Acrylic or enamel

[melk]

Okay, getting ready to start building after a loooong time. I have my airbrush and compressor sorted out, I think, and now what kind of paint? I like the thought of acrylics, less odor, easier cleanup, but do enamels work better? Which one would be better for a rank beginner?

Thanks,

Mike

[Ace Combat Zero]

http://www.scalemodelguide.com/painting-weathering/painting-guide/paint-types/

Hope this helps, melk.

[Ruud]

a hard question to answer. Some of the most experience modelers out there will disagree on which is better.

For acrylics, i have used MM (work fine for me) and i am now trying Gunze Sangyo's Mr Hobby Aqueous paint (seems to do very well too). I have heard many good things about Tamiya's paints too.

[toadwbg]

This is not a bad question, but it comes up here frequently. Search this forum a little for some past debates.

[DutyCat]

The short answer is enamels offer better, more consistent performance across the full spectrum of modeling applications. I do not think you will get much debate on that.

However, they are also mildly toxic and smelly, and require solvent based thinners and cleaning, as well as the attendant precautions.

You can get excellent results from acrylics once you learn how to use them. You just have to compensate for some of their shortcomings.

Edited December 2, 2013 by DutyCat

[Triarius]

Good quality acrylics have no shortcomings of which I am aware. However, if you are accustomed to enamels, you must understand that acrylics behave much differently—the only thing they really have in common with enamels is that they are coatings.

Perhaps the biggest difference, other than ease of cleanup, is that acrylics do not tolerate application to a dirty surface. Having been professionally involved in the paint industry, I do not tolerate application of paint on a poorly prepared surface. Failure of adhesion on a poorly prepared surface is not a fault of the coating, but of the application.

There is a wealth of good advice and information about paint on this site. It's worth digging for and thinking about. If you have specific questions, ask and ye shall receive.

[volzj]

I do not tolerate application of paint on a poorly prepared surface. Failure of adhesion on a poorly prepared surface is not a fault of the coating, but of the application.

Unless it is Model Master acrylics in question. You can do everything right, all the surface prep in the world, and have Polly Scale, Tamiya, Gunze, Vallejo all stick perfectly, and still have MM acrylics fail adhesion on the same kit. They are inferior plain and simple. Sometimes it is a BAD coatings fault...

[Triarius]

Unless it is Model Master acrylics in question. You can do everything right, all the surface prep in the world, and have Polly Scale, Tamiya, Gunze, Vallejo all stick perfectly, and still have MM acrylics fail adhesion on the same kit. They are inferior plain and simple. Sometimes it is a BAD coatings fault...

Mind you, I said a good quality acrylics.

[Janissary]

Good quality acrylics have no shortcomings of which I am aware. However, if you are accustomed to enamels, you must understand that acrylics behave much differently—the only thing they really have in common with enamels is that they are coatings.

Perhaps the biggest difference, other than ease of cleanup, is that acrylics do not tolerate application to a dirty surface. Having been professionally involved in the paint industry, I do not tolerate application of paint on a poorly prepared surface. Failure of adhesion on a poorly prepared surface is not a fault of the coating, but of the application.

There is a wealth of good advice and information about paint on this site. It's worth digging for and thinking about. If you have specific questions, ask and ye shall receive.

I have been debating this in my head for a while now. I am using Tamiya and Gunze acrylics, and I am very happy with them. My only issue is that a few bad experiences have forced me to use a lacquer primer (Surfacer 1200) underneath, no matter what the situation is. This is especially true if I will later be masking using Tamiya tape, or will be scrubbing the surface (to clean the oil wash for instance).

I once washed the built model using dishwashing detergent and hot water, let it dry, cleaned the surface really well using denatured alcohol, and then used Tamiya XF-20 Sky Grey as a primer. I then applied Gunze h305 Gunship gray. I then masked a few places and there; the paint apparently did not adhere well and came off to my horror! Waited for the paint to cure before each step. Ever since then, I always use Surface 1200. No problems.

I truly want to know this: Will Tamiya/Gunze acrylics be just as robust if sprayed (and cured) on an unprimed surface? My guess is that one would still be taking a risk doing this. I would still use a primer regardless, but I want to know the answer still. My environment variables (humidity, temperature) are pretty standard.

