spaceman Posted August 5, 2017 Author Share Posted August 5, 2017 (edited) Hello everbody BTW, light and shadow, the devil is again in the detail, also at the determination of the Gutter support's dimensions. These dimensions are required for the supports sitting on the girders, which consist of an upper sickle-shaped holder and a T-profile, welded at the bottom. It is possible to calculate these on the basis of the reference dimensions, but this is a bit difficult because of the perspective distortions and the hidden rear gutter edge (dashed line), since one has to refer all measurements to the center of the gutter (dash-dot line), wherefore certain estimates are necessary. Regarding the overhang of the support, I would have been almost deceived, because the front light strip in the sunlight is only one half, the other half is in the shadow, which I did not notice at first. I'm going to ask my friend Joe (crackerjazz) in the ARC Forum whether he can help me again with his CAD software (SolidWorks), how at the time at the Rainbirds. I'm already curious, but this time these are a few dimensions more, although it is only a tiny detail ... Edited August 5, 2017 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted August 6, 2017 Author Share Posted August 6, 2017 Hello everybody, and here are the first SolidWorks Shots from my friend Joe. This was his first Front View, based on the diameter of the gutter (10''=254 mm), which is why all measurements are given in Inch which I converted in 1:144 (Ø gutter 1.8 mm). The depths are given in a Side View, based on the depth of the girder (1.5 mm), which also seems to be problematic in SolidWorks due to the extreme skewed perspektive of the girder and support and provides oversized values as one can see. Thereupon I had sent him my drawing, which was obviously helpful in the adjustment, from which this side view with mm values resulted, which looks already more realistic. Accordingly, it is obviously important to consider whether it concerns to values of widths and heights or depths, what I have not yet taken into account so consistently so far, but will do so in the future. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted August 11, 2017 Author Share Posted August 11, 2017 Hello everybody, but it does not have to be the Super CAD software SolidWorks, which I do not have and which is also very expensive. A friend in the Raumcon forum (Hugo) has done this with the comparatively simple program Sketchup and comes to quite acceptable results and is therfore suitable for such scale measurements. His measurements were recorded in one of his pictures, and the values estimated by me are written in brackets behind, which partly agrees quite well. The greatest differences between our measurements occur in the two encircled values, which is probably due to the fact that my lower values are falsified too much in the picture due to the extreme slant of the support, which is evidently better managed by Sketchup. And since this 3D software has interested me anyway and would offer itself for my constant elaborate scaling, I have downloaded the free version Sketchup MAKE and have tried it the same time. But all the beginning is hard and a lot is new and unfamiliar, which is why it took me a while until I have become acquainted with the special features of the Sketchup/3D construction step by step, because my 3D imagination still had to be trained. But by Learning by Doing I am at least familiar with the basic functions and most important tools. Only the adjustment with the photos I have not yet succeeded so far, which obviously takes a little getting used to. Thus, e.g. even the Tape measure function has so their pitfalls, since the measuring result is always only briefly shown, but then disappears and one must measure again. Therefore, one always has to make a separate screenshot, what surprised me at first. Then I have found out that one can help himself with Text markers, which is not the the answer to everything, but still works. Finally, I then have stopped my training and simply started the construction, free according to the principle Trial & Error. These two pictures show the results of my first experiments, whereby it is important for the later installation of the support that the height of the gutter is taken into account and the lateral edges are correspondingly lengthened, whereby these MLP gutters differ from the usually used roof gutters. As one can see, however, the rounding of the gutter by means of a three-point arc has not yet succeeded in an optimal way, and after a closer look at the optics some dimensions appeared to me also in need of improvement, e.g. the slightly too long 1.5 mm front edge. That is why in my next construction I have drawn the rounding of the gutter by means of a circle and the dimensions slightly modified, which looks much better. With these measures I can finally start with the production of the Supports. And what looks so enormous in the pictures is, in reality, so small that these differences in measures are unlikely to be noticed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K2Pete Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 I had wondered if you were using some kind of 3D software to get your measurements and to plot out your builds. But I am a little surprised to read that you're just now learning it! I had thought that you had been using the 3D for some time now. Myself, I'm going to resist learning it, until the day when I just can't build something without it. I'm still watching! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted August 13, 2017 Author Share Posted August 13, 2017 (edited) Hi Pete and thanks for looking in on me again. So far I had the same problem like you, I was very skeptical and long time I could not bring myself to try it. I've rather evaluated lots of photos and scaled the details using known reference dimensions and have drawn some sketches by hand, but this is very time-consuming. And on the other hand there are these awesome solutions by means of 3D modeling, which one only must have and needs to be able to master. So I tried it with the relatively simple program Sketchup and I'm proud of my first modest successes. Edited August 13, 2017 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 Way cool, Spaceman! This opens up a whole new world for you! You'll see how easier it would be drawing the 3D parts, printing them on paper, sticking them onto styrene for cutting then peeling the paper off -- instead of drawing onto the styrene sheet by hand using a pencil. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted August 13, 2017 Author Share Posted August 13, 2017 Hi Joe, if the parts are big enough, you may be right, but these gutter supports are too small to cut them out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted August 15, 2017 Author Share Posted August 15, 2017 Hello everybody, today I finally want to start with the production of the Supports, which immediately reminded me of the stressful fiddling with the Pipe Supports under the pipelines of the SSWS. I was immediately confronted with the question of how to get these tiny things as reproducibly as possible, which I had managed that time too. And this started again with the punching of the gutter roundings (Ø 1,8 mm) with the Punch Set. In order to maintain the same height of 0.6 mm below the round, I have applied a strip of styrene foil (0.2 mm) 0.6 mm in front of the punch opening (Ø 1.8 mm), at which I have aligned the styrene strip (0.1 mm). And then everything went quickly. However, with too great zeal, I had left too little space in the first row (above), what I then have corrected in the second row, because also for the later separation of the supports one needs sufficient distance, in particular to manage the front narrow support edge well. But the second row was then perfect. Then the punched strip had to be accurately separated in strict accordance with the support height of 1.7 mm. However, since this cannot be marked accurate enough, I have clamped the perforated strip between two steel rulers, fixed by means of two spacers, and could thus carefully cut the punched strip with the cutter. The next tricky thing was the uniform separation of the supports with a width of 2 mm, so that an overhang of about 0.3 mm remains at the front edge. And here, too, my then-trick with the two steel rulers proved successful. First of all I needed a few attempts to cut an end stop with exactly 2 mm length with the cutter-chisel. And by means of the edges of the steel ruler and the spacer I now had a good guide for alignment the cutter, and could cut off the supports with quiet hand, which actually gives nearly uniform supports. Now only the lower corners have to be cleverly separated, but if possible without sneezing. And then these tiny supports have only to be glued to the lower 0.7 mm narrow web strip (0.15 mm), but it's only questionable how this can be done best ... But maybe someone of you has a good idea in stock ... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted August 16, 2017 Author Share Posted August 16, 2017 Hello everybody, well, if nobody has an idea, then I have to think for myself. After a long period of testing, I have managed to position the support clamped in tweezer nearly in the middle of the 0.7 mm wide strip fixed between two rulers, and to brush it carefully on both sides with MEK. And here is the result of my first test. Afterwards, I've carefully cut off the ends of the strip, and the first prototype of such a support is finished. And so it looks like with provisorally placed gutter on the support. But when I imagine that I have to tinker about 32 pieces of this support type, which somehow have to be glued with CA on the gutters, then a rather queasy feeling is creeping over me already ... But let's look, time will tell ... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted August 17, 2017 Author Share Posted August 17, 2017 Hello everybody, on my macros it always looks so huge. But that is not the case, how this photo here from my normal working position at the desk shows, whereby I hope that you do not ask now, where the support is ... The problem with this matter is the extremely difficult handling of these tiny parts, as well as their fragility, since the bottom edge of the sickle is only 0.1 mm "wide". But by the glueing with the lower flange the things at least stand upright, which might perhaps facilitate the later assembly on the gutter. The stupid is only that there are hardly any suitable places to grab with the tweezer, because only the front approximately 1 mm long but very narrow part (0.3 mm) comes into question, since the lower edge (0, 6 mm x 1.6 mm) must be accessible for the MEK brush. The tip of the scissors tweezer is almost too large and also squeezes this front narrow web too much, which is why you need a different solution. I had first helped me with a clamp over a normal tweezer, whose bite was tolerable thereby. And this clamp handle must now be positioned only still centrically over the fixed narrow strip, and then the pointed MEK brush comes. For glueing together the supports onto the gutter I imagine that I fix the gutter with the rounding upwards at an end stop, and then the supports are sinked in the clamp grip over the roundness and carefully painted with MEK, after which they hopefully stick. This sounds adventurous indeed, but could work. Before the assembly of the gutter, the next tricky procedure of the airbrush painting would come, presumably first outside and then inside, for which I still have to think over a skillful holder for these fragile structures. And not until then when the complete gutter is painted with all the supports, it can be glued to the top edge of the MLP, what is still a mystery to me. But somehow I'll make it, I think, even if the gutters should get some bumps, but the real gutters had also their traces of usage back then ... Source: NASA But initially I still have to struggle with the rest of the supports ... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted August 17, 2017 Author Share Posted August 17, 2017 Hello everybody, in the meantime I have refined my previous clamping device and stabilized it. For this purpose, I fixed my most pointed tweezers with the support between magnets on a steel plate so that the lower edge of the support rests planar on the web strip, which is also fixed between two steel rulers. The clamp is required because the tweezer is non-magnetic. In the clamped state, I could now take them away, because the magnets are strong enough, but it does not interfere, because the splice is freely accessible with the MEK brush. And besides, nothing should shift. This is by the way the finest marten brush (5/0), which I could find. The advantage of this arrangement is that I can position the rulers with the inserted strip relatively easily and above all fairly precisely centrally under the support by careful shifting and can then lower it. And with the necessary calm and patience I will manage it already. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 I really admire your resolve, Manfred. These are microscopic parts! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted August 17, 2017 Author Share Posted August 17, 2017 Thanks Joe, you know these tiny supports. Necessity is the mother of invention, and in improvisation I have always been a stunner. One does not necessarily need HighTech tools, but ideas one must have, then many things are going easier ... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted August 19, 2017 Author Share Posted August 19, 2017 (edited) Hello everybody, a friend from the Raumcon Forum has sent me two special clamps, which of course had to be tried immediately. Their function is relatively simple. As can be seen in the picture, when the two parts are pressed together, a small, opening clamp is pushed out of the tube, with which the part can be gripped. When releasing, the clamp snaps the part and is retracted by an internal return spring, but in this way also thin or narrow parts with diameters/widths ≤ 1 mm, which would not be good for my dainty supports. While the upper 1.5 mm wide strip stops before the opening of the tube, the lower 0.8 mm wide strip would be pulled in by the spring force of this original clamp. Therefore my friend has inserted a weaker spring in the lower clamp, whereby the pull-back force can be dosed, but now the stability of the clamp grip is now no longer sufficient to be able to position parts like my supports exactly before gluing. Therefore these clamps are unfortunately not suitable for the handling of these tiny supports, but for other purposes they could be quite useful. It would be more convenient for the handling, if the inner clip could be rotated by 90°, what might be possible. That's why I've continued fiddling around with it, and I came up with the idea of converting my adjustable cutting compass to an adjustable "tweezer", that's why I replaced the tip by inserting a second cutting edge. As a result, the support can be clamped on a suitable base between the two cutting edges so that the clearance under the support corresponds approximately to the thickness of the strip on which the support is to be glued. Depending on the strength of the clamping grip of the cutting edges, the position of the support can also be adjusted relatively easily in this way. This clamping device can also be easily transferred to the sheet metal