dnl42 Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 (edited) I'm building a USAAC Grumman Goose in Chrome Yellow and Light Blue. I've got the both metal and fabric Chrome Yellow on and am about to mask for Light Blue. I also need to figure out the cowling color. A Wheeler Field photo of this aircraft appears to clearly show the cowls are some other color than Chrome Yellow (wing and tail), Light Blue (fuselage), or flat black (lower fuselage). Any clues what that color might be? Edited November 6, 2015 by dnl42 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DonSS3 Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Are those two pics culled from the same photo? If not, it's impossible to make a comparison. My gut tells me the nacelle parts that we can see are blue and the cowlings themselves are probably yellow. Although, looking at the difference in the top and bottom cowl sections on engine #1 it makes me wonder if that one may be two colors... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dnl42 Posted November 7, 2015 Author Share Posted November 7, 2015 (edited) Yes. These are details from the same photo, which is at the "Wheeler Field Photo" link above. To me, it's clearly not Chrome Yellow, as you can see that on the tail and the wing. It's also clearly not Light Blue because of the difference compared to the engine nacelle. What are the possible colors? I believe I'll need to speculate in the end, but, again, I'm fairly confident the color isn't Chrome Yellow or Light Blue. Edited November 7, 2015 by dnl42 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chriss7606 Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 I had been following this topic with interest when something jogged my memory that may be useful. On the back cover of "Air Force Colors Volume 1 1926-1942" by Dana Bell there is a color photograph of a nearly identical painted and marked Goose. The cowls are the same blue as the rest of the fuselage and nacelles. From what I have read and seen in cases of black and white photograpy, determining exact colors can be difficult if not impossible. Depending on the film used, the tones can be deceptive. This is even touched on in the above book. I read an interesting article a while back where there were three photos of the nose art on I believe it was a B-24 Liberator in the Pacific Theater. Two were black and white photos using different film and it was obvious that depending on which you were using, the colors could be interpreted differently. The third photo was in color, showing what the colors actually were. I don't remember where it was that I read that, but it was interesting. I'm not entirely sure that the cowls in question are a different color. Based on a color photo of a nearly identical aircraft I would go with blue. If you feel that the photo does show a different color, then you could paint them almost any lighter color you wanted. Either way, I think critics would be hard pressed to prove you wrong. I hope this helped a little. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dnl42 Posted November 7, 2015 Author Share Posted November 7, 2015 I agree that I won't be able to get a statement like "The cowls are some-specific color" based on that photograph. I know I cannot compare two different photographs and make claims of colors between the two photographs. It can also be hard to understand colors in the same photo with different incidence angles and lighting. But, for the cowl and nacelle, we have the same lighting and the same incidence angles, which allows me to be confident that the colors are different. It may be that the cowl and nacelles are different blues. And, looking at the full photo, perhaps it's the nacelle that's not Light Blue, but I think that's less likely. Anyway, the easiest thing to do is paint both cowl and nacelle Light Blue. But, paint them both Light Blue, and I can't explain this photograph. Paint the cowl Some Other Color, and it's a fabrication. Oh well, maybe I'm just obsessing... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cubs2jets Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 When I look at the larger picture of the whole airplane, what strikes me is that the cowlings pretty well match the fuselage just forward of the windscreen. It is the nacelle behind the cowling that seems different. Suggestion: those are "nasty, oil slinging radials" on the bird. If the overall paint is a bit oxidized, it will have a more flat tone. A good crew chief wiping down the aircraft wipes the oil from the nacelles, leaving behind a shiny surface that reflects light differently from the other surfaces - even though it is the same color. Just a thought... C2j Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dana Bell Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 Nice photo! First, a word about the wing colors - the yellow was on the trailing two-thirds only. The Alclad leading edge was left unpainted on those early Gooses (Geese?) What was at that time called a "composite wing" caused problems with the application of the national insignia, which would have had to been painted in lacquer on the leading edge and dope on the trailing edge. The Army missed the simple solution of painting with enamels or using decals, instead requiring that the national insignia be painted on the metal portions of the wing only; even that got screwed up - every example I've seen had the insignia on the doped fabric portion only. (Later aircraft simply painted everything Yellow.) On your original question, I can't be much help. The 18th Pursuit Group's 6th, 19th, and 78th