Colours VVS WW II

[Massimo Tessitori]

For what it is worth. A colleague of mine has years ago found these FS matces against the U-2 at Tikkakoski aviation museum. How near matches, I do not know.

The plane is still mostly in original colours/paints - preserved not restored. It was captured already during the Winter War (Nov 30th, 1939 - March 13th, 1940), that means before AMT- paints were introduced. So most likely they are AII- nitro laquers.

Green: ~FS 24064

Blue: ~FS 24272

As you see they may have been yellowed "a bit" as the light blue FS match is also from the green FS series.

Interesting, Kari.

FS-24064 is nearly black. It could be an extreme darkening of AII green that is known to darken with age.

FS-24272... if it was AII blue, this means that turns to yellow with ageing. Who knows how it was six months after having been painted?

From http://www.foroaviones.com/foro/showthread.php?t=5246

tiff files with these colours at http://www.megaupload.com/?d=JYURK7VE

Very interesting link, Konstantin. There is also a photo of a piece of painted fabric linked on the Spanish forum.

Only, I don't know if RGB values can be easily and unequivocally converted into a paint. I would have preferred the chip photographed side by side with a page of a FS catalogue.

The comparison of Russian and Spanish light blues is interesting too. But it looks strange that the Russian paint has become yellowish under the coat of Spanish light blue. One could suspect that the initial color was greenish too. This would justify that the Spanish have repainted it over.

Who knows if the paint for Po-2 AKAN 371 was really utilized on Po-2s only?

Again: who knows what colors were utilized for mixed construction planes before AII green? Were Akan-363 and 370 for metal only?

Massimo

[bergr]

Hi Ross ;)

Regarding U-2 or Po-2 colours:

No 371 is underside blue used 1927-37. Nothing indicated for for upper green!

Cheers,

KL

Hello,

I would say AKAN 363 is the upper green paint. It´s used in the same time (1927-1937). Look also to the description, please.

i.t.d. (in cyrillic) may be i (and) toti drugoi ( these and other).

Cheers Ron

[dragonlance]

Who knows if the paint for Po-2 AKAN 371 was really utilized on Po-2s only?

Yes it was. Note the three letters behind Po-2 on the label - itd - it means etc. or and others.

Po-2 is just an example.

I see Ron beat me to it

Again: who knows what colors were utilized for mixed construction planes before AII green? Were Akan-363 and 370 for metal only?

All ready answered.

Topsides color progression:

protective color (khaki)

protective color (dark green) 3B

matt silver/aluminium

AE-9 overall (seems only on SB)

AII Green

AMT-4/-6

Undersides:

grey-blue

matt silver/aluminium

AII Blue

AMT-7

[bergr]

I looked just to Orlov/Vacl. again. On page 16 (30ìes) they mention a repair manual from 1940. There is AII Z and AII Al recommend for painting.

BTW: On page 19 is written, that in 1940 were add to the well known AII light grey, red, black, protectiv and aluminium colors named light blue, light green, tabacco, cream and orange! For use of light green and tobacco is recommend one to the other or with protectiv!

So there were AII light green and AII brown in 1940!

Edited November 24, 2009 by bergr

[klesnik]

Massimo,

late 1930's colors are differentiated both by time frame and aircraft type. Look at Polikarpov fighterss.

I-15 - 3B over gray-blue

I-15bis - 3B over silver or overall silver for late machines (produced simultaneously with I-153).

I-153 - overall silver, or AE-9 with silver, AII Green over silver and latest AII Green over AII Blue.

From Maslov: I-16 - from "protective color (dark green)" (my guess, 3B) over gray-blue (see Akan 371) (with black cowls on Zavod39 machines), from summer 1937 overall silver/aluminium (AE-8) , then dark green over silver (my guess, 3B), than in may 1940 AII Green over AII Blue.

Note the chips Klesnik provided. That's not AII blue.

Also, note that both AII Green and AMT-4 are termed "yellow greens", not "dark greens". Both should conform to 4BO specification.

Also note that the AII Blue and AMT-7 should only have a different shine, not shade.

Hi Dragonlance,

I would use following AKAN paints for planes made at different time-frames:

AKAN 363 "Zashtsitnii" green and AKAN 371 light gray-blue for ALL PLANES made before 1937.