What prompted me is this:

MyDZ models

DZ models other build

DZ model new blog page

From what I can tell, he uses Tamiya paints and never uses primer. I am quite impressed by his results.

[Triarius]

I have been debating this in my head for a while now. I am using Tamiya and Gunze acrylics, and I am very happy with them. My only issue is that a few bad experiences have forced me to use a lacquer primer (Surfacer 1200) underneath, no matter what the situation is. This is especially true if I will later be masking using Tamiya tape, or will be scrubbing the surface (to clean the oil wash for instance).

I once washed the built model using dishwashing detergent and hot water, let it dry, cleaned the surface really well using denatured alcohol, and then used Tamiya XF-20 Sky Grey as a primer. I then applied Gunze h305 Gunship gray. I then masked a few places and there; the paint apparently did not adhere well and came off to my horror! Waited for the paint to cure before each step. Ever since then, I always use Surface 1200. No problems.

I truly want to know this: Will Tamiya/Gunze acrylics be just as robust if sprayed (and cured) on an unprimed surface? My guess is that one would still be taking a risk doing this. I would still use a primer regardless, but I want to know the answer still. My environment variables (humidity, temperature) are pretty standard.

What prompted me is this:

MyDZ models

DZ models other build

DZ model new blog page

From what I can tell, he uses Tamiya paints and never uses primer. I am quite impressed by his results.

When I prime, I use Tamiya Sky Gray unless the finish is going to be natural metal, white, yellow, or orange (in which cases I use a metallic paint.) Otherwise, i generally paint on bare plastic or resin. No adhesion problems, and I use acrylics almost exclusively. I even used Tamiya acrylics on my hunting bow. Years of brush busting with it, and NO scratches.

In all fairness, most modelers who have trouble with acrylic adhesion (other than those who use Testors—that's the paint's fault) don't get the surface clean enough. This is especially true if they "grew up" using enamels, which tolerate skin oil, excess mold release or plasticizer migrating from inside the plastic far better than acrylics.

The bugbears for surface adhesion are:

• Mold release from the manufacturing process. This is true of both plastic and resin. This stuff can be extremely difficult to remove, though most of the product now in use are easier to remove than their predecessors. This is not necessarily true of kits from China, former Soviet Bloc, or third world countries. Those kits may require sterner measures than I describe here.
• Plasticizer migrating to the surface. Also true of both plastic and resin. While no harder to remove than some mold release agents, these chemicals are resident in the plastic—they are what makes it "plastic" instead of brittle. Sometimes the plastic in a kit may contain an excess of these, and they can continue to migrate to the surface for prolonged periods of time. See the underlined portion of the previous note. The more recent the manufacture, the more likely this is to be a problem. These chemicals are what creates that "new car smell," so you get some idea of how persistent they can be.
• Improper proportioning of resin and hardener in resin castings. This is a special case. Save the packaging intact when you buy resin parts. If they continue to smell strongly a few days after you open the package, consider exchanging them for a different set. If that is not an option, there is only one solution that will work: Mr. Surfacer—and that after a very good cleaning!
• Skin oil. I am extremely "fortunate" in this regard, as the skin on my hands tends to be very dry. I still clean the model thoroughly and wear nitrile gloves (latex is fine, too) when handling a model after cleaning for painting.
• Sanding dust. I used a microscope for most of my professional career. I barely understand how persistent this stuff is, and how hard it is to keep it off the surface. Can you say "static cling?"
• "Oil" on PE parts. Some PE is apparently stamp cut, rather than etched. Regardless, PE often has a surface contamination that can cause all sorts of problems, both with paint and CA.

To clean the surface:

There are four cleaners I know work without negative side effects. These can be used in sequence.

• Formula 409
• Windex with ammonia (or generic equivalent as long as it has ammonia)
• A solution of Simple Green and water, 1:1. This solution can be made with tap water, though if your tap water is hard (as it is in the US Midwest, or anywhere the bedrock is limestone) use distilled unless you have a water softener. Must be rinsed off.
• "Magic"—1 part Simple Green, 1 part water, 1 part Windex. Must be rinsed off.

