Helo Design proposals and mockup pics

[rotorwash]

I scanned a bunch of proposals for the LHX program for the USAAM recently and thought some of you might get a kick out of them. There are more if anyone is interested.

Ray

Edited January 27, 2010 by rotorwash

[EDWMatt]

I scanned a bunch of proposals for the LHX program for the USAAM recently and thought some of you might get a kick out of them. There are more if anyone is interested.

Ray

Boy does this bring back some memories! I was on the original LHX eval team, and was two weeks away from being sent to Florida to be the government Comanche test manager when I resigned from the Army.

The first pic is a Sikorsky design (note the ABC rotor). There was another really neat variation on this design, with a big pusher ducted fan (like the X-49) on the tail. It was tiny, probably not much bigger than an OH-6. It would have been quite a little hotrod machine.

The second pic is a Hughes design. This design showed up in a lot of ads and PR handouts.

Both those designs were from the early "anything goes" period of the LHX program (when Bell was proposing a tilt-rotor), before the Army reigned in the program and decreed it was to be a conventional helicopter. There was some really weird stuff in that phase, including a Boeing design where the pilot didn't have any forward wind screen and used TV monitors to see out.

The third pic is an early Bell/McD proposal. Note the NOTAR. The final design was one of the most horrendously ugly aircraft I've ever seen (even uglier that Boeing Vertol's not-quite-tandem-not-quite-side-by-side AAH proposal...)

The forth pic is not an LHX at all, but an Sikorsky X-wing proposal. I have a pic to send you and a story to tell about my experience with the X-wing.

The last pic is an early version of the Boeing/Sikorsky proposal that eventually morphed into Comanche.

What fun stuff, Ray! I've got a bunch of old LHX "whif" artwork around (including a poster of a beautiful Keith Ferris painting of a Boeing/Sikorsky LHX in winter camo), I'll have to see if I can find some of it.

Edited January 27, 2010 by EDWMatt

[thatguy96]

I for one would love to see more. I might see about uploading some of the artist concepts from some of the documentation I have. When I go back to the NASM archives I'll have to see about photocopying and scanning at least some of the items as well.

[rotorwash]

I for one would love to see more. I might see about uploading some of the artist concepts from some of the documentation I have. When I go back to the NASM archives I'll have to see about photocopying and scanning at least some of the items as well.

You got it. This is pretty much all I have scanned at the moment. I know there is more, but it's hidden somewhere and I have to find it. Anyway, I'll number them to make it easier for Matt to tell us all what they are. Enjoy!

Ray

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9 Was this just the Comanche mockup?

[thatguy96]

Here are some I have (all from official documents; if I make it back to the NASM archives I'll try to copy some of the commercial proposals included there-in):

[EDWMatt]

You got it. This is pretty much all I have scanned at the moment. I know there is more, but it's hidden somewhere and I have to find it. Anyway, I'll number them to make it easier for Matt to tell us all what they are. Enjoy!

Ray

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9 Was this just the Comanche mockup?

Wow, Ray, you found a lot of stuff!

Hadn't seen #1 before. There's the Bell tilt-rotor proposal, along with the Sikorsky ABC. Bell went far enough to build a mockup of their little tilt rotor, the BAT.

#2 is an early Bell/McD, with both the utility and scout LHX. Originally there were to be two versions of LHX, the armed scout and a light utility. The utility version was eliminated pretty quickly to keep program costs down.

#3 is a Bell proposal. Not a variation of the Ringfin.

# 4&5 are Bell/McD. Their early designs were rather attractive, but got progressively uglier. Illustrations of the final design are extremely scarce, but I'll see if I can find one.

# 6,7,8 are early Boeing/Sikorsky. You'll note most of these early designs are single-seaters. LHX had some pretty challenging weight targets, and it was hoped to automate a lot of the target identification and weapons functions through what was called the Rotorcraft Pilot Assistant, but the technology never matured far enough to make it a reality.

You're correct, Ray, #9 is the RAH-66 mockup. I was at Sikorsky for the rollout and this was a really impressive piece of kit. It was mostly fiberglass and made by a company that built large trade show models. It had a full cockpit and you could sit in it. It looked pretty much like a real helicopter. It was a really shrewd marketing device on Boeing/Sikorsky's part. It was originally painted all black, this is the later camo scheme. Boeing/Sikorsky really had their act together and were far better organized than Bell/McD on LHX, but I suppose, in the long run, you might say Bell/McD won in the long run.

[EDWMatt]

Here are some I have (all from official documents; if I make it back to the NASM archives I'll try to copy some of the commercial proposals included there-in):

You've come up with some really neat stuff there, Joe!