and fixed in the mini-vice. And after centering the support over the strip, the strip can then be glued in flat contact with MEK. This new method is much simpler and above all more stable than the previous somewhat wobbly arrangement with the tweezer fixed between the magnets and the top clamp. Edited August 19, 2017 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted August 21, 2017 Author Share Posted August 21, 2017 Hello folks, and forward with the gutter-supports, which still keep me in breath. Next, the lower edges still had to be beveled. These are admittedly only about 0.4 mm, but in hindsight these edges should also fairly look uniform, which is why one needs a stop too. For this I have clamped the supports under a steel ruler and so aligned that only a 0.3 mm long corner has looked out from under the ruler, which I have adjusted by applying a 0.3 mm wide strip. And these tiny corners were then cut off with the cutter chisel at the ruler. This was followed by the bonding of the supports with MEK on the lower support strip according to my new method, whereby the central alignment on the strip takes most of the time, especially if the front edge of the support is to be positioned precisely over the front edge of the strip. My new pointed brush has proven itself in any case and was also necessary for brushing of the tiny contact line with MEK. After that, only the strip at the rear edge needed to be cut off, and the next support was ready. And so I have now at least already a pair, which I have tested under the gutter, which I liked definitely. And so it can go on ... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K2Pete Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 Your clamping solution is so-o-o creative ... these younger kids here may not even recognize or have used these compasses, not only as drafting tools but as ... clamps. And it gave you a perfect result! Plus, your photographs are excellent ... it shows us ex-ACT-ly your problem and your solution. You're an excellent story teller! But, my friend, when I see images of the RSS, I wonder, if you'll EVER be able to complete it to this level of detail ... but, I'm really enjoying watching your progress with this project. I hope to get back into building real soon and I take inspiration from your build! Thanx! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted August 23, 2017 Author Share Posted August 23, 2017 (edited) Thanks Pete for your nice words, which are welcome every time. But there is also an easier and above all faster solution, provided one has a quiet hand and a good sense of distance, which I've tried today. The strip is clamped between the steel rulers as before. Then I've tackled the support at the upper ends with the tweezer and gently dipped the edge into a flat CA drop, and set it down as centrally as possible on the strip, where it started glueing. For a short moment it is possible to correct the support's seat minimally with the fingernail or tweezer. Then I have still painted a little bit MEK onto both sides. Finally I've cut off the front overhang with the slanting edge of the cutter chisel, and then the rear overhang with the straight cutting edge. And these are less handgrips than with the previous solution with the cutting compass, so why complicated, if it goes also easier. To your question regarding the RSS (and also the FSS) I can tell you that I have already asked myself this question. But the Launch Pad is such a huge and complex technical monster and by far the most difficult Real Space Modeling project, which one can imagine, wherefore only a few incurable optimists are ready to rise to such a challenge. Therefore I must confess that this high level of detailing will certainly be illusory, and that's why I then have to restrain myself a bit, whether I like it or not ... ... ... Maybe I'm also a dreamer in this sense ... Edited August 24, 2017 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted August 25, 2017 Author Share Posted August 25, 2017 Hello everybody, meanwhile the 19 supports for the three gutters on the Side 2 are finished. These are the 16 supports with the lower flange, as well as three without the flange. Two supports each are welded to the angle profiles at the front and rear corner, Source: Raumcon (eumel) and the third support sits on the narrow girder between the Bay 12 and Bay 13, Source: apollosaturn.com (John Duncan) which one can see here somewhat better on Side 4. Source: Raumcon (eumel) Now I have only to work out a skilful method, how I can glue the supports on the aluminum gutters, wherefore this time only CA is suitable. And this will probably not be possible without a special holder jig for the gutters, I think. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted August 29, 2017 Author Share Posted August 29, 2017 Hello together, well then let's get back to the work, if it's also difficult. First, I tried my proposed solution with the upside-down gutter, for which I used a gutter, bended out of shape, as well as a wasted support. For holding the gutter I have made myself a narrow core strip, for which I have glued a 1.5 mm half-round profile on a 1 mm square bar, on which the gutter was then placed. Since a fixed stop of the gutter is important for the gluing of the supports, my Balsa pin-and-clamp technology was again used. Then I have tackled the support with the tweezer at the bottom edge and wetted the inner rounding carefully with an acupuncture needle with a few CA droplets. After that, I have lowered it very carefully onto the gutter, so that it touched easily the angle stop with the rear edge, and after a short moment carefully released. Unfortunately, nothing can be corrected at this position, and either the support is centered over the rounding of the gutter and at right angles to the longitudinal axis, or also not. Unfortunately, the latter was the case because the gutter was obviously not evenly rounded. Then I have still tried another holding method with a cross tweezer, for which the gutter with the inserted core strip was fixed between magnets. But also this time the seat of the support was not perfect. That's why I probably will return to the upright arrangement of the gutter, as it was shown already one time. For this I will clamp the support upright between two steel rulers, whereby they are standing already vertical. And then the gutter with the core strip at the angle stop is lowered to the inner rounding of the support, which was previously wetted with CA. And also by using this method it will be advisable to glue the supports successively separately with the gutter, which I will try next time. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted August 31, 2017 Author Share Posted August 31, 2017 Hello everybody, I have yet again changed my plan and moulded a new Gutter 2, since the first gutter had been a little too short. This is the gutter with the hole for the downspout, which then flows into the vertical downspout at the end of the Bay 17. Source: Library of Congress After the hole (Ø 1.5 mm) for the downspout was punched, the gutter was again moulded in the gradually decreasing half-tubes with corresponding core wires. Then the gutter floors were glued in, and the gutter was ready. But tomorrow the supports really will follow. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 2, 2017 Author Share Posted September 2, 2017 (edited) Hello together, today I have tried to put the planned method for glueing the supports to the gutter into action, which has expectedly proved to be a difficult undertaking. For fixing the supports between the steel rulers I needed again my steel sheet, on which I first attached a tape with the support distances. As a vertical stop for the gutter, I fixed a steel ruler vertically in front of a longer brass angle with magnets, behind which however unfortunately also my markings disappeared, which is why I've also taped the same marking tape on the ruler. And in front of this stop, I then clamped the first support between two more steel rulers and fixed them with magnets. After that, I have put the gutter with the core strip on the support and eyed the arrangement up, which was okay so far, except that the markings were covered up again. Therefore, I had to change my plan and fixed the gutter with an additional steel ruler as end stop. For glueing of the support, CA had to be applied there, the question was only how or where best, so that in the end not everything glues together ... In order no risking that the support during the CA application would glue between the steel rulers, I have marked the contact point at the gutter. Then I took the core strip away, dabbed a mini-CA droplet on the front rounding of the gutter and then positioned the core strip including the gutter to the rear stop and finally lowered it carefully to the support, what has worked well so far. And after removing of the core strip, the gutter glued only at the support, so that the rulers could be removed too. For stabilization, I have carefully dabbed the support from both sides with CA with an acupuncture needle, wherewith the first support had been successfully glued. And since this method has worked as I have imagined it and has proved itself, the glueing of the remaining supports can now take place in a similar way. Every beginning is difficult. So you are now up to date again. Edited September 2, 2017 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 2, 2017 Author Share Posted September 2, 2017 (edited) Hello everybody, after the successful glueing of the first support today I have glued the remaining five Supports at the Gutter 2. In order to get with the steel rulers into the interstices between the supports, however, I had to clamp them vertically, otherwise it was the same procedure as before. For clamping the tiny supports between the rulers one needs, however, patience and a quiet hand, since the supports can quickly tip over. Then CA was applied again and the gutter with the core strip lowered to the second support and glued thereby. And so it went on until the fifth and penultimate support on this gutter. Then came the last support, which lines up precisely with the gutter end at the beginning of the Bay 11, as one can see in this image. Source: apollosaturn.com (John Duncan) And after this support was glued, the