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Foreign F86 in 1/48


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This thread needs a tidy up!

 

I think it's important to understand that what folks are mainly interested in is the basic airframe configuration: therefore it's fair to say that an F-40 wing without extension is essentially the same as the Sabre 6. That makes it easier for people to understand and give them a better chance of modelling that variant. If you want to be really pedantic, there are panels peculiar to the F-86F-35 and F-40 that mean you'd have to fill them when backdating an 'F-40' kit to a whatever else. It can become a rabbit hole and if we go into all the differences in panel lines, vents, exhausts and so on (and include the various mods required to remove the four main differences on TACAN-equipped F-86F-40s for example), we'd be here a long time and lose a lot of people along the way.

 

Slats too can be a nightmare. Early aircraft had a slat lock; most didn't but F-86Hs could be pinned shut on the ground. On the basis that it's an "in or out" job then that one should be a modellers preference.

 

A note on designations.

 

Sabre 2s supplied to Greece and Turkey with the 6-3 wing appear to have been referred to as "F-86E(M)" but the aircraft record cards do not reflect that: initially they are recorded as "Sabre F-86E" and later "Sabre 2". The Greeks and Turks called them "F-86E" or "Sabre".

 

The RAF used the service designations "Sabre Mk.2" or "Sabre Mk.4" on its Canadair Sabre 2  and 4 aircraft. These were all procured via US overseas aid and so were property of the US Government. The official designation should really have been "F. Mk.4" etc but doesn't seem to have been widely taken up.

 

When retired by the RAF and modified with the '6-3' wing for delivery elsewhere (Italy, Yugoslavia) these machines were referred to as F-86E(M). Some had been delivered with the 6-3 wing; some modified in RAF service and some modified after RAF service by civilian contractors such as Airwork and Aviation Traders. Though they wore "US Air Force" markings upon re-delivery from the RAF back to the USAF, their RCAF serial numbers were applied rather than unique USAF serial numbers. None seems to have been accounted for in the same way as USAF machines and the designation "F-86E(M)" seems to have been unofficial in this case. No Sabre 2s were reworked ex-RAF with the 6-3 wing.

 

There were actually two batches of USAF serial numbers applied to Canadair Sabres. S/n 52-2833 thru 52-2892 (60 machines) were procured primarily for service in Korea and were designated "F-86E-6". I have seen these aircraft referred to as "F-86E-6 (CAN)" or similar, but that does not seem to be recorded officially. All went through the NAA Fresno line prior to USAF acceptance in order to incorporate Tech Order modifications etc and were considered analogous to the F-86E-1 and -5.

 

A second batch of USAF serial numbers running 52-10177 thru 52-10236 (60 machines) was allotted to Canadair Sabres designated "F-86E" by the USAF. These aircraft were not accounted for by the USAF and it is assumed that the serial numbers were allotted to RAF Sabre 4s being procured for Fighter Command in the UK. As such they initially would have been purchased outright rather than being part of offshore aid (which was only available for fighter-bombers at that time). Later they were absorbed into the revised US-UK agreement and thereafter considered loan aid.

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3 minutes ago, Nathant said:

Not even for a Luftwaffe Mk. 6 using above pictured decals?

 

You can but you'd need a few minor mods. The wingtips are the biggest change to make; changes to vents, scoops and panels are required to make it 100% correct but none is too difficult.

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17 hours ago, mawz said:


This is not correct, the US acquired Canadair-built Mk4's on RAF retirement and called them F-86E(M)'s, All but 10 Mk4's were delivered to the RAF, 10 went to the RCAF directly (the RCAF also had loaners from the RAF while waiting for Sabre 5 deliveries to make it to Europe). The F-86E(M)'s were all being refurbished and provided as military assistance and not operated by the USAF except for ferry flights to the new owners.

The F-86E-CAN's were Sabre Mk2's, of which the USAF received 60 new build units, the only Canadair Sabres the USAF ever officially had on strength.

 

It is correct.  The Mk.2 & Mk.4 were interchangeable with the F-86E.  Same engine, same systems, same instruments, same everything.  The only difference was where it was built.

Edited by Illu
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14 minutes ago, Illu said:

 

It is correct.  The Mk.2 & Mk.4 were interchangeable with the F-86E.  Same engine, same systems, same instruments, same everything.  The only difference was where it was built.