Zashtsitnii" (=Protective) colour used at those times was some kind of green, not gray. Both Oil paints used for metal planes (TB-1, TB-3, R-6 etc) and nitro-cellulose paints used for fabric covered planes (I-5, I-15, I-16 Type 5) probably had the same or very similar colour.

BTW, almost identical colours were used on Mi-8 helicopters made in early 1970-ies!!!

I have no idea what is gray 3B (AKAN 370).

AKAN 318 AII Z "Protection Green" for I-15bis and I-16 Type 10 made in 1938. According to Maslov,lower surfaces should be silver AII Al. This paint is not confirmed by spanish wreck, but this could be an exeption.

AKAN 318 AII Z "Protection Green" and AKAN 342 AII G Light blue-gray for I-16s made between 1939-1941. This only because Akanihin says that AII G was introduced in 1939.

Silver AII Al and AE-9 for I-153 made from mid-1939 to mid-1940. AE-9 only for engine cowling and other metal details.

Also, note that both AII Green and AMT-4 are termed "yellow greens", not "dark greens". Both should conform to 4BO specification.

AII Z green doesn't have anything in common with 4BO. It was much darker and less yellow. AII Z was formulated in mid 1930-ies and 4BO was formulated in 1940.

On the other hand, AMT-4 and A-24m were designed as 4BO equivalents/analogues.

Check http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_17744.html

Cheers, B)

KL

[bergr]

Massimo,

Note the chips Klesnik provided. That's not AII blue.

Also, note that both AII Green and AMT-4 are termed "yellow greens", not "dark greens". Both should conform to 4BO specification.

Also note that the AII Blue and AMT-7 should only have a different shine, not shade.

Hi dragonlance,

Why can you be so sure?

At first: Orlov/Vacl. mention clearly 4BO as camouflage paint and show it at some patters.

http://rs28.rapidshare.com/files/246434284...__oe__.pdf.html

At second: I have 4BO, AMT4, AII Z and 3B from AKAN. If they are correct, then AIIZ is a bit greener and lighter than 3B( wich is very dark, nearly blackgreen RLM 70). AIIZ and 3B look a little bit like German RLM 70/71. That is no wonder. Germans and Russian worked together in the thirties. So the Russians bought some German fighters like Bf109 and He112 wich had a splinter camouflage in RLM 70/71 over RLM 65.

4BO is lighter than AII green. The wateracrylic paints from AKAN divide the pigments. AII Z has green and light brown, AMT4 has green and yellow and 4BO green and olive pigments.

Sorry for my bad English but I hope you can understand. B)

Cheers Ron

[dragonlance]

I looked just to Orlov/Vacl. again. On page 16 (30ìes) they mention a repair manual from 1940. There is AII Z and AII Al recommend for painting.

BTW: On page 19 is written, that in 1940 were add to the well known AII light grey, red, black, protectiv and aluminium colors named light blue, light green, tabacco, cream and orange! For use of light green and tobacco is recommend one to the other or with protectiv!

So there were AII light green and AII brown in 1940!

Those colors were used for extensive tests in 1940.

But on May25th 1940 only AII Green and AII Blue were specified for use.

Edit

Bergr, drop me your mail adress on PM

Edited November 24, 2009 by dragonlance

[dragonlance]

At first: Orlov/Vacl. mention clearly 4BO as camouflage paint and show it at some patters.

http://rs28.rapidshare.com/files/246434284...__oe__.pdf.html

If you look at profiles on page 31 of that PDF, you can see that I-16's are numbered: pattern 12, 14, 08 and 11 etc. Also I-153's and the SB.

Edited November 24, 2009 by dragonlance

[Dmitriy Linevitch]

Perhaps the whole story of the green-green and green-brown kamo began from the schoolbook Burche, as early explorers did not bother to search for deeper truths. At the moment, such camo present only in his book, but there is no evidence confirming their existence in reality. On the other hand, a whole layer soviet air history relating to navy aviation practically not been studied, and Burche himself served in the Navy.

It should be clarified, there was a special departmental literature destined for the army, navy and vvs, printed under a special heading "Commander's Library", Burche books just came out in this series of departmental literature.

Edited November 25, 2009 by Dmitriy Linevitch

[Massimo Tessitori]

late 1930's colors are differentiated both by time frame and aircraft type. Look at Polikarpov fighterss.

