B-25 Mitchell questions

[Gábor Tóth]

Hi Folks,

I'm building an AM B-25 B. But have no photos of the early style tail gun post. The instructions tell (italeri reboxing) that twin ,5 brownings were installed under the cut plexi window. They supply real guns, not dummy ones that had been used on Doolitle raiders. Is that possible? If yes, how diid it looked like?

I'm also short of flap photos. I was planning to drop them into take-off position, but have no photos of the mechanism, wing surface and flap shape.

I have the Walk around book, some other ones.

Can anyone help?

[DonSS3]

While this is a B-25J, you may find some useful photos here:

http://s20.photobucket.com/albums/b229/DDo...J%20Walkaround/

The tail guns on the Doolittle bombers were just cut-off broomsticks. You could probably just use some appropriately sized sprue.

[Matt Roberts]

There were numerous field mods totail guns in first generation Mitchells (B-25B thru B-25G) they ranged from none, fakes (Doolittle raiders kit which had the broomsticks, included in the 'B' along with a tail cone) to single guns without any canopy above the gunner, where the gunner lay prone with one gun firing out of a cut out tail cone (The Dirty Dora version of the C/D kit) to a similar looking BUT NOT IDENTICAL tail gin position to the second generation Mitchell (B-25H & J) which had a narrower greenouse and one or two .50s (the Accurate B-25G). These were all field mods or depot level changes and not factory spec from North American.

The single gun prone required you to cut the twin mount in half and then if I remember there was a mount that you glued to the back end of the fuselage and then you had to cut the tail cone to give the opening for the mount wich fired only to the rear and below the fuselage.

Here are the scans from the Accurate site for the Mitchell instruction sheets - I just remembered that these existed AFTER typing this all out. It doesn't look like they have the 'G' sheet in there. Look at sheet 15 (Step 12) in the Doolittle B instructions for the early prone and fake tail guns

C/D - http://www.accurate-miniatures.com/library/3431.pdf

B - http://www.accurate-miniatures.com/library/3430.pdf

Just beware these are large PDF downloads (6-7MB)

HTH

Matt

Edited May 4, 2007 by Matt Roberts

[Gábor Tóth]

Dear Don!

Thanks for the links!

Dear Matt!

Thank You for the details. I mistyped the version, my future model will be a B-25D, USAAF 17th RS, 71st TRG, Linsayen (Philippines) May 1945, called 'Mitch the witch'. The part is a twin gun set.

It is also controversial that the painting guide shows the engine nacelles have a red ring on their front, while the box art doesn't...

Can I find some profiles of this unit somewhere?

BR

Gábor

[don f]

Dear Don!

Thanks for the links!

Dear Matt!

Thank You for the details. I mistyped the version, my future model will be a B-25D, USAAF 17th RS, 71st TRG, Linsayen (Philippines) May 1945, called 'Mitch the witch'. The part is a twin gun set.

It is also controversial that the painting guide shows the engine nacelles have a red ring on their front, while the box art doesn't...

Can I find some profiles of this unit somewhere?

BR

Gábor

Gábor,

If you are interested in making the modifications to the kit to better represent the aircraft, here's some more info about "Mitch the Witch":

Somewhere the s/n was listed as 42-97293 - not a B-25D s/n. I don't recall what the decal sheet has. The s/n number for this aircraft was 42-87293, making her a B-25D-25 according to the lists of serial numbers. This aircraft was modified as a B-25-D2. She served with the 17 Recon Sqdn., 5AF. It is reported that she survived the war to end up scrapped on some Pacific atoll. One photo shows her marked with 172 mission markers! She probably flew many more.

The D2 used late model C and D versions as a basis. These aircraft were fitted with side gun packs, the waist bay windows and an enclosed tail gunner's position. “Mitch the Witch†was one of these aircraft.

The following, while not exactly correct, will allow you to modify the kit with the least effort to represent “Mitch the Witchâ€. Install the kit bombardier's compartment clear parts. Add an extra gun to the nose – totaling two fixed and one flex. She did not appear to have the greenhouse painted over.

Add the kit side gun packs (both sides). Refine the shape of the fairings if desired.

Use the enclosed rear gunner’s clear part from the kit with a single .50 MG in opening (in place of the scanning blister). Remove the rear pane of the kit clear part. The gunner had a very clear view of where the aircraft had been.

Do not install the bottom turret.

Rob the waist windows from a Monogram B-25 kit. (If you are particular, this is not correct as the bay windows fitted with the Depot mod had a different shape. But it is quick, although perhaps not cheap to use the Monogram kit). Take note that these bay windows were not staggered. Same position both sides.

Add a camera blister to the rear fuselage underside. One image of Mitch shows the shape to be rather like the fairing covering the skid bumper, but with a flattened rear face. Use of these rear facing cameras was not uncommon to record strike results.

If you want to make the effort to create a more accurate conversion, you will need to make new waist windows of the correct shape, a new rear gunner’s canopy and fairing, and new side gun packs of the correct shape. These are in addition to the fixes for the kit, already well covered in other articles and websites.

Have fun making all those M40 parafrags! Or use the kit 500 lb. GP's.

Don

P.S. - Unlikely that any of the Pacific B-25 strafers flew without the armor installed for the pilots and bombardiers. The kit does not provide any of the armor plating. Same for the armored bulkhead in the rear fuselage just aft of the upper turret. You can add these missing items with 0.010" sheet plastic.

[Gábor Tóth]

Dear Don,

Thank You for Your answer, it's quite detailed!. To be honest, I have to have a look on that waist gunner position, before going into modification. If it is "only a window with a gun plugged into" and not that waist gun position as builtfor J versions, it seems possible to build it.

