designated the RASCAL (Rotorcraft-Aircrew Systems Concepts Airborne Laboratory). The RASCAL was recently used to demonstrate a millimeter-wave radar system to assist helicopter crews landing in rough terrain in "brownout" conditions.
AFDD also had a NAH-1S Cobra Surrogate Trainer assigned (70-15979). This was one of the Cobras modified by the Army with the Apache PNVS to train Apache pilots prior to the Apache entering service. This helo was primarily used for crew station research, and I'm not sure it is still active.
They also have an standard OH-58C assigned for pilot proficiency flying.
The AFDD flight assets were scheduled to be transferred to NASA Dryden at Edwards during NASA aircraft operations consolidation in 1997 (I was hired by NASA to manage the rotary wing operation at Dryden). AFDD strongly opposed this and threatened to shut down the flight operation. They prevailed, and are now the only NASA flight operation still at Ames!

Here's a shot of NASA 748 with Army JT-34C 160959. The T-34 was modified as an airspeed pacer aircraft and is performing an airspeed calibration on 748 during the Rotor Limits program in 1993. 748 had a highly instrumented rotor system to measure the flow around the rotor.

[g0_command0]

"AFDD also had a NAH-1S Cobra Surrogate Trainer assigned (70-15979). This was one of the Cobras modified by the Army with the Apache PNVS to train Apache pilots prior to the Apache entering service. This helo was primarily used for crew station research, and I'm not sure it is still active.
They also have an standard OH-58C assigned for pilot proficiency flying."

I think ive only seen the OH-58C a few times as it was always in the hanger. AS for the Cobra, its( or another cobra at least) still there but its no longer active. I think it is stored in hangar 2 or 3 along with the X-Wing, F-18 and some other stuff.


Here is one of the NASA birds


This post has been edited by g0_command0: Jan 25 2010, 05:34 AM