I-15 - 3B over gray-blue

I-15bis - 3B over silver or overall silver for late machines (produced simultaneously with I-153).

I-153 - overall silver, or AE-9 with silver, AII Green over silver and latest AII Green over AII Blue.

Hi Dragonlance,

to tell the truth, I had a look to many photos of I-15bis and its undersurfaces don't look silver to me. They look glossy finished, but not metallic.

For what you know, 3B was glossy or matt?

AII Z green doesn't have anything in common with 4BO. It was much darker and less yellow. AII Z was formulated in mid 1930-ies and 4BO was formulated in 1940.

On the other hand, AMT-4 and A-24m were designed as 4BO equivalents/analogues.

Again: from photos of early MiG-3s, I think that AII green was similar oto A-19f when new, and then darkened quickly while the other one faded to a lighter shade.

QUOTE (bergr @ Nov 24 2009, 07:57 PM)

I looked just to Orlov/Vacl. again. On page 16 (30ìes) they mention a repair manual from 1940. There is AII Z and AII Al recommend for painting.

BTW: On page 19 is written, that in 1940 were add to the well known AII light grey, red, black, protectiv and aluminium colors named light blue, light green, tabacco, cream and orange! For use of light green and tobacco is recommend one to the other or with protectiv!

So there were AII light green and AII brown in 1940!

Those colors were used for extensive tests in 1940.

But on May25th 1940 only AII Green and AII Blue were specified for use.

I have thought that those tobacco, light breen and cream were those utilized on the experimental schemes of 1940, but in the color schemes it seems to call the colors in different way, so I am not sure that Orlov meant the same colors.

http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=668.0

Who can give more highlights on this?

Massimo

[Dmitriy Linevitch]

I have thought that those tobacco, light breen and cream were those utilized on the experimental schemes of 1940, but in the color schemes it seems to call the colors in different way, so I am not sure that Orlov meant the same colors.

http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=668.0

Who can give more highlights on this?

Massimo

It seemed to me that you missed these chips. I remember that you do not read in ussian and can not know what all russian community know. Despite the fact that these chips at Akanihin's catalog go under cars/armor, in fact, these are the experimental aircraft enamels, the irony in the fact that they were used in serial production for some reason on tanks/cars instead of planes. Maybe Burche has same influence to this process, who knows. He's participated in the tests with these camouflage colors.

As Akanihin says, these chips absolutely accurate.

Edited November 27, 2009 by Dmitriy Linevitch

[Massimo Tessitori]

It seemed to me that you missed these chips. I remember that you do not read in ussian and can not know what all russian community know. Despite the fact that these chips at Akanihin's catalog go under cars/armor, in fact, these are the experimental aircraft enamels, the irony in the fact that they were used in serial production for some reason on tanks/cars instead of planes. Maybe Burche has same influence to this process, who knows. He's participated in the tests with these camouflage colors.

As Akanihin says, these chips absolutely accurate.

Hi Dmitriy,

thank you very much. This helps very much.

I see that the green on the left is called 24 Ng; is this another name for 4BO or they were different paints?

Again: are the colors shown here the same tobacco, cream and light green written on the booklet of Orlov and Vaklamov?

Massimo

[bergr]

Hi Dmitriy,

thank you very much. This helps very much.

I see that the green on the left is called 24 Ng; is this another name for 4BO or they were different paints?

Again: are the colors shown here the same tobacco, cream and light green written on the booklet of Orlov and Vaklamov?

Massimo

Hi Massimo,

I dont think 24ng is same like 4BO. I have compared these paints both from AKAN. 4BO is called darkgreen and 24ng browngreen.

Orlov has written that tabacco,cream, and light green are AII paints, thats why they couldnt be oil paints. The names of 24ng,23 pi and so on are different too.

Look at the last three lines in mid and following lines.

Here is the source (Moskau 1941 Nr.9)

Cheers Ron

Edited November 27, 2009 by bergr

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Massimo,

I dont think 24ng is same like 4BO. I have compared these paints both from AKAN. 4BO is called darkgreen and 24ng browngreen.

Orlov has written that tabacco,cream, and light green are AII paints, thats why they couldnt be oil paints. The names of 24ng,23 pi and so on are different too

Hi Ron,

thank you very much for your suggestions. So, nothing is known on these AII paints.