I've seen the Chinook with the howitzers on the side before, and the second pic looks like one of Bell's really early proposals for an "Iroquois Warrior", which would eventually become the Cobra. But what's that Huey? Is that some form of rotary rocket launcher?

One really bizarre idea I saw (don't know if you've run across it yet) was a mobile basing solution for Minuteman (or perhaps MX) missiles that used four Skycrane's in a box formation to carry a Minuteman in the center of the square through a series of cables! Made the Piasecki Helistat look sane.

[rotorwash]

You've come up with some really neat stuff there, Joe!

I've seen the Chinook with the howitzers on the side before, and the second pic looks like one of Bell's really early proposals for an "Iroquois Warrior", which would eventually become the Cobra. But what's that Huey? Is that some form of rotary rocket launcher?

One really bizarre idea I saw (don't know if you've run across it yet) was a mobile basing solution for Minuteman (or perhaps MX) missiles that used four Skycrane's in a box formation to carry a Minuteman in the center of the square through a series of cables! Made the Piasecki Helistat look sane.

Matt,

Thanks as always for the info.

Joe,

I have that Huey drawing but the others are new to me. I'm going to change the title of the thread to something more fitting it's current content.

I would encourage anyone who would like to post design proposals that didn't make it, either drawings or mockups here. let's see if we can keep this and the Test Bird thread alive for a while. My thought is that these threads are to inspire modelers but if anyone thinks they don't belong in the helo forum, speak up, and I'll start a new one in the research forum.

Ray

Edited January 27, 2010 by rotorwash

[thatguy96]

You've come up with some really neat stuff there, Joe!

I've seen the Chinook with the howitzers on the side before, and the second pic looks like one of Bell's really early proposals for an "Iroquois Warrior", which would eventually become the Cobra. But what's that Huey? Is that some form of rotary rocket launcher?

One really bizarre idea I saw (don't know if you've run across it yet) was a mobile basing solution for Minuteman (or perhaps MX) missiles that used four Skycrane's in a box formation to carry a Minuteman in the center of the square through a series of cables! Made the Piasecki Helistat look sane.

Yeah, the Chinook was a design proposal to mate 2 XM204 howitzers to the CH-47C. The weapons were intended to either be fed from a really complex conveyor while in flight or detached to fire from the ground. It appears to be the last of the Aerial Artillery proposals, and dates to 1972. The concept of operations is very similar to that outlined for the very first Aerial Artillery Studies using H-34 types with the 4.5" rocket.

Here's a diagram of the conveyor:

The drawing that looks like something from my dust covers in high school comes from a 1968 report on the evolution of the armed helicopter. The proposal encompasses everything the authors see as relevant for an armed helicopter. A sort of assault-transport-bomber. What's interesting is how similar it is in many respects to the Hind-Ds.

WASP is something I'm still trying to find more information on. It was a 40mm rocket system that appears to have fired from a preloaded "cassette" that could be easily reloaded. The launcher also appears to have fired from a single position (like a rotary barreled gun), with each launch tube rotating into position before firing. Emerson Electric was the contractor on this. I found reference to it in documents at the National Air and Space Museum Archives. It dates to the 1964-1965 time frame. I'm not at all sure if the rocket or the launcher was at all related to the MICOM-40/MICAW-40 rocket systems that had been developed earlier. There's very little on those as well. A report by the US Army's Limited Warfare Laboratory in 1966 showed that it has also been considered as weapon for counter-ambush scenarios, mounted on a fixed pedestal on ground vehicles. Each WASP module for those tests had 20 rockets. It could easily be that this used the WASP rocket and not the intended aircraft launcher.

Edited January 27, 2010 by thatguy96

[TaiidanTomcat]

Thanks for these!! As a What-If?/helo fan i am in hog heaven!

[rotorwash]

"The third pic is an early Bell/McD proposal. Note the NOTAR. The final design was one of the most horrendously ugly aircraft I've ever seen (even uglier that Boeing Vertol's not-quite-tandem-not-quite-side-by-side AAH proposal...)"

Are you sure about that? This baby is pretty friggin ugly! I assume this is a mockup. Please tell me it never flew.

Ray

One of the most beautiful aircraft ever built next to one of the ugliest ever proposed:

[EDWMatt]

"The third pic is an early Bell/McD proposal. Note the NOTAR. The final design was one of the most horrendously ugly aircraft I've ever seen (even uglier that Boeing Vertol's not-quite-tandem-not-quite-side-by-side AAH proposal...)"

Are you sure about that? This baby is pretty friggin ugly! I assume this is a mockup. Please tell me it never flew.

