Gemini 1/24th Ejection Seat Fit Issues

[taneal1]

Gemini builds with an interior, either LVM or scratchbuilt, are having issues with the ejection seats. Either the seats are too large, or the pressure vessel is too small. Or both. I'd like to use the LVM seats in a build and I'm wondering if anyone has verified that the size of the Gemini pressure vessel is correct. I think that might be easier to correct than the seats. Also, for anyone that has used the LVM, are the kit astros a good fit? If so, then narrowing the seats is not an option.

 

Also, has anyone tried Shapeways' Max Gruter astronaut figure designed to fit the Revell 1/24? Shapeways 1/24th Revell Gemini astronaut

Edited July 13, 2023 by taneal1

[K2Pete]

Yup, I had the same issues with LVM's interior ... but I made those %#$@&!! Ejection seats fit. It was messy, but nobody's the wiser.

Here's the link to the WIP build here on ARC ... LVM closed down during my build. At the time, I wondered if my negative review had anything to do with their decision.

I haven't used the Shapeways Astronaut as I modified the kit's Astronaut for an EVA depiction.

 

http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?/topic/304698-124-gemini-9a-part-2/

 

Let's see your progress in pix taneal1 ... don't be shy!  :^ D

Pete

 

[K2Pete]

I did this for a Group Build and the seat issues are better described in that thread ... take a peek, it'll just corroborate your issues.

Pete

 

 

 

[taneal1]

4 hours ago, K2Pete said:

Yup, I had the same issues with LVM's interior ... but I made those %#$@&!! Ejection seats fit. It was messy, but nobody's the wiser.

Thanks for the response, Pete.

 

I have seen your excellent build and taken note of your solution to make it all fit. An homage to a footless Fred Flintstone😁. I'd like the option of opening both hatches, so a different fix may be necessary. The model has unoccupied spaces outboard of the pressure vessel on both sides, and below the footwells. I'm thinking that a slight widening of this piece might alleviate the 'elbow room' issue, and an extension of the footwell might allow the complete astro figures to fit.

Time to dig out the kit and try a dry fit...

 

Tom

Edited July 13, 2023 by taneal1
Formatting

[taneal1]

 Hello There Pete,

 

I know its been a while since your Gemini 9A build, but I'm thinking the $%$*!!@@ Ejection Seat v. Pressure Vessel issue might have stayed with you...

The aft end of the Gemini Pressure Vessel is formed by the "LPB" (Large Pressure Bulkhead). It is dish-shaped like the spacecraft Heatshield, and located immediately forward of it. The LVM kit incorrectly includes a FLAT PE replacement part for this. The bases of the Seat Rail supports are actually semispherical rather than straight as depicted by LVM. At the top of the Rails, the Seat Rail Supports start out quite thin, and then get considerably thicker until reaching the halfway point, and then again taper off until reaching the bottom of the rail. The effect of this configuration is that the back of the Ejection Seat is moved backward several (fullscale) inches. This relocation would allow/require the seat raised to match the hatch lip due to the forward sloping hatch. A narrow plastic extension along the aft perimeter of the Pressure Vessel could then be added which would create more legroom and elbow room.

Also, IMO, the kit astronaut is sitting noticeably lower in the seat than the crew is sitting in NASA photos. If he were raised up higher above the seat pan, or the Ejection Seat back was shortened and the entire seat raised this would create more vertical legroom and elbow room. The original helmet visor on the Gemini suit retracted under a protective guard which was integral to the helmet. This was removed to create more headroom. The Apollo 1 crew wore Gemini suits with this visor guard installed because there were no headroom issue in the Apollo CM.  Above an altitude of 15,000' the astronauts decided they would rather remain within the safety of the spacecraft than accept the dangerous ejection process up to an altitude of 70,000'. Thus, starting with Gemini 5, the Seat Emergency O2 pack was removed. This lowered the seat pan by 2". The insulation in the hatch above the astronauts heads was removed to create what was called the "Stafford Bump. Even with all these changes, the majority of the Gemini astronauts were still sitting with their helmeted heads touching the hatch.

Any thoughts on the above are greatly appreciated. Also, a Guide for the folding of this PE would be helpful. 😁 

 

Tom

Edited July 15, 2023 by taneal1
Formatting

[K2Pete]

Gee ... my Gemini was over 9 models ago so my recollection is poor. 

Got guidance on the folding of the seats?, I guess I would say, make a paper or cardboard pattern and fold that up using the LVM kit's instructions. There was a lot of trial and error with me, folded, realized it was wrong and refolded and it broke. (Can I assume you've looked at my other threads?) This 2018 version was my 2nd Gemini 9A model. The first one was in a Group Build in 2008, with Ejection seats that were 100% scratch built. I had ZERO fit issues with those ... the entire interior was scratch built and I had a ball making it all. Here's the link ... 

 

 

 

Let me tell you my approach to building a model. What will the viewer see? Will they be looking at the detail or will a lump of styrene, in the right place, make them think I added a lot of detail? I've determined that that is the case. So with the Gemini's interior, how much is a judge, or a casual viewer, going to notice? Not much, even with both hatches open. Will they notice the Seats are 2 millimetres higher than they are in real life? Nosirree ... I might, but not anybody else. Will they detect a hole in the side bulkhead to allow for an elbow? Nope ... but I might ask about your patched up solution. So the added effort to fit the seats correctly is admirable but not necessary IMHO.

