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Peter Pommes

Colours VVS WW II

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Hi

Can anyone provide me with information how I can mix VVS colours of WW II with acrylics like Tamiya or Gunze?

I'm offering all my WhiteEnsign colours in exchange!!

The colours look nice but I just can't get used to the smell of enamel colours...

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Peter,

The closest thing I know to what you are looking for is here, but that chart is hit or miss for acrylics.

Regards,

Murph

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Unless it's remained a *very* well kept secret, I'm not aware of anything equivalent to the FS595 or BS 381c color standard for the USSR. To be sure, there were 'standard' colors that different production factories used, but that was more a function of what they had at hand and what paint factory it came from, rather than any kind of uniform standard from everything I've seen and read.

The upshot is, unless you've got a color photo (unheard of in the USSR in WWII), you could go with about any color your eye likes and it'd be awfully hard for anyone to prove it's wrong.

J

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Hi

Can anyone provide me with information how I can mix VVS colours of WW II with acrylics like Tamiya or Gunze?

I'm offering all my WhiteEnsign colours in exchange!!

The colours look nice but I just can't get used to the smell of enamel colours...

This will get you started...make sure your monitor is calibrated correctly, so that your colors are right.

http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/colour-samples.php

This will also help, and give you some idea of the problems you're faced with.

http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/NKAP/il2/il2-3colour.htm

HTH!

Cheers,

Alex

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Hi Peter!

I think this page has what you´re looking for...

Link

Cheers!

Emil

EDIT: References are mostly to polly scale acrylics, which are smell free AFAIK ;-) I hope this is ok!

Edited by nr1forme

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Did I understand correctly that you are getting rid of your WEM colors? If so, drop me a PM, I might be interested in buying them from you.

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Hi

Can anyone provide me with information how I can mix VVS colours of WW II with acrylics like Tamiya or Gunze?

I'm offering all my WhiteEnsign colours in exchange!!

The colours look nice but I just can't get used to the smell of enamel colours...

If you want VVS colors in acrylic, have you checked out Polly Scale? They have a number of Soviet WWII and post-war colors in their line. While, I understand, in some cases these may not be as "accurate" as WEM, I've used them on many projects with great satisfaction. You don't have to do any mixing (other than, perhaps, to darken or lighten some of them) and there are no nasty fumes.

:unsure:

Old Blind Dog

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One of the best kept secrets in slogging through the morass of conflicting information on VVS colors is a modest book published by Iliad Design called Colours of the Falcons. Basically, the authors found, reprinted and translated the Soviet tech orders that were changed at various times during the war, showing us the camo schemes for each a/c type, and the colors as they went from the early green-and-black for fighters to the blue-gray hues of the late war. And then there are the camo schemes for the ground attack machines like the Sturmovich.

FS matches are provided where they are close, but otherwise there are good descriptions of the colors and how they were applied. The book tells us that the tech orders allow for aircraft to be brush painted all over if no spray equipment is available, and specifically refers to the tractor paint used on green-and-black schemes.

The book is softbound, 56 pages, and only costs about $16. I wouldn't trade mine for ten times that. Go to www.iliad-design.com and ask about this book.

And look at their cool paint chips and decals while your at it. I'm glad I found this modest Canadian firm. Owner Bob Migliardi is a talented individual who has come up with sets of paint chips, and the theatres of war they went with, and the aircraft camo profiles that show where the colors go. And there's another for US trainers, one for the Fleet Air Arm, one for the Luftwaffe in the desert, and on and on. They are sold punched for a three-ring binder so you can pick and choose which ones fit your needs, and they are reasonably priced.

TOM

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One of the best kept secrets in slogging through the morass of conflicting information on VVS colors is a modest book published by Iliad Design called Colours of the Falcons. ....

FS matches are provided where they are close, but otherwise there are good descriptions of the colors and how they were applied. ...

unfortunately not. The Fs numbers do not match the album nakrasok of 1948.

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unfortunately not. The Fs numbers do not match the album nakrasok of 1948.