squadrons each used round squadron insignia, each had a Goose, and their squadron number ranges changed a few times as new squadrons were assigned. If you post this over at HyperScale, Dave Aiken or Burl Burlingame might see it - they both have done research on early AAC assignments to Hawaii. Good luck with the build! Cheers, Dana Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dnl42 Posted November 8, 2015 Author Share Posted November 8, 2015 First, a word about the wing colors - the yellow was on the trailing two-thirds only. The Alclad leading edge was left unpainted on those early Gooses (Geese?) What was at that time called a "composite wing" caused problems with the application of the national insignia, which would have had to been painted in lacquer on the leading edge and dope on the trailing edge. The Army missed the simple solution of painting with enamels or using decals, instead requiring that the national insignia be painted on the metal portions of the wing only; even that got screwed up - every example I've seen had the insignia on the doped fabric portion only. (Later aircraft simply painted everything Yellow.) ... Dana, Thanks for the info! That Wheeler Field picture is circa 1939-1941. Might that make it a later aircraft with an all yellow wing? BTW, I found this 1941 hawaii.gov photo at Morse Field, and it again suggests the cowling is another color. Does it perhaps share the same cowling color of the P-36's also shown in the unit photo? My Wheeler Field aircraft was attached to the 6th Pursuit Squadron. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dana Bell Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 Good news on the cowl color - it's almost certainly red. The 6th used red cowls in the early 1930s, and again in mid-War. I suspect that that's the color in your photo. The down side is the wing - it's almost certainly NMF and yellow. The unpainted metal looked like what we see in your photo, and the PR codes would have been replaced by 18P codes beginning in May 1940. It looks like a great subject, and I suspect you're about to deliver a great model - enjoy every minute! Cheers, Dana Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dnl42 Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 OK. Thanks for straightening out my conundrum on the cowl color. I'll have to see if I can rescue the wing without having to strip the entire model. Dang, and Chrome Yellow is such a hard color to apply. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DonSS3 Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 I'm glad Dana was able to straighten this conundrum out. I totally missed the link in your OP... Doh! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dnl42 Posted November 15, 2015 Author Share Posted November 15, 2015 Dana, I bit the bullet and am going to get the NMF/yellow wings and light blue fuselage right. For the wings, you wrote "the yellow was on the trailing two-thirds only" above. In this crop of the Wheeler Field photo, it looks like the leading edge, flaps, and inner panels are all NMF. Is that correct? I'm also trying to get that Light Blue color. FS35109 is clearly incorrect. Do you have any suggestions? I found a page earlier today that claimed a mix of Russian interior blue-green and blue. Sadly, neither my memory nor my browser history able or willing to get that page back. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DonSS3 Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 How close is "True Blue" to the USAAC Blue finish? Modelmaster does a nice True Blue (enamel,,not sure about acrylic). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dnl42 Posted November 16, 2015 Author Share Posted November 16, 2015 Hey Don, Don't know, but take a look at the back cover of Air Force Colors Vol 1 1926-1942. I think the difference is Army Light Blue v. ANA Light Blue. I want the former; the latter looks more like FS35109 to me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dri Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 FANTASTIC build, really great. So, I recently bought Squadron Products Encore Models Grumman JRF Goose. Haven't smeared gule on a model kit for about 25Â years, things happen when you get married. But now I am retired so have some time on my hands. Anyway, my kit has all of the blobs your kit had. One thing I can't locate in the kit are the air scoops for the port side of the engine cowlings, apparently need to search some more. I want to build an early version of the Goose and one thing I can see from the photos I have of an early Goose is that there is no spray rail, so that ain't going on to my model. Thanks again for all your build. Oh, PS, it seems your OC from LA LA land. Do you mean Orange County? Use to live in the SF bay area. Ken, Newport, Oregon email: siouxque1@gmail.com Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dnl42 Posted June 2, 2017 Author Share Posted June 2, 2017 Welcome aboard!  You certainly picked a tough kit to get back into building with! I shouldn't have added the spray rail...didn't pay enough attention to those photos. Also,  make sure you do the bare metal bright and shiny. Finally,  make sure the wing markings are only on the fabric portions--like the photo shows, not like the marking sheet. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dnl42 Posted June 2, 2017 Author Share Posted June 2, 2017 Here's the full Wheeler Field photo with its caption. There's a wealth of info here to help make a more accurate model. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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