Process

• For PE before construction, I soak in undiluted Simple Green for several hours (don't leave it overnight) or put it in my ultrasonic cleaner with Simple Green solution for half an hour. Simple Green will etch aluminum and some other alloys if left too long. Be careful.
• For resin before construction but after sanding, I soak in undiluted Simple Green for several hours (don't leave it overnight) or put it in my ultrasonic cleaner with Simple Green solution for half an hour. If you are suspicious of the resin, try wiping with odorless mineral spirits, then clean as described.
• Spray Formua 409 or Windex on the surface. Let sit several minutes. Wipe off.
• Spray Simple Green solution or Magic on the surface. Scrub with soft cloth or soft toothbrush. Rinse with distilled water.
• Spray or wipe with Formula 409, denatured or ethyl alcohol (Everclear), or 90% isopropyl alcohol. Do not use a lower concentration than 90%. This is critical if you have used Simple Green or Magic.
• Allow to dry in a dust free environment. I use a large, plastic flat cake container. All the final wipe solutions will evaporate leaving no residue and taking any remaining water with them. I have access to a forced air dehydrator. I put the model in that for an hour, wipe with Everclear, then put it in the cake container until ready to paint.

Once cleaned for painting, avoid touching the model with bare hands. If you do, wipe ASAP with alcohol or Formula 409. If you handle an already painted but fully cured portion, put Formula 409 on a lint free cloth or paper towel and quickly wipe the touched portion of the surface.

Curing:

Acrylic paints dry to touch quickly, but cure very slowly, glosses more so than flats. Future, for example, requires a full 48 hours at STPRH (Standard Temperature, Pressure, and Relative Humidity) to cure fully. Some gloss acrylics take almost as long. Either force cure each coat, or wait 24 hours before masking, minimum, longer if there are multiple coats. This is not the time to get impatient.

A note on gloss acrylics (and some gloss enamels): Gloss paints may contain a silicone additive that migrates to the surface during cure. This will interfere with subsequent coats of paint. Sometimes this can be fixed with a Formula 409 wipe, sometimes the surface should be wet sanded with very fine grit (essentially the polishing car builders do to get the "candy apple" finish.)

I don't think I've forgotten anything … :foof:/> but then, I've forgotten more about coatings than most people will ever know in their lifetime. <Sorry, a memory error occurred. Retry? Abort? Insert coffee?>

[toadwbg]

Good work there Triarius

I used Tamiya Acrylics on my Muzzleloader last year and they have held up pretty good too! The gun (normally with a good oil coat) was thouroughly de-greased with Purple Power and than I put down a base coat (primer) of duracoat, which is an Epoxy.

And yes, those are Panzer Colors

Edited December 3, 2013 by toadwbg

[B-17 guy]

For me, enamels all day. I've always used them, I'm comfortable with them. I dont have to go crazy with surface prep other than basic cleaning, I rarely use primer and usually it's silver undercoat for chipping purposes. This is a hobby, not a job, I'm not trying to spend hours doing surface prep, I just want to shoot paint and be done and not worry about tape lifting paint.

I dont care about the little bit of toxic vapor or whatever from enamels, I paint outside in my garage, I'm careful with it. I wear gloves, I'm not rolling around in it or huffing it.

[volzj]

Mind you, I said a good quality acrylics.

HA! Point taken. :D

[Mike C]

I have been debating this in my head for a while now. I am using Tamiya and Gunze acrylics, and I am very happy with them. My only issue is that a few bad experiences have forced me to use a lacquer primer (Surfacer 1200) underneath, no matter what the situation is. This is especially true if I will later be masking using Tamiya tape, or will be scrubbing the surface (to clean the oil wash for instance).

I once washed the built model using dishwashing detergent and hot water, let it dry, cleaned the surface really well using denatured alcohol, and then used Tamiya XF-20 Sky Grey as a primer. I then applied Gunze h305 Gunship gray. I then masked a few places and there; the paint apparently did not adhere well and came off to my horror! Waited for the paint to cure before each step. Ever since then, I always use Surface 1200. No problems.

I truly want to know this: Will Tamiya/Gunze acrylics be just as robust if sprayed (and cured) on an unprimed surface? My guess is that one would still be taking a risk doing this. I would still use a primer regardless, but I want to know the answer still. My environment variables (humidity, temperature) are pretty standard.