I keep hearing about this legendary Albom Nakrasok, which begins to seem like the Holy Grail of VVS modelbuilding! It would be good if someone who has a copy could have the colour chips which the Albom included published as a VVS colour guide, or even just scan and post the chips on the Internet. Ideally, because of variations in colour rendering from one scanner and monitor to another, the scans should include easily-available reference chips within each image; perhaps closest FS595 match? The reference chip doesn't have to be an exact match, but needs to be visible for comparison with the "real thing".

(If someone has a copy of the Albom, would you like to sell it to me? If it was intended as a standard for the Russian paint-manufacturing industry when published in 1948, you would think that many copies must have been printed, and many could still survive.)

English-language publication of the series of articles by Vakhlamov and Orlov, published in M-Hobby and Modelist Konstruktor magazines, would also be welcome. Otherwise, all that is available us Western enthusiasts is Erik Pilawskii's "Soviet Air Force Fighter Colours 1941 - 1945", which is criticized mercilessly on Russian forums, and Jiri Hornat's "Colors of the Falcons", which you now say is also inaccurate. We are obviously at a disadvantage...

John

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Hi John,

This is how Holy Grail looks:

65963202.jpg

Title:

Альбом накрасок Продукции заводов главкраски МХП СССР

Approximate translation:

Album of paints made by the factories of the Directorate of paints of the Ministry of Chemical Industry of SSSR

Another Google search provides some description:

Альбом накрасок. Образцы накрасок, характеристика красок, основные

физико-малярные показатели, применение красок. М., Госхимиздат 1948. 74 с. (Главкраска МХП СССР). 1000 экз. 280 р. в пер.

Album of paints. Paint samples, characteristics, basic physical and painting indices, use of paints. State chemical publishing 1948. 74 pages (?), (Directorate of paints of MCI SSSR) published in 1000 examples. 280 words in per(intro?)

Photo above from http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewto...;&start=280

Posted by Aleksandr Akanikin aka AKAN. Aleksandr explains that he has access to one copy in a library. It’s a reference book, can’t be taken out, library scanner is A4 format and book is much larger. All photos posted by AKAN are taken with his cell.

IMHO from the information above:

  • It is an important source published by officials, probably for internal use
  • It is rather short – 74 pages!
  • 1000 books printed is a significant number. Examples can be found in archives and libraries in Russia

E. Pilawskii does mention this source in his book. He refers to it as a postwar “bureaucratic exercise†and associates it with NKVD. This misinterpretation (or misunderstanding) is one of the reasons why he is criticized mercilessly on Russian forums.

Scans of the Albom are not available, but I am sure that they will appear eventually.

In meantime, you may find everything you need to know about VVS paints at scalemodels.ru forum. It’s more like a detective work, but it’s also more interesting. It would be too easy to have all answers at one place.

Cheers,

KL

Edited by klesnik

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(If someone has a copy of the Albom, would you like to sell it to me? If it was intended as a standard for the Russian paint-manufacturing industry when published in 1948, you would think that many copies must have been printed, and many could still survive.)

English-language publication of the series of articles by Vakhlamov and Orlov, published in M-Hobby and Modelist Konstruktor magazines, would also be welcome. Otherwise, all that is available us Western enthusiasts is Erik Pilawskii's "Soviet Air Force Fighter Colours 1941 - 1945", which is criticized mercilessly on Russian forums, and Jiri Hornat's "Colors of the Falcons", which you now say is also inaccurate. We are obviously at a disadvantage...

John

Afaik only 2 copies survived, 1 in private posession (in Finland?) and another in S.t Petersburg's archive which can only be studied there and unfortunately cann't be taken away for making good pictures and scans (this is from Mr.Akanikhin, creator of AKAN paints who did quite an extensive research on VVS coloration).

I wouldn't say "Colors of Falcons" is inaccurate just incomplete and superficial at places. When Jiri Hornat published his work in Czechoslovak aviation magazine Letectvi+Kosmonautika (Aviation&Space) in late 1989 it was truly ground-breaking information made available further west of Soviet Union.

Pilawskii clearly never studied "Albom" and cooperated with other researchers in Russia, Finland, Czech Republic or elsewhere. It's so unfortunate that his "bible" continues to be followed so blindly. You can notice it almost daily on Hyperscale, Modeling Maddness, here ...