Gutter 2 was finally finished. Next, the short Gutter 3 follows at the end of the Side 2, which has only two supports, and thereafter finally the Gutter 1 at the front of the side with its nine supports. Edited September 2, 2017 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 8, 2017 Author Share Posted September 8, 2017 Hello everyone, as already announced, the short Gutter 3 at the end of Side 2 came next with only two supports as one can see in this image. Source: Library of Congress Since I had already shaped the gutter some time ago, now only the gutter soils with CA had to be glued in, which again happened on Teflon foil, and relatively quickly was done. Afterwards, the support (with flange) was clamped in the known and proven manner between the steel rulers, and above it the gutter was glued as usual. The assembly was then turned upside down and the rear support (without flange) glued. And so the Gutter 3 was already finished, and fits well to the Gutter 2. Now still missing the front Gutter 1, which is running from the Bay 9 up to the Bay 1 at the beginning of Side 2. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 16, 2017 Author Share Posted September 16, 2017 Hello everyone, although these tricky gutters also do not necessarily lead me to cheers, it does not use anything, and therefore the work must go on. And now to the Gutter 1, which is supported by eight supports with a flange and by one support without flange at the beginning of the Side 2. Source: apollosaturn.com (John Duncan) In contrast to the side end (Bay 18) the gutter, flattened outwards above the Bay 1, is connected to the other gutter part directly at the outlet of the downspout in front of the front girder, which is why there is no support there. Therefore, both gutter parts must be glued directly dull one to another at this point, which should not become quite easy as the edges will probably provide little sufficient area due to the very thin aluminum plate (0.1 mm). Here one can see both gutter parts lying on a narrow core strip, so far so good. At first, the bottom of the gutter was glued at the back end. Subsequently, the glueing of the supports took place according to the tried and tested clamping technique, almost as before. Since the distances between the girders in the front part of the side is slightly less than in the rear part, the steel ruler did not fit between them in the following Bays, which is why I had to redispose. But with narrow cutter knives as a stop, the problem was solved quickly, it went on fast, and up to the 7th support everything looked well. But during constant handling with this unwieldy structure I must have somehow nudged to the third support, whereby its lower flange was suddenly kinked off. After the support had been repaired, he could be glued again and closed the gap. Finally, the last support between the Bay 2/3 followed, whereby this gutter part was completely supported. But now the more difficult part of the exercise was next to do, namely, the dull gluing of both gutter parts, which has given me some headache. For this I firstly came up with this stable magnet fixing of the gutter over a somewhat wider core strip, which was unfortunately thought too short. In this arrangement, the top edge of the front gutter part would run outwardly obliquely, what should not be, but rather it must be exactly the other way round. In contrast, the upper edge of the gutter is a continuous line, while the lower edge slightly rises towards the outside. Therefore I have glued the external support without flange, which I first wanted to lay down from above (here only temporary done), what I but then differently have done, because one this tiny part can hardly hold still in the tweezers, let alone put exactly straight to the point. That is why I stapled the support on a conversely glued tape strip and then carefully lowered the gutter end, dabbed with tiny CA, which also worked well. And now again to the dull gluing of the two gutter parts flat above two half-round profiles (1.5 mm) for better guidance. In order to achieve a possible flush connection of the two roundings, I then have glued a small supporting profile (0.5x1.5 mm rectangular profile + half-round profile), and inserted it into the longer gutter part together with a Teflon strip as CA protection. Afterwards, I dabbed the gutter end on the rounding with CA and layed the part over the support profile and lightly pressed, in the hope that both parts would somehow glue together. Unfortunately, this hope has not been fulfilled, because after removing the supporting profile from the gutter suddenly two parts were laying in front of me again. So I was rather frustrated and I have to think about a different solution, which is why good ideas are required. So please feel free, but rather come up with it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K2Pete Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 I wish I could offer you some kind of solution ... but your skills are way-y-y-y beyond mine ... I'm watching this ... to LEARN!! Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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