What prompted me is this:

MyDZ models

DZ models other build

DZ model new blog page

From what I can tell, he uses Tamiya paints and never uses primer. I am quite impressed by his results.

I find it quite interesting that some people seem to have so much paint lifting problem with Tamiya and/or Gunze Aqueous. I've always used these two paints, even mixing them up sometimes, and never had any problems. I never wash my built kit prior to painting. I hardly prime my kits either. When I do prime, I use Tamiya Fine Surface Primer (rattle can), or sometimes I'd spray whatever leftover paint that I have handy (could be Tamiya, Gunze Aqueous, or even LifeColor). I've masked with Tamiya tape, Blue Tac, even hardware store masking tape, no issues. But, I always leave the paint at least 10-12 hours, or overnight, before masking.

They wouldn't use different formulation for different region, would they?

[Triarius]

They wouldn't use different formulation for different region, would they?

Quite possible, if by "region" you mean a different country. Because many countries have many differing standards and laws, it is quite common for a product of the same brand name to have different compositions in different countries.

[melk]

First, thanks to all! I have reread the comments at least 5 times to absorb all the info. I'll post what I end up doing. I have some old models that will serve as test beds. I have to clear space and get my brain together to try it. I realize that there will be trial and error, error, error :)/>. So, keep those comments and web sites coming!

Thanks!

Mike

[Triarius]

First, thanks to all! I have reread the comments at least 5 times to absorb all the info. I'll post what I end up doing. I have some old models that will serve as test beds. I have to clear space and get my brain together to try it. I realize that there will be trial and error, error, error />. So, keep those comments and web sites coming!

Thanks!

Mike

You're welcome.

It isn't so much that master scale modelers are good at what they do, it's that they are wizards at fixing their mistakes. :rolleyes:/>

[Neo]

This is like asking Apple IOS or Google Android! both are good but im Android and Enamels only kinda guy!

[Triarius]

This is like asking Apple IOS or Google Android! both are good but im Android and Enamels only kinda guy!

De gustibus non disputandem est.

(There is no disputing a matter of taste.)

They all taste bad … :sarcasm_on:/>

[galileo1]

Loved enamels back in the day but have been an acrylic guy now for a few years. All I can say is that there was, at least for me, a significant learning curve (which I'm still trying to get comfortable with) when I made the switch. However, all in all, I'm glad I did it. Fumes were simply getting out of control with enamels and it came a point when I dreaded seating at the bench to paint. I still wear a mask when spraying with acrylics but I no longer have to put up with the smell of all of those solvents - specially when cleaning the aibrush.

If you decide to go with acrylics, I'd suggest you start with Tamiya or Gunze (Acqueous). They're the easiest paints to use, IMHO.

Rob

[Mike C]

If you decide to go with acrylics, I'd suggest you start with Tamiya or Gunze (Acqueous). They're the easiest paints to use, IMHO.

+1 Not just the easiest, but probably the best finish overall too (except for the metallics, which can be hit-and-miss).

[galileo1]

+1 :thumbsup:/> Not just the easiest, but probably the best finish overall too (except for the metallics, which can be hit-and-miss).

Agree completely. Great finishes indeed!

Rob

[SatelliteChaser]

i've been reading this and a few other threads on the topic, and it prompted a few thoughts and questions for those that may have the experience:

firstly, keep in mind I prefer sourcing paint locally as opposed to ordering online, so I haven't been able to find/try Gunze (although i'd like to), and Vallejo seems a bit finicky for my taste.

For me, MM Acryl is extremely convenient (easy to find, good color range, and FS colors). Tamiya (also easy to find for me) is ABSOLUTELY superior (no argument there!), but their limited colors and the idea of color matching/mixing kind of turns me away from buying any more than basic colors (black, white, etc). Would anyone else think the "convenience" of Acryl overrides some of their shortcomings?

As far as the adhesion issues with Acryl, i've seen it discussed that (aside from thorough cleaning and the necessary priming) adding a small amount of future to the primer and paint may aid adhesion. I've also considered priming with a Tamiya color under Acryl, but some have said they won't function well together. Can anyone with experience shed some light on these ideas? I clearly haven't had much of an opportunity to experiment with paint lately.