Some Russians don't consider Vakhlamov/Orlov work as a "bible" or "ultimate" either with which I agree.

Apparently there is still much research to be done. But there are some things we DO KNOW, and many of them are NOT what Pilawskii wants us to believe.

Cheers,

Mario

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Hi Mario,

But there are some things we DO KNOW, and many of them are NOT what Pilawskii wants us to believe.

Can you give us a quick overview of what we do know now that didn't match Pilawskii informations.

Thanks.

Jean

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No quick answer here. List of errors and mistakes in his book is endless.

I am not a modeler - I am more interested in history - so for me the funniest error is in “Introduction to Soviet Aircraft of the Great Patriotic War†(page 27, second paragraph). Erik Pilawskii mentions three famous soviet aircraft engine designers:

Viktor Klimov

Artem Mikulin and

Aleksandr Shvedsov

FYI Their correct names are:

Vladimir Klimov

Aleksander Mikulin and

Arkadiy Shvedsov

Their Initials are behind the official names of famous Soviet engines (VK-105, AM-35, ASh-62 etc.).

Actually after this error, I gave up and skipped the rest of the book. It's too much, even from Edward Pillawskii.

If you try to find names Burche or Chebotarevski in this book, you woun't find them. Burche happened to be the author of disruptive camouflage schemes and Chebotarevski formulated all the paints. Instead you will find one "Bukhanova" (a female paint shop worker who supposedly invented "loops").

Would you rely on information in this book?

Happy modeling,

KL

Edited by klesnik

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Thanks, Mario and Konstantin, for your replies on the subject of the Albom Nakrasok; it sounds like a more rare volume than I thought. Yes, I know about the forum threads about VVS colours on Scalemodels.ru - in fact, I already have at least three of them bookmarked! The subject of VVS camouflage is very challenging to someone who can only read Russian through the help of Babel Fish or Google translation! Some very helpful information I have found has been in a couple of old Usenet posts on rec.models.scale by Kari Lumppio, where he presents approximate FS595 numbers for green paint from the upper surfaces of MiG-3 relics in Finland, and also the underside blue used on the MiG-3 and LaGG-3.

Two colours which I would very much like to identify accurately are AMT-11 and AMT-12. I have found at least 5 references which give FS595 approximations, and all 5 of them are slightly (or even a lot) different. If the Akan paints are accurately matched to the samples in the Albom, it would be interesting to obtain these paints, but again - not available outside Russia!

Hi Jean - totally off topic, but I'm interested to see that you live in Sherbrooke! I visited there many times while working for a previous employer, and have happy memories of how well I was treated there. Salut aux copains!

John

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Hi Mario,

Can you give us a quick overview of what we do know now that didn't match Pilawskii informations.

Thanks.

Jean

Hi Jean,

To make it really worthwhile I would have to post the translated 32-pages 2008 Orlov/Vakhlamov article at least which I cann't do at this time.

One of the "do knows" is that VVS DID have camo standards, colors and paints standards, formulas and etalons, all governed by documented orders, instructions and manuals. Contrary to the (unfortunately) continued popular belief in the West there was no chaos in this matter per se.

Another example (often repeated by myself) is non-existence of colors such as "AII Brown" and "AII Dark Green" in VVS coloration nomenclature. And yet Pilawskii presents them as a fact and people continue to paint their Il-2 Shturmoviks in AII Brown and Green including single-seaters!

Pilawskii's "Tractor Green" it's another highly popular laughable matter on Russian forums.

Mario

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If the Akan paints are accurately matched to the samples in the Albom, it would be interesting to obtain these paints, but again - not available outside Russia!

John

John,

You can get AKAN paints by mail-order from the Club-TM model shop in Moscow.

I have only ever visited the place - so I can't vouch for their overseas mail order service - but they seem very switched on and I would not be worried about using them.

During my visit in August I picked up a new set of AKAN paints - they are acryllic and in a set of six specifically for the Sukhoi Flanker.

There were other six-pack sets on sale - and AKAN enamels were also available in individual jars.

Ken

PS - I haven't tried my Flanker paint set yet...