 

In my model, the non-EVA astro is seated on the bare Brass of the PE, so his head clearance is pretty tight and one can't see his feet, his missing feet that is. The thinking that you're doing is good, but you're best to build the PE seats and you'll do a helluva lot of test fitting. Things like the seated height of the kit Astronaut will be better solved when you've got something tangible to fit ...

 

I just took a couple pix of my 2018 model, see what you can see. Does the height of the Ejection Seat look off? Not to me, another millimetre or two might, but I'd be hard pressed.

 

 

 

I don't remember if there was interference with the Astro's knees to the Instrument Panel ... again, you'll see when you do your dry fits. Will you be augmenting the seats like I did? You may not need to get the Astros to fit properly. With both your hatches open, his head, as long as it isn't sitting a half inch proud of the opening, who's gonna notice?

 

 

If you have any more questions Tom, fire away ... but trying to anticipate the problems and solutions will only go so-far ... the test fitting will result in you wanting to pitch the darn thing against the wall ... may-y-y-be-e  a few times!  :^ D

 

But I'm still proud of my builds. I just entered this one in a show a couple months ago. The judge had no appreciation for the amount of extra stuff I did to it and it didn't even place, but, i'm quite happy with it!

 

Pete

 

 

 

[taneal1]

5 hours ago, K2Pete said:

Got guidance on the folding of the seats?, I guess I would say, make a paper or cardboard pattern and fold that up using the LVM kit's instructions. There was a lot of trial and error with me, folded, realized it was wrong and refolded and it broke. (Can I assume you've looked at my other threads?)

 Last night I decided to make a couple of copies of the seat on paper for practice folding. As soon as I can get my damn Printer working I'll do that... 😒 Also, I may try trimming the paper versions for a better seat fit. I'm not experienced with PE, but I think it's possible to trim it during the assembly process. If that doesn't work then a styrene version can be done of the paper version.

And you'd better believe I've looked at your other threads!

 

6 hours ago, K2Pete said:

with Ejection seats that were 100% scratch built. I had ZERO fit issues with those

Your scratched seats look every bit as good as the PE seats. Do you recall if you measured the Pressure Vessel and sized them accordingly? 
 

6 hours ago, K2Pete said:

 

Let me tell you my approach to building a model. What will the viewer see? Will they be looking at the detail or will a lump of styrene, in the right place, make them think I added a lot of detail? I've determined that that is the case. So with the Gemini's interior, how much is a judge, or a casual viewer, going to notice? Not much, even with both hatches open. Will they notice the Seats are 2 millimetres higher than they are in real life? Nosirree ... I might, but not anybody else. Will they detect a hole in the side bulkhead to allow for an elbow? Nope ... but I might ask about your patched up solution. So the added effort to fit the seats correctly is admirable but not necessary IMHO.

Agree 100%.

Additionally, I actually enjoy the research every bit as much as actually doing the build. Once I've found every interesting detail that I can, I have to decide what to include and what not to include. Usually, how visible the detail will be on the finished project make this determination for me. At the moment I'm looking at the hatch hinge cover and trying to figure out how that functions. With the hatch closed, the cover is flush with the shingles and protects the hinges from launch and re-entry heat. When the hatch is opened, the cover apparently is first raised out of its niche and then as the hatch is opened it then moves down to provide clearance for the edge of the hatch. The model depicts the cover in the closed position, but during an EVA the cover can be seen in the open position. An interesting detail IMO.

I enjoy the challenge of "fixing" things by modifying or redesigning the original. My plan is to always eliminate any known issues before I start by coming up with multiple possible solutions, and then using the one that provides the best results. If the result is that I still have to carve out pieces in unseen areas then so be it. There are times when that is the only option, but I still am disappointed that I couldn't solve the problem...
 

Quote

 

I just took a couple pix of my 2018 model, see what you can see. Does the height of the Ejection Seat look off? Not to me, another millimetre or two might, but I'd be hard pressed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the new pics, and the seat height against the bulkhead looks perfect to me!

 

Quote

 

But I'm still proud of my builds.

 

Pete

 

 

And well you should be!

 

Tom

[K2Pete]

The researching for my models is fun for me too. I thought I knew the Space Program's vehicles until this internet thing came about ... WOW all that good info. And I used to look at other model sites for tips on what to prepare for regarding problems and fit issues.

I came across one builder who solved his LVM fit by cutting holes in the inner bulkhead and I did the same thing. I can't find his webpage any more. So like you, I like to be mentally prepared and pre-emptively think of solutions.

 

My Ejection Seats were built to fit the pressure vessel. Found a few pix and scaled 'em to fit. No fuss, no muss.

 

One of my inspirations with this model was David Weeks. I was stunned with his model of the Gemini B. I remember thinking, "I didn't know we could DO THAT!" ... that is improving a kit. Here's a link ...

 

https://ipmssd.org/wp/2018/02/14/modeling-the-gemini-b-in-1-24-scale/

 

And this PE is much thicker than usual so trimming it may not be an option. My use of PE is limited too so we're in the same boat.

 

I like the quote from a Mr Tyson "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face" ... with that in mind, I look forward to seeing your build thread Tom.

 

And if you have more questions, don't hesitate ... i'll help if I can!

Pete

[Glendor IV]

Hi All

   I am new to this forum. Be gentle with me :-)

 

   I have the Revell 1/24 Gemini but cannot get the LVM interior kit. Seems this may not be such a bad thing :-) But I would like to add some detail to the hatches and especially the controls etc. And the seats of coourse, although perhaps not as much detail as the LVM kit.

 

   I am not sure my scratchbuilding skills are so good but I can try!

Any advice is appreciated!

thanks