color change over

[catfan]

OK so i have some Bf 109e's in my collection but one of them says to paint the interior in REALM but if its from the Battle of Britten wouldn't the color be RLM 02? so i guess my question is when did the change over happen from rlm 02 to rlm 66

[seawinder]

OK so i have some Bf 109e's in my collection but one of them says to paint the interior in REALM but if its from the Battle of Britten wouldn't the color be RLM 02? so i guess my question is when did the change over happen from rlm 02 to rlm 66

From what I read, anything through E-3 would most probably be 02 with 66 instrument panel. Late E-4s and E-7s could be overall 66. I believe the change-over occurred in 1942.

Pip

[Stona]

There are some questions which have no definitive answer. Two of the most frequent are "what colour was the cockpit of a Bf 109 E?" and "what colour should I paint my Spitfire wheel wells?".

RLM 66 was being used as an interior colour by Junkers and Heinkel to name but two in 1939/40.The colour existed and the precedent for its use internally is undeniable.

There is pretty solid photographic evidence that some Bf 109 Es of the 1940 period had some or all of the cockpit interior painted in a colour much darker than RLM 02 and RLM 66 would be the logical assumption. Most were RLM 02. It may be that those with the darker colour had had a major overhaul or repair,it may even depend which contractor carried it out,but the darker colour was sometimes present in "Emils" in 1940.

There was no definite date for a changeover. It is often linked to the 1941 changeover to the RLM 74/75/76 camouflage scheme,but that itself was being applied by Messerschmitt months before the formal directive issued in November.

The most definite answer to your original question would be,paint your Bf 109 E cockpits in RLM 02 unless you have some good evidence to the contrary.

Cheers

Steve

[bigjugs]

From one of the best researchers on the 109 and BoB.

Sorry but I have to disagree with you regarding the E-4/7 series as the E-7 was nothing more than an E-4 plumbed to carry a drop tank and thus the norm was for an 02 cockpit. Yes, there are instances of E-4/7s with 66 finished cockpits but these are in the minority in period photos where the cockpit interior is visible. Incidentally, a number of ‘E-7s’ were already entering service before the end of October 1940 and although plumbed for and actively carrying drop tanks were still simply referred to as E-4s in not only unit strength returns and manufacturer’s documents but also by the manufacturers plate on the aircraft.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, a 66 finished cockpit on an E was more relevant to the sub-contractor who built the original airframe than to any order or directive regarding protective finishes. 02 remained the standard cockpit finish applied up to very early in the production of the F-2 when Messerschmitt introduced the application of the 74/75/76 colours on the production line along with 66 cockpits during the spring of 1941. However, you are correct in your observation that some recycled E airframes received 66 as a cockpit finish but again, this was more generally dependant upon which sub-contractor carried out the work. This is evident from photos of recycled E airframes converted to the Jabo role for service on the Eastern front in 1941/42 and just to confuse the issue even more, even included a number issued from Messerschmitt in October 1941.

I also can’t fully agree with you about your suggestion of an early ‘transition period’ as this did not really occur as such until circa the spring of 1941. As explained above regarding early F-2 production (which began in January 1942), the camo & colour changes for the 109F had actually began some seven months in advance of the promulgation of L.Dv.521/1 issued on 8 Nov 1941 which officially specified (for fighters) to switch to the use of 66 in cockpit areas and 74/75/76 camouflage.

Cheers

Dave

By and large the cockpit interior colour for the 109E was 02 and remained so until early in the F production.

However, having said this, photos taken of several 109s brought down over the UK where the cockpit interiors are visible show them to be of a very dark finish suggesting the use of 66.

I have several interior shots of E-3s showing this dark colour but equally, I have even more showing what is obviously 02. To confuse the issue further there are photos of downed E-3s, -4s and 7s that clearly show that while the base cockpit colour is 02, the cockpit sills (ledges)and sloped cockpit metalwork aft of the pilot are in 66 while other photos show these areas in 02.

Undisputably and as proven by photographs, a number of 109Es had cockpits finished in 66 but this appears to tie in more with those airframes built by Fiesler, Arado etc than with Messerschmitt built airframes.

I'm currently working on an article for posting here on the Lair which will consist of a listing of each 109E brought down over the UK that will contain the Crashed Enemy Aircraft Report, the contents of each pilot interrogation and other relevant material.

Additionally, I will also include the manufacturer of the airframe and where known and based on photographic evidence, any visible cockpit colours.

At the present point, although the information thus far does suggest that the use of 66 predominated in non-Messerschmitt built airframes, this could well change as I work through my documents and numerous Messerschmitt & 109E files.

As for Teumer's 109E at the RAF Museum, the cockpit has retained its original 02 finish.

HTH

Dave W.

[Stona]

Well I recognise and respect the opinions expressed by Dave Wadman above.

I'm actually relieved that my post more or less reflects exactly what he says :)

Cheers

Steve

[seawinder]

Well I recognise and respect the opinions expressed by Dave Wadman above.

I'm actually relieved that my post more or less reflects exactly what he says :)/>

Cheers

Steve

Yes -- not sure with what or whom he's disagreeing.

[Andre]

Of course, depending on the black and white film used (isochromatic, orthochromatic, whatnot), RLM02 could conceivably show up as quite dark.

Cheers,

Andre

[bigjugs]

Of course, depending on the black and white film used (isochromatic, orthochromatic, whatnot), RLM02 could conceivably show up as quite dark.

Cheers,

Andre

No it does not.

[Andre]

No it does not.

I've seen lots of b&w pics where yellow shows up as a dark color.

But hey, you don't have to believe me if you don't want to.

Cheers,

Andre

[Stona]

I've seen lots of b&w pics where yellow shows up as a dark color.

But RLM 02 is not yellow :)

I wpould describe it (always tricky verbally) as a greenish grey.

Steve

Edited March 2, 2013 by Stona

[Andre]

But RLM 02 is not yellow :)/>

Of course. But the point was not that RLM02 is yellow, the point was that on some types of B&W films used at the time light colors tend to show up as dark and vice versa.

For instance:

Prior to the introduction of the Type B night roundel, aircraft used on night operations had the white overpainted with the prevailing camouflage colour which was usually PC.10 or black. Due to the effect of orthochromatic film - the most widely available film during the first World War - rendering the blue very pale, and the red very dark in photographs, historians in the 1950s and 1960s incorrectly believed a white ring roundel had been used on home defence aircraft.

Regards

Andre

[Stona]

Of course. But the point was not that RLM02 is yellow, the point was that on some types of B&W films used at the time light colors tend to show up as dark and vice versa.

For instance:

Regards

Andre

No,it's not as simple as that. Orthochromatic film (which is what you are referring to) is insensitive to red light. A grey colour will still appear grey,it's not about the eye's perception of "light" and "dark" colours.

If you take a photograph with panchromatic film but remove the red frequencies with a filter (cyan should work) you will achieve a similar effect.

I work with light,not film,for a living and a photographer could probably explain it better.

Cheers

Steve