Edited by Flankerman

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John,

You can get AKAN paints by mail-order from the Club-TM model shop in Moscow.

I have only ever visited the place - so I can't vouch for their overseas mail order service - but they seem very switched on and I would not be worried about using them.

During my visit in August I picked up a new set of AKAN paints - they are acryllic and in a set of six specifically for the Sukhoi Flanker.

There were other six-pack sets on sale - and AKAN enamels were also available in individual jars.

Ken

PS - I haven't tried my Flanker paint set yet...

Thanks, Ken. I checked their site, but it doesn't seem to respond well to Babel Fish translation. For what it's worth, though, the main problem with ordering online from most Russian sites is the difficult payment arrangements that need to be made, since it seems very few of them can accept credit cards. The only exception I've found is Aviapress who are registered with CCNow - I've ordered from them perhaps 3 times in the past, although it was a huge hassle getting delivery most of the time, and I haven't ordered anything in the past couple of years, since their prices went right through the roof. It's disappointing - I have a list of wanted items: Akan paints; Elf wheels; Hobby Plus paint masks; probably a few other things. I guess here in the west, interest in modelling VVS aircraft of any era is still too exotic a taste to make it worthwhile for anyone to export/import these items, with the possible exception of Linden Hill in the US. I did hear a rumour that ICM was considering distribution of Akan paints, but so far, I've seen no proof of that.

John

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I guess here in the west, interest in modelling VVS aircraft of any era is still too exotic a taste to make it worthwhile for anyone to export/import these items, with the possible exception of Linden Hill in the US.

John:

I'm working on this right now, at least for the acrylic range. If I'm not mistaken, AKAN paints are actually produced to order in Finland, by this company:

http://www.tikkurila.com

I've just finished translating their VVS paint catalogue into English, so now at least know what's worth ordering in bulk and what isn't...

Regards,

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Hi guys,

this a very interesting discussion.

The matter of Soviet colors in the GPW is fascinating.

I hope russian modellers who had read E.P. work had not got confused with the colors from the VVS website.

From what I've gathered on Scalemodels.ru lot of bad blood comes from what's seen on the VVS website,

even if E.P. had written somewhere on his website that he could not guarantee it's an exact color representation.

Albom Nakrasok:

Is that a useful book?

It's not even cited as reference (литература) in Vakhlamov and Orlov!!

@ John Thompson

I had bought a book from Viktor kulikov who lives in Moscow.

He told me that he could buy me modelling things from Russia and he did post on Hyperscale to this effect.

He's very reliable. I bought Red Stars 4 from him and I received it within two weeks.

Might be a good idea to check with him:

viktor_kulikov@mail.ru

As for Sherbrooke, it's a marvelous city. We're here since 1976 and we love the town and the Townships.

If you happen to come near here drop me a line.

@ Sakai

Thanks for the infos. That was was I had gathered so far.

There's also the AMT-11 and 12 "real" colors.

As for Tractor green, E.P. has corrected it's name as Factory green. Might be less laughable!

@ Klesnik

To say the least you didn't give Mr.Pilaskii a little slack ;-)

He may be bad at deciphering russian language but he could also a genius of photographic interpretation and paint chemistery.

Cheers,

Jean

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Hi guys,

this a very interesting discussion.

The matter of Soviet colors in the GPW is fascinating.

I hope russian modellers who had read E.P. work had not got confused with the colors from the VVS website.

From what I've gathered on Scalemodels.ru lot of bad blood comes from what's seen on the VVS website,

even if E.P. had written somewhere on his website that he could not guarantee it's an exact color representation.

Albom Nakrasok:

Is that a useful book?

It's not even cited as reference (литература) in Vakhlamov and Orlov!!

@ John Thompson

I had bought a book from Viktor kulikov who lives in Moscow.

He told me that he could buy me modelling things from Russia and he did post on Hyperscale to this effect.

He's very reliable. I bought Red Stars 4 from him and I received it within two weeks.

Might be a good idea to check with him:

viktor_kulikov@mail.ru

As for Sherbrooke, it's a marvelous city. We're here since 1976 and we love the town and the Townships.

If you happen to come near here drop me a line.

@ Sakai

Thanks for the infos. That was was I had gathered so far.