But the Mk2 and Mk4 are not mutually interchangeable.

The first 20 Mk2's were F-86A's except for the engine with the remainder of Mk2 production actually a mix of F-86A and F-86E features. to model a Sabre 2 you really need an F-86A windscreen on an F-86E airframe for an airframe from unit 21 onwards, for the first 20 you need an F-86A model with the original stab.

While the Mk4 was close to a later production F-86E.

Edited by mawz
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Hi all,

 

I ordered these items. Please provide feedbacks.  I am not 1000000000% anal on rivets or panel lines but reasonable accuracy.  However I am very concerned if the wings are warped. Resin parts are known for warpage if it is a big piece. Dai 

 

s-l960.jpg

 

s-l960 (1).jpg

 

s-l1600.jpg

 

s-l1600 (1).jpg

Edited by dai phan
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I have the Red Roo set and it's a lovely casting; mine has no warping whatsoever. But even if resin is warped, it can be straightened out easily by pouring boiling (or very hot) water over it and gently persuading it back into shape. I usually do this on the kitchen sink so that I can use the straight edge of the sink as the datum for straightness. But I'd be surprised if you need to.

 

One thing to note: F-86As, early F-86Es etc had flush wingtip nav lights: the wing as-modelled in the Red Roos set is an F-86F wing with the 'pimple' nav lights. It's no major deal to backdate to flush-mounted nav lights but you'll kick yourself if you don't do it (assuming you need to, depending on what you are building).

 

 

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3 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

I have the Red Roo set and it's a lovely casting; mine has no warping whatsoever. But even if resin is warped, it can be straightened out easily by pouring boiling (or very hot) water over it and gently persuading it back into shape. I usually do this on the kitchen sink so that I can use the straight edge of the sink as the datum for straightness. But I'd be surprised if you need to.

 

One thing to note: F-86As, early F-86Es etc had flush wingtip nav lights: the wing as-modelled in the Red Roos set is an F-86F wing with the 'pimple' nav lights. It's no major deal to backdate to flush-mounted nav lights but you'll kick yourself if you don't do it (assuming you need to, depending on what you are building).

 

 

 By using this wing set, what sets of decals can I use? I really want to do the German or Canada scheme. Dai

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1 hour ago, dai phan said:

 By using this wing set, what sets of decals can I use? I really want to do the German or Canada scheme. Dai

to do a Canadian or German Sabre 6 you need a 'slatted 6-3 wing';  you have purchased a 'narrow chord slatted wing' applicable to the RAF Sabre 4.

 

Tony

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2 hours ago, Snowbird3a said:

to do a Canadian or German Sabre 6 you need a 'slatted 6-3 wing';  you have purchased a 'narrow chord slatted wing' applicable to the RAF Sabre 4.

 

Tony

Hi Tony,

 

As far as I understand there is NO kits of Mk6 that gives you 6-3 with slats right? Dai 

 

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Hi all,

 

Now I come to think about it. There are plenty of decals available for German and RCAF but in reality, no OOB  kit can be used. For some OOB is close enough but for me with somewhat leaning to accuracy that will not fly for me. Dai 

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2 minutes ago, dai phan said:

Hi Tony,

 

As far as I understand there is NO kits of Mk6 that gives you 6-3 with slats right? Dai 

 

certain Hasegawa kits of the F-86F-40 ;   one of the releases gives you the wingtips  in resin.   Five seconds with a razor saw and remove the extended tips.   Instant Sabre 6 wing !!!

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52 minutes ago, Snowbird3a said:

certain Hasegawa kits of the F-86F-40 ;   one of the releases gives you the wingtips  in resin.   Five seconds with a razor saw and remove the extended tips.   Instant Sabre 6 wing !!!

Then Hasegawa F-86F-40 with resin wing tips allows me to do German and Canadian? This one requires you you to chop off the length and add resin wing tips, Is this the one I need to buy? I l look at the instructions on Scalemates and looks like the F-40 has molded in slats. I am so sorry to be so naieve in the subject ! Dai 

Canadair Sabre Mk.6 `Black Tulip´, Hasegawa 09532 (2004) (scalemates.com)

s-l960 (2).jpg

Edited by dai phan
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On 11/16/2023 at 8:51 PM, Illu said:

The Canadair Mk. 5 had the 6-3 hard wing, and  Mk.6 had a 6-3 wing with slats, unlike any other variant of the Sabre, and no one has ever made a kit of it.   You can graft the slatted leading edge from a Revell F-86D without too much trouble though.