I've updted the page. I have enclosed something on Spanish colors (supposing that they were really Spanish and not Russian) and some other things.

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/colors.html

By the way, I think that Spanish utilized some sort of brown too. Where could I find more on colors of Republicans during the Civil War?

I think that I'll split this table in separate files, to add some comments as photos, links or color profiles under each file.

I have deducted the shade of AE-15 fron the photo of a piece of SB, but I don't know anything on this color if not that was utilized on SB.

By the way, I remember to have seen a shade of cherry red or purple between Akan chips somewhere. Who knows what was the use of that paint, please?

Massimo

[bergr]

By the way, I think that Spanish utilized some sort of brown too. Where could I find more on colors of Republicans during the Civil War?

I think that I'll split this table in separate files, to add some comments as photos, links or color profiles under each file.

I have deducted the shade of AE-15 fron the photo of a piece of SB, but I don't know anything on this color if not that was utilized on SB.

By the way, I remember to have seen a shade of cherry red or purple between Akan chips somewhere. Who knows what was the use of that paint, please?

Massimo

Hi Massimo,

I dont know wich color you mean.

Can you give the AKAN number to us?

Here is a colortable http://www.plasticmodel.ru/?page=paints&am...0850901749caa5e .

BTW: Nr 87037 and 87038 are Spanish Khaki paints used since 1930èr to our time.

Cheers Ron

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Massimo,

I dont know wich color you mean.

Can you give the AKAN number to us?

Here is a colortable http://www.plasticmodel.ru/?page=paints&am...0850901749caa5e .

BTW: Nr 87037 and 87038 are Spanish Khaki paints used since 1930èr to our time.

Cheers Ron

Hi Ron,

I had a look at the page with an automatic translator, but the first color is for uniforms, and the second for ground equipment, so I don't know if it is good for planes too. Thank you all the same for the suggestion.

By the way, does anyone know if there is any reference to the existence of AE-15 independant of EP?

Massimo

Edited November 29, 2009 by Massimo Tessitori

[John Thompson]

This may be of interest - photos of VVS aircraft interior colours, by Alexsey Shtani, from the Dishmodels.ru site:

http://www.dishmodels.ru/wshow.htm?p=416

John

[Massimo Tessitori]

This may be of interest - photos of VVS aircraft interior colours, by Alexsey Shtani, from the Dishmodels.ru site:

http://www.dishmodels.ru/wshow.htm?p=416

John

Hi John,

thank you for sharing this interesting link.

It would be good a closer and immediate connection between each image and the text.

Massimo

[John Thompson]

AKAN 363 "Zashtsitnii" green and AKAN 371 light gray-blue for ALL PLANES made before 1937.

Zashtsitnii" (=Protective) colour used at those times was some kind of green, not gray. Both Oil paints used for metal planes (TB-1, TB-3, R-6 etc) and nitro-cellulose paints used for fabric covered planes (I-5, I-15, I-16 Type 5) probably had the same or very similar colour.

KL

First, let me say that my 10-year-old monitor is lacking any higher brightness adjustment - all the really dark greens look like black, for example, so my ability to interpret colour samples on my screen is not very good. I'd like to build a reasonably accurate model of an I-16 type 5. Before reading the very detailed and interesting information in this thread, I would have assumed that such an aircraft would have been painted AII Z green and AII blue. Now I learn that the undersides of a type 5 could have been painted a colour with no "official" name which is known only from the AKAN paint product line as AKAN 371, which the label describes as being intended for "U(Po)2, etc.". This is referred to as gray-blue, and yet it seems to have a very green hue, almost like RAF Sky. Kari Lumppio refers in his post to a Po-2 underside colour which was "FS'd" as approximately FS24272 (also close to RAF Sky). This is a very green colour indeed, with very little gray and almost no blue (to my eye, at least). My questions are these:

(1) Where did Mr. Akanihin get the information which resulted in the production of his colour 371?

(2) Could it have been the same Po-2 relic as was measured by Kari Lumppio's friend?

(3) How do we know that this colour was applied to the I-16?

(4) Am I being really dumb in expecting that anyone except Mr. Akanihin himself can answer these questions?

Here's the I-16 I'd like to build - red cowling, I think, or might this be the same colour variation in the uppersurface green between metal and wood surfaces as is seen on the MiG-3?