Really just curious about this last one: I've also noticed that a number of builders use acrylic paint, but may prime with non-acrylic primer (lacquer, etc). No question that it would help acrylic paint adhere, but it seems to me that it negates the advantages of using acrylic paint (ease of clean-up, less fumes). I choose not to spray enamels or lacquers due to the fumes, but if you're priming with one of these, why not just use them as the main coat?

Thanks for the expertise everyone, and happy building!

- joel

Edited December 6, 2013 by SatelliteChaser

[Triarius]

i've been reading this and a few other threads on the topic, and it prompted a few thoughts and questions for those that may have the experience:

firstly, keep in mind I prefer sourcing paint locally as opposed to ordering online, so I haven't been able to find/try Gunze (although i'd like to), and Vallejo seems a bit finicky for my taste.

For me, MM Acryl is extremely convenient (easy to find, good color range, and FS colors). Tamiya (also easy to find for me) is ABSOLUTELY superior (no argument there!), but their limited colors and the idea of color matching/mixing kind of turns me away from buying any more than basic colors (black, white, etc). Would anyone else think the "convenience" of Acryl overrides some of their shortcomings?

As far as the adhesion issues with Acryl, i've seen it discussed that (aside from thorough cleaning and the necessary priming) adding a small amount of future to the primer and paint may aid adhesion. I've also considered priming with a Tamiya color under Acryl, but some have said they won't function well together. Can anyone with experience shed some light on these ideas? I clearly haven't had much of an opportunity to experiment with paint lately.

Really just curious about this last one: I've also noticed that a number of builders use acrylic paint, but may prime with non-acrylic primer (lacquer, etc). No question that it would help acrylic paint adhere, but it seems to me that it negates the advantages of using acrylic paint (ease of clean-up, less fumes). I choose not to spray enamels or lacquers due to the fumes, but if you're priming with one of these, why not just use them as the main coat?

Thanks for the expertise everyone, and happy building!

- joel

Bear in mind, these are my opinions. I once worked in the coatings industry (R & D) and have experience with coating failure as a material scientist.

Answer to first question: No, in fact, no on steroids. Two reasons: You spend how many hours on a kit, just to encounter frustration, sometimes disastrous, in the final stage? No thanks. Second reason: There is no such thing as a "correct" color. Even if a military spec. paint is an exact match for the standard (HA!) when applied, it won't be a week later. All paints are shaded to a close match with a standard. How close depends on the person or persons doing the color matching. The accepted variation can be astonishing. I know, I used to do color matching and approve the color matching of others. So if you get close, it's almost certainly close enough. The longer the aircraft has been in service, the further the colors will be from spec. Olive drab is a perfect example. On weathered aircraft, it changes to anything from almost black to a greenish mustard yellow. I've even seen some that looked pinkish. This is well documented. There is a third reason, though minor: Recent Tamiya kits tell you what colors to mix to get the proper color (or close, as I said). Keep track of those (Tamiya may even have a reference available. I seem to recall that.) and it gets much easier.

Second question: Future is an excellent coating. Provided the Acryl doesn't coagulate when it is added, the addition will probably help. It will also increase the gloss of the finished coat. Don't add Future to the primer, or keep the amount low.

Second question, second part: Acryl doesn't play well with anything—the model, other paints, your airbrush, etc.

My answer to the third question is: Why prime? Are you priming to find surface defects? Well and good. Are you priming because you want or need to use a low quality paint like Testors Acryl? Well and good. Are you priming because you are too lazy to adequately clean the surface? Idiotic. (My opinion, mind you.) The only exception to this last is the use of Mr. Surfacer. Deadly stuff, but it can be extremely useful on problematic surfaces. Otherwise, this is just silly. It takes less than half an hour to adequately clean a kit surface using my methods. Some say that's too long. Hunh? I just spent forty hours (or more), considerable effort, and considerable expense building a beautiful, accurate model, and I won't spend another half hour on it? Get real, as we said back in the 1970s.

Cleaning a kit for painting is like cleaning a firearm. It's critical, and the first time it takes a long time. With practice and thought the time becomes a minor consideration. It's very much in the spirit of: "Sweat saves blood. Blood saves lives. Brains saves both." —Feldmarschal Erwin Rommel

[SatelliteChaser]

Bear in mind, these are my opinions. I once worked in the coatings industry (R & D) and have experience with coating failure as a material scientist.