Ray

One of the most beautiful aircraft ever built next to one of the ugliest ever proposed:

Excellent, you found pics the Vertol AAH! All the disadvantages of tandem and side-by-side seating combined in one aircraft! What were they thinking? Fortunately never made it past the mock-up stage and was eliminated before the AAH flyoff. Still looking for the final FirstTeam design - I have an illustration somewhere. I was shocked when I saw it. Absolutely nothing graceful about it. Basically, it looked like an Apache cockpit area with a distended belly and a very large NOTAR boom angled downward and two very angular boxy sponsons. Resembled a tadpole.

[rotorwash]

LoL what is this thing a Super Duper Jumbo Cobra it is not so ugly it looks like crossbreed between Apache and Cobra

Nope, that would be the YAH-63. Perhaps the ugliest bird Bell ever concocted. How could the company that designed the Cobra come up with this monstrosity (I know a bit of this story actually, but it's really not relevant to modeling)!

Ray

And here's the winner of the AAH competition next to the loser. As much as I hate to admit it, I think the right bird won.

Edited January 27, 2010 by rotorwash

[EDWMatt]

Nope, that would be the YAH-63. Perhaps the ugliest bird Bell ever concocted. How could the company that designed the Cobra come up with this monstrosity (I know a bit of this story actually, but it's really not relevant to modeling)!

Ray

You know, come to think of it, the nose on the final SuperTeam LHX looked a lot like the '63, just a bit more angular! Now add a large NOTAR boom, an H tail, two box-shaped sponsons and a 680 rotor and you've got it!

[rotorwash]

"Yeah, the Chinook was a design proposal to mate 2 XM204 howitzers to the CH-47C."

Well looky here what I found rummaging through my files. I'm betting those are 40mm rockets similar to the "WASP" launcher on the Huey.

Ray

[thatguy96]

I'm not sure. The WASP dates from the mid-1960s. That picture also appears to show a variant on the proposed XM204 installation, which dates from the late-1960s to early-1970s. The one in the document I have shows a much cruder installation using I-beams to suspend the weapons off to the sides. However, the target depicted is decidedly southeast Asian in nature suggesting it comes before the end of the conflict. Its very interesting. The rocket launcher looks retractable. What is that picture from?

Found this picture when I went searching. Apparently this is a desk display model of the rocket itself:

Edited January 28, 2010 by thatguy96

[arkhunter2002]

Neat find Ray!

Thanks for sharing that one.

Take care,

Austin

[BrittMac]

I can only imagine having a 105mm firing forward BEHIND you as being an interesting experience! That would be alot more than a minigun for sure.

[thatguy96]

Going back over the design document, apparently in 1964, WECOM tested the fitting of an 105mm howitzer to the H-21A, and in 1965 tested the installation of a 75mm howitzer to the same type of helicopter. In 1970 they released a document concerning an Aerial Artillery Weapon (Externally Mounted Concept). This would probably be the system in question in Ray's picture. It would be great to get access to the test documents and to the 1970 design study.

[rotorwash]

I'm not sure. The WASP dates from the mid-1960s. That picture also appears to show a variant on the proposed XM204 installation, which dates from the late-1960s to early-1970s. The one in the document I have shows a much cruder installation using I-beams to suspend the weapons off to the sides. However, the target depicted is decidedly southeast Asian in nature suggesting it comes before the end of the conflict. Its very interesting. The rocket launcher looks retractable. What is that picture from?

Found this picture when I went searching. Apparently this is a desk display model of the rocket itself:

Joe,

The photo is in one of the armament folders I sent you and it's just a random shot. Regarding the above photo, several things came to mind when I saw it, but "rocket" wasn't even in the top 3!

Ray

Edited January 28, 2010 by rotorwash

[thatguy96]

Ray, I don't see it in the pictures you sent me. Doesn't mean its not there though. On the WASP there, I get the feeling this was a spin-stabilized rocket rather than a fin-stabilized rocket.

[rotorwash]

Here's one that should get the What-IF juices flowing. A proposal for a Navy AH-64. I think this one is very buildable.

Ray

Edited January 28, 2010 by rotorwash

[arkhunter2002]

Someone could do a High-Vis AH-64 Sea Apache... that would look pretty cool.

Edited January 28, 2010 by arkhunter2002

[TaiidanTomcat]

Apache on a pogo stick!!

[EDWMatt]

Here's one that should get the What-IF juices flowing. A proposal for a Navy AH-64. I think this one is very buildable.

Ray

There was an even later design iteration that moved the radar to the nose, eliminated the FABS (the electronics were moved to the belly) and moved the landing gear to to the tips of the stub wings and made it retractable. The Avistar site has a pretty good writeup, showing all the perturbations:

http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/mc..._sea_apache.php

That Vertol tandem rotor design sure looks a lot like BV's pure helicopter HMX proposal, the 360:

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Boeing/Boei...-360/1234935/M/