Best regards to all;

John

Edited December 6, 2009 by John Thompson

[klesnik]

Hi John,

Two paint chips I posted on previously at http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index....t&p=1855050 should work for your I-16 Type 5.

It looks that all evidence coming from Finland (Karri Lumppio), from Russia (AKAN) and from Spain confirm dark green-gray colour for upper surfaces and light blue-gray for undersurfaces.

Just don't use lime green and cyan.

[Massimo Tessitori]

Before reading the very detailed and interesting information in this thread, I would have assumed that such an aircraft would have been painted AII Z green and AII blue. Now I learn that the undersides of a type 5 could have been painted a colour with no "official" name which is known only from the AKAN paint product line as AKAN 371, which the label describes as being intended for "U(Po)2, etc.". This is referred to as gray-blue, and yet it seems to have a very green hue, almost like RAF Sky. Kari Lumppio refers in his post to a Po-2 underside colour which was "FS'd" as approximately FS24272 (also close to RAF Sky). This is a very green colour indeed, with very little gray and almost no blue (to my eye, at least).

Hi John,

the photo was taken in 1941, and shows a neat difference between the shade of metal parts as the cowling and the wooden part, that is nearly all the plane. I's the same thing visible on early MiG-3s.

Independantly from the year of building, I suppose that the plane was repainted; the cowling (and perhaps some other metal parts) with A-19f, the remaining part with AII green that looks darker, at least when old.

I don't know about undersurfaces. I supose that the original grey-blue was a bit less yellowish than the aged paint found on Po-2; however, lacking of better informations, I suppose that AKAN are reasonably accurate.

Just don't use lime green and cyan.

Hi Konstantin,

this is right, but it's a bit not nice to show the photo of the work of another modeler as an example of a wrong way.

Massimo

[Dmitriy Linevitch]

(1) Where did Mr. Akanihin get the information which resulted in the production of his colour 371?

(2) Could it have been the same Po-2 relic as was measured by Kari Lumppio's friend?

(3) How do we know that this colour was applied to the I-16?

(4) Am I being really dumb in expecting that anyone except Mr. Akanihin himself can answer these questions?

I would venture to answer for Akanihina, unfortunately he is not speaking by other languages besides the russian.

You are not the first person who asks such questions.

I assumed that you do not read Russian, so do not give references, here some people who can confirm my words.

Mr. Akanihin known russian researcher for paint materials, as well as the owner of the company for the production of model paints. It closely cooperates with many of Russia's historians, and especially to Mr. Orloff, author of the most comprehensive and fundamental study of colors of military aircraft of the USSR. The preparation of recipes of model paints, mr Akanihin uses such sources: the State standard of Russia's paints, a number of archival documents containing the original paint chips, as well as a huge collection of fragments of various aircraft with preserved colors.

lack of official brand at paint chip indicates that the sample obtained from the wreckage.

If you do not go into details, the historical analysis of documents and photos can make such a conclusion, early-16 were blue-green, and black cowling, and a specific brand of paint turns on the fact, the other simply did not exist.

But surely this issue is not closed with absolute certainty, as there is no debris with paint from the I-16 type 5

Edited December 7, 2009 by Dmitriy Linevitch

[bergr]

Hello Dmitriy,

can you look at this site http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewto..._start_120.html please at the last post and tell me if I had right translate?

[John Thompson]

Thanks for the replies, Konstantin, Massimo, and Dmitriy! I was hoping someone would support my red cowling theory, since the shade of the paint on the cowling matches that of the red star on the fuselage, but I guess that was too much to hope for. Cheers!

John

[Dmitriy Linevitch]

Hello Dmitriy, can you look at this site http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewto..._start_120.html please at the last post and tell me if I had right translate?

Yes, but not all. Immediately after that, started program for testing experimental camouflages. The text does not refer to the use of additional colors on the production plants, only that there is documentary proof of execution of NCAP

Thanks for the replies, Konstantin, Massimo, and Dmitriy! I was hoping someone would support my red cowling theory, since the shade of the paint on the cowling matches that of the red star on the fuselage, but I guess that was too much to hope for. Cheers! John

There is no doc's or memoirs to suggest that the army or navy regiments had at least one I-16 with a red cowling Edited December 8, 2009 by Dmitriy Linevitch