Answer to first question: No, in fact, no on steroids. Two reasons: You spend how many hours on a kit, just to encounter frustration, sometimes disastrous, in the final stage? No thanks. Second reason: There is no such thing as a "correct" color. Even if a military spec. paint is an exact match for the standard (HA!) when applied, it won't be a week later. All paints are shaded to a close match with a standard. How close depends on the person or persons doing the color matching. The accepted variation can be astonishing. I know, I used to do color matching and approve the color matching of others. So if you get close, it's almost certainly close enough. The longer the aircraft has been in service, the further the colors will be from spec. Olive drab is a perfect example. On weathered aircraft, it changes to anything from almost black to a greenish mustard yellow. I've even seen some that looked pinkish. This is well documented. There is a third reason, though minor: Recent Tamiya kits tell you what colors to mix to get the proper color (or close, as I said). Keep track of those (Tamiya may even have a reference available. I seem to recall that.) and it gets much easier.

Second question: Future is an excellent coating. Provided the Acryl doesn't coagulate when it is added, the addition will probably help. It will also increase the gloss of the finished coat. Don't add Future to the primer, or keep the amount low.

Second question, second part: Acryl doesn't play well with anything—the model, other paints, your airbrush, etc.

My answer to the third question is: Why prime? Are you priming to find surface defects? Well and good. Are you priming because you want or need to use a low quality paint like Testors Acryl? Well and good. Are you priming because you are too lazy to adequately clean the surface? Idiotic. (My opinion, mind you.) The only exception to this last is the use of Mr. Surfacer. Deadly stuff, but it can be extremely useful on problematic surfaces. Otherwise, this is just silly. It takes less than half an hour to adequately clean a kit surface using my methods. Some say that's too long. Hunh? I just spent forty hours (or more), considerable effort, and considerable expense building a beautiful, accurate model, and I won't spend another half hour on it? Get real, as we said back in the 1970s.

Cleaning a kit for painting is like cleaning a firearm. It's critical, and the first time it takes a long time. With practice and thought the time becomes a minor consideration. It's very much in the spirit of: "Sweat saves blood. Blood saves lives. Brains saves both." —Feldmarschal Erwin Rommel

Thanks so much for the reply. A lot of interesting points, and it's good to know there's such expertise available on the boards.

Fair points about the accuracy of paint colors, and there are a lot of contributing factors to the way a specific color looks. As stated, I definitely agree that the quality of Tamiya paints far surpasses the Acryl. I've been looking into conversions for Tamiya paints to FS equivalents to make the change from the Model Master products, and will more than likely keep my own notes for mixing and matching as necessary. I also agree that with the amount of time spent constructing a kit, it's a shame to use inferior paints at the last stages (hence my motivation for changing). I was more or less ruminating on the idea that Model Masters paint selection is vast, readily available, and easily matched to many popular subjects , thus making it more convenient. (It's astonishing that Tamiya hasn't considered releasing FS-equivalent paints, considering they're widely preferred and others seem to feel the same way. I think there's definitely a market for it!) I will also keep an eye out for the Tamiya paint-mixing resources you mentioned.

Appreciate your comments and info on Future as well, just as I suspected, and has been suggested by others.

As far as priming there seems to be a few trains of thought, and everyone has their own techniques and process, and we could discuss that for a long, long time. That said, I didn't suggest that priming could take the place of cleaning/surface prep. Although I haven't been able to reach a stage on most of my builds where i'm slinging a lot of paint around (i've been working out techniques and process for construction after not having build since childhood), I posit that priming can be used for some of the reasons you mentioned (checking for surface irregularities) and more (giving a consistent undercoat for the base coats) and is just another step in the finishing process (which would actually lengthen said process!). From some of the other discussions, it especially seems that acrylic paint responds better to a primed surface, since it doesn't react with the plastic in the way enamels or lacquer will. Side note: I also just picked up my first jar of Mr. Surfacer, and can't wait to give it a shot, based on it's reputation!

Anyway, glad to be part of the discussion!

- joel