There's also the AMT-11 and 12 "real" colors.

As for Tractor green, E.P. has corrected it's name as Factory green. Might be less laughable!

@ Klesnik

To say the least you didn't give Mr.Pilaskii a little slack ;-)

He may be bad at deciphering russian language but he could also a genius of photographic interpretation and paint chemistery.

Cheers,

Jean

Jean,

1. Russian modelers did not get confused, it was not only his "wild" representation of specific shades they criticized -which he blamed on printing process (!?)-but also his certain inscriptions in cyrillics (not making sense and/or stating non-existent places in Russia), absence of supporting documentation for certain claims and above all unwillingness to engage in a debate (and admit mistake)

2. Albom Nakrasok

well, if it contains samples of the most of standard VVS camo paints with their description etc. how useful can it be, what do you think?

If Vakhlamov/Orlov don't show it in their index it doesn't mean much since focus of their work is not really on in-depth research of the correct shades and possible FS equivalents etc. They deal with VVS camo&marking system as whole, in the perspective of circumstances, orders, nomenclature, links between governments, VVS headquarters and relevant industries (did you read it in it's entirety?)

3. With all due respect you seem to be confused by Tractor Green and Factory Green, Pilawskii always maintained they were two different colors, Factory Green as probable equivalent to AII Green exclusively used by Zavod 1 in Moscow in Mig-3 production but what the Russians are laughing at is his Tractor Green supposedly used on Il-2 production in Chelyabinsk zavod since there is no ground for such a claim

4. I think that Pilawskii's insufficient command of Russian is quite a (negative) factor in the light of the claims he has made. He appears highly capable in the field of computer imagery (he's IT professional anyhow) but his almost total reliance on computer anlysis of b&w pictures doesn't really make him a serious researcher. Things can be manipulated and he was "caught"! I don't believe he has any credibility when it comes to the paint chemistry.

Bottom line, I agree that this topic is fascinating. Lot of work is to be done, particularly to tear down cliches surviving among Western modelers.

Cheers,

Mario

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Hi Mario,

thanks for your time.

For Russian modeller's Pilaskii's credibility is gone to the drain because of blatant errors and claims he can't prove.

Things are clearer now.

2. Albom Nakrasok

well, if it contains samples of the most of standard VVS camo paints with their description etc. how useful can it be, what do you think?

If Vakhlamov/Orlov don't show it in their index it doesn't mean much since focus of their work is not really on in-depth research of the correct shades and possible FS equivalents etc. They deal with VVS camo&marking system as whole, in the perspective of circumstances, orders, nomenclature, links between governments, VVS headquarters and relevant industries (did you read it in it's entirety?)

I was, to say the least, very surprised to find no mention of the Albom Nakrask. That's explain it.

My master of the russian language is not enough to read it entirely. I'm at the stage where I can understand words, captions.

My Harrap's french-russian dictionary is used to the full :-)

Bottom line, I agree that this topic is fascinating. Lot of work is to be done, particularly to tear down cliches surviving among Western modelers.

You're right lot of work to be done.

But at least Pilaskii's works had made the VVS a subject of interest for western modellers.

It's far better than my Airfix Yak-9 I painted green/brown in the sixties ;-))

Jean

Edited by Apex1701

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Afaik only 2 copies survived, 1 in private posession (in Finland?) and another in S.t Petersburg's archive which can only be studied there and unfortunately cann't be taken away for making good pictures and scans

Mario, this copy is in Moscow Central Library, not in St.Petersburg. And yes, this copy couldn't be taken away from archive. This is another picture from this Album:

80603862.th.jpg

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Mario, this copy is in Moscow Central Library, not in St.Petersburg. And yes, this copy couldn't be taken away from archive. This is another picture from this Album:

80603862.th.jpg

Hi Dimmy! It's good to see you again - you are always very helpful! I'll certainly study this carefully. One thing that always puzzles me, though, is how close AMT-11 and AMT-12 are in this image. The two colours seem to be more obviously different from each other in black-and-white photos of actual aircraft. Thank you very much for your help!

(Now I'll have to find a tin of Humbrol 79... :wave: )

John

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