So the Hasegawa F-40 with this slatted kit will allow me to do German or RCAF right? With chopped off tip and add resin tips. Dai 

 

s-l1600 (3).jpg

 

s-l960 (3).jpg

 

s-l960 (4).jpg

 

Edited by dai phan
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OK gang,

 

I have read over and over and this is what I think I need to do German or RACAF with the decals shown:

 

1. Buy the Hasegawa F-40 with the resin wing tips.

2. Cut off a section of the wing as directed then add the resin wing tips.

3. Buy the KSAL slat set designed for the F-40. I believe F-40 kit has molded in slats. 

 

Dai 

 

s-l1600 (3).jpg

s-l960 (2).jpg

Edited by dai phan
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YES, now you have it !! 

 

 Now, any Sabre 6 after mid 1958 had small 'sugar' scoops added on the aft section lower intakes

they can be made easily as I believe they are OOP from AMS Resin

 

7SYHPaK.jpg

 

 

Tony

Edited by Snowbird3a
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Hi all,

 

OK, I have done some research and this is what I know...

 

1. Hasegawa F-30 has the non slat 6-3 wings.

2. Hasegawa F-40 has enlongated 6-3 wings with slats molded in.

3. Hasegawa MK6 has the F-40 wings with resin wing tips that modelers has to shorten the span then add the tips. 

 

Now comes the mystery. I ordered a MK 5 Italian Aerobatic Team and the photo on Ebay shows resin wing tips. This leads me to believe this kit has F-40 wings with resin inserts (resin inserts mean the wings have to be chopped off). But reviews online indicates the kit does NOT have any inserts and the wing is the non slat 6-3 ! I have asked the seller to send me a photo of the wings. Likely the kit is the MK6 with wrong boxing? 

 

Regarding the fuse, I may scratch build the air scoops but I will not rescribe any panel lines. I am just bad at this. I think the correct wing is the most important in doing export models. Dai 

 

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5 hours ago, dai phan said:

I found this useful illustration on the Net. The top left can be applicable to the Red Roo wing set. Others can be ultilized from the F-40 with the inserts if Mk.6 is desired. Dai

 

the Italian Air Force Hasegawa kit comes with the 6-3 hard edge wing with wing fence.   It can make a nice late Mk4,  a Mk 5 (serials 23001-23370), or an early Mk6 (23371-23610 before retro fitted with slatted leading edge; no sugar scoops needed).

 

or use the resin slat conversion to do a proper Sabre 6

 

Tony

Edited by Snowbird3a
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4 hours ago, Snowbird3a said:

the Italian Air Force Hasegawa kit comes with the 6-3 hard edge wing with wing fence.   It can make a nice late Mk4,  a Mk 5 (serials 23001-23370), or an early Mk6 (23371-23610 before retro fitted with slatted leading edge; no sugar scoops needed).

 

or use the resin slat conversion to do a proper Sabre 6

 

Tony

Thank you Tony. So to recap and please correct:

 

1. Use F-40 wings, shorten the chord, add resin tips = MK 6 with slats retracted.

2. Use F-30 wings, add the slats = MK 6 with slats extended.

 

Dai 

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1 hour ago, dai phan said:

Thank you Tony. So to recap and please correct:

 

1. Use F-40 wings, shorten the chord, add resin tips = MK 6 with slats retracted.

2. Use F-30 wings, add the slats = MK 6 with slats extended.

 

Dai 

do NOT shorten the chord of the -40 wing; you shorten the SPAN by removing the extended tips

 

everything else is good

 

cheers, Tony

 

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5 hours ago, Snowbird3a said:

do NOT shorten the chord of the -40 wing; you shorten the SPAN by removing the extended tips

 

everything else is good

 

cheers, Tony

 

Yes it was a mistake of word on my part. So if one wants a MK 6 wings with slats RETRACTED, then F-40 wings with reduced span and resin tips will do. if one wants slats EXTENDED then use 6-3 wings (F-30) then add the slats and that is what I will do. Dai

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