Could You name the references, where I can see photos of 'Mitch'? I have some books.

I will spend the next 4 days in Belfast, but after that I will start the real work...

Unfortunately, I have little time - have to finish it till August - so in case of difficult, time consuming modifications needed for 'mitch' I will be forced build an other option, if that is more simple, even if Mitch is my favourite from the kit options.

The second choice would be a B-25C, 488th BS, 340BG, Sicily, 1943. That is a Sand-Olive Drab- Neutral grey camo bird, without tail gun section, but with bottom gun turret.

I'll try to find photos and decide next weekend.

Thank You,

Gábor

[don f]

Could You name the references, where I can see photos of 'Mitch'? I have some books.

The second choice would be a B-25C, 488th BS, 340BG, Sicily, 1943. That is a Sand-Olive Drab- Neutral grey camo bird, without tail gun section, but with bottom gun turret.

I'll try to find photos and decide next weekend.

Gábor,

Check pages 88 & 91 of Jerry Scutt's "B-25 Mitchell at War" for a couple of very good images of "Mitch the Witch".

Page 46 of the same book also has a couple of images that show clearly how the field modifications of 12BG B-25C/D's were incorporated into the D2. The D2 and similar G-12 were interim models, standing between the field modified aircraft and the later, improved B-25H/J models. The 12BG B-25C/D modifications included removal of the bottom turret, cutting openings in the radio operator's compartment for waist guns and the addition of a tail gun position. The standard "stateside" armament was found inadequate in the face of determined Axis fighter opposition. The configuration of the modifications varied. Best to use an image of your subject aircraft if you can find one.

Don

[Gábor Tóth]

Dear Don,

Unfortunately, I don't have the book. I'll ask around my fellows in Hungary, wether any of them bought it.

"Page 46 of the same book also has a couple of images that show clearly how the field modifications of 12BG B-25C/D's were incorporated into the D2. The D2 and similar G-12 were interim models, standing between the field modified aircraft and the later, improved B-25H/J models. The 12BG B-25C/D modifications included removal of the bottom turret, cutting openings in the radio operator's compartment for waist guns and the addition of a tail gun position. "

I'll try to find images, even on other aircraft that might have had the same modification.

" The standard "stateside" armament was found inadequate in the face of determined Axis fighter opposition. The configuration of the modifications varied. Best to use an image of your subject aircraft if you can find one.

"

Do You mean the gun packs on the fuselage sides under the cocpit windows?

Thanks,

Gábor

[don f]

" The standard "stateside" armament was found inadequate in the face of determined Axis fighter opposition. The configuration of the modifications varied. Best to use an image of your subject aircraft if you can find one.

"

Do You mean the gun packs on the fuselage sides under the cocpit windows?

Gábor

The factory installed armament of a B-25C/D was a twin gun top turret, a twin gun, remotely sighted lower turret and various fixed and flexible guns installed in the bombardier's compartment ranging from a single .30 cal. "peashooter" in early B-25C/D's to a pair of fixed .50 cal. plus one flex .50 cal. MG in later versions of the B-25C/D. This was the so-called "stateside" armament. The remotely sighted lower turret was quickly removed in theater. Here's a site that has good images of 321BG aircraft modified with waist and tail guns:

http://www.warwingsart.com/12thAirForce/sp...eraircraft.html

The strafer side gun packages were not installed in these MTO B-25C/D's.

Don

[Gábor Tóth]

Dear Don,

Now that's clear with the waist guns. Thanks for the link, I couldn't find pictures on the net of this type of waist gun openings. I'll check my books (warbird tech, D&S, Walk around, In action) for some detailed shots next weekend

The only question remained is the red engine cowling ring.

Now I should really get up and prepare my flight...

Thanks for Your help,

Best regards,

Gábor

[Joseph Rybicki]

Which airplane have you decided on building?

My grandfather was the copilot of Mitch the Witch (I) during WWII.

I may be able to dig up some photos.

[don f]

Which airplane have you decided on building?

My grandfather was the copilot of Mitch the Witch (I) during WWII.

I may be able to dig up some photos.

Joseph,

Please do post any of the photos that you can find. I'm sure that your grandfather has quite a story to tell.

Don

[gmat]

Gabor,

If you can, look for WWII Pacific War Eagles, by Jeffery Ethell and Warren Bodie. Pages 126, 127, and 129 have color pictures of the 17th RS's B-25s in color. Unfortunately, they are all J models. 423310 (429310?) has natural metal cowling lips and the others have OD cowlings. The upper part of the rudder, painted a bright green in some profiles and in the painted warbird is more of a faded OD. Yet the inside of the rudder, and indeed the rest of the same aircraft, is a darker olive drab. I believe that these photos were taken after the squadron helped stop a Japanese naval force that was bombarding the US landings at San Jose on Mindoro island. They lost 3 out of 13 B-25s. I suspect more were damaged.

So that there may not have been many D models left. The latter info is from Ken Rust's 5th Air Force Story. In the markings section, he mentions only the white trim on the lower tail.

It is not proof of a red cowling trim, but it doesn't positively deny it.

Best wishes,

Grant.

[Phil marchese]

Gábor,

If you are interested in making the modifications to the kit to better represent the aircraft, here's some more info about "Mitch the Witch":

Somewhere the s/n was listed as 42-97293 - not a B-25D s/n. I don't recall what the decal sheet has. The s/n number for this aircraft was 42-87293, making her a B-25D-25 according to the lists of serial numbers. This aircraft was modified as a B-25-D2. She served with the 17 Recon Sqdn., 