TA-4F from CVW-5

[Tomas Macourek]

I read at www.skyhawk.org that some of Skyhawk units of Carrier Air Wing Five (CVW-5) had in use double seat TA-4Fs. In the concrete they were VA-22 Fighting Redcocks, VA-56 Champions, VA-94 Mighty Shrikes and VA-144 Roadrunners. I have some pics for TA-4F of VA-144 (and I have this plane already built) but I have any of the others squadrons. Could somebody help me with photos? Thanks, Tom.

[spejic]

I can't find anything in any of my resources. You might try the Ginter TA-4F/TA-4J book, but half-tone printed black and white pictures aren't the best as a modeling reference.

[Superheat]

Hi Tomas,

I don't know where you are seeing that, I cannot find it on skyhawk.org, and I have serious doubts. I know that CAG-21 on Hancock on the 73-74 and 75 cruises had some T's for the Iron Hand mission with 164 and maybe 55, but CAG-5's last cruise with A-4's was in 1970 on the Bonny Dick and that was during the bombing halt over the North, so not much in the way of Iron Hand missions. I was over there at the same time in VF-162 on the Shang with VA-12 and VA-172 in A-4C's and VA-152 in A-4E's and we had no T's on board, and I do not recall hearing anything about T's on BHR. Bonny Dick was involved in the Son Tay raid in late 1970 and may have had some for that mission, I don't know, we had left by then, but I doubt it, though I stand ready to be corrected.

Cheers,

Tom

[Tailspin Turtle]

For sure VA-164 borrowed a couple of TA-4Fs from the Marines for their 1973 deployment on Hancock to provide designation for the laser-guided bombs that could be carried by their A-4Fs equipped with a laser-spot trackers and a Ferranti gun sight that displayed the spot. I'm not aware of any other TA-4s that deployed on a carrier. However, VA squadrons not deployed might have a TA on the ramp in their markings for instrument proficiency, logistics, etc. I have a couple of pictures of those.

[Tomas Macourek]

...I cannot find it on skyhawk.org...

I found these information here - in list of assigned Skyhawks to the unit:

VA-22 http://a4skyhawk.org/3e/va22/va22-a4-unit-assign.htm there is written that TA-4F deployed on BHR 13 Nov 1969

VA-56 http://a4skyhawk.org/3e/va56/va56-a4-unit-assign.htm maybe not deployed - NAS Lemoore, CA

VA-94 http://a4skyhawk.org/3e/va94/va94-a4-unit-assign.htm first TA-4F deployed on BHR at 12 Jul 1968, next one - same information as by VA-22 but with another date - 23 Nov 1969 (maybe only mistake in transcription)

Here is attached picture of TA-4F from VA-144 Roadrunners assigned to CVW-5

Edited September 13, 2010 by Tomas Macourek

[Tailspin Turtle]

I found these information here - in list of assigned Skyhawks to the unit:

VA-22 http://a4skyhawk.org/3e/va22/va22-a4-unit-assign.htm there is written that TA-4F deployed on BHR 13 Nov 1969

VA-56 http://a4skyhawk.org/3e/va56/va56-a4-unit-assign.htm maybe not deployed - NAS Lemoore, CA

VA-94 http://a4skyhawk.org/3e/va94/va94-a4-unit-assign.htm first TA-4F deployed on BHR at 12 Jul 1968, next one - same information as by VA-22 but with another date - 23 Nov 1969 (maybe only mistake in transcription)

Here is attached picture of TA-4F from VA-144 Roadrunners assigned to CVW-5

I cross referenced these with a list of squadron deployments (here). In general, the squadrons were not deployed at the time. One exception was the VA-56 TA-4Fs listed as NAS Lemoore, not the ship that the squadron was deployed on at the time, which is again indicative of the squadron's shore-based usage of the TAs. The other was the VA-94 TA-4F, but the airplane was listed as being assigned in the middle of the deployment, which doesn't seem likely. I think the fact that a ship is listed is simply indicative of the squadron's ship/air wing assignment at the time, not the fact that the airplane was deployed on that ship.

[Tailspin Turtle]

But as I wrote before, there was at least one deployment utilizing TA-4Fs. See here.

[Tomas Macourek]

Thanks for information, but question wasn't if TA-4Fs of these units were deployed on board on carrier but if these units really have assigned TA-4s when they were assigned to CVW-5. Exactly I am interrested if double seats ever wear NF tailcode and their marking.

[Superheat]

Thomas

That photo was taken after the '69 cruise, which was from 18 Mar to 29 Oct. I guarantee that 144 had no T's on the '69 cruise, I would have known, since I was over there at the same time, even in Cubi with them a couple times and, Naval Aviators being Naval Aviators, the grief that 144 would have gotten for having "Trainers" would have been memorable to say the least. As Tommy said, A-4 squadrons were assigned TA-4F's during the turnaround cycle but not when deployed, other than VA-164 on Hancock in 1973. Deployed or not (and note that there is no carrier name in the photo, not that that means anything), it s a cool set of markings, so if you like them, by all means do them, but if you want to do a combat cruise, carrier deployed TA-4F, the inference I drew in your original post, your only choice is VA-164 in 1973.

Cheers,

Tom

[Tomas Macourek]

Thanks a lot.

Tom.

Edited September 13, 2010 by Tomas Macourek

[Superheat]

Thanks for information, but question wasn't if TA-4Fs of these units were deployed on board on carrier but if these units really have assigned TA-4s when they were assigned to CVW-5. Exactly I am interrested if double seats ever wear NF tailcode and their marking.

Strictly speaking the answer to the first part is no. Squadrons were only under the administrative control of the Air Wing when they were deployed, beginning immediately prior to deployment. When shore based during the turnaround cycle, they belonged to their local community command. At Lemoore at the time that would have been (IIRC) Light Attack Wing Pacific. They did, though, retain the Air Wing code, unless they were changing Air Wings*, then they would adopt the new code. So the answer to your exact question: "Exactly I am interested if double seats ever wear NF tailcode and their marking" is yes. Hope this ends the confusion, at least mine!

Cheers,

Tom

*During the Vietnam War, the Attack community at Lemoore had a policy of "First in, First out", meaning that if CVW-16, for instance, came back from cruise before other Air Wings that were due to deploy again before CVW-16, then the CVW-16 attack squadrons would change to earlier deploying Air Wings, and CVW-16 would have different attack squadrons on the next cruise. This "musical squadrons" policy explains why you see attack squadrons in different Air Wings on different cruises. In the same way, Air Wings would move from one carrier to another. CVW-16 returned from the infamous 1967 cruise on Oriskany in Jan 1968 with VA-163 and VA-164 in A-4's and VA-152 in A-1's, and departed in Feb 1969 with VA-25 and VA-87 in A-7B's and VA-112 in A-4C's (and yours truly in VF-162).

Edited September 13, 2010 by Superheat

[Tomas Macourek]

Totally clear to me. Thank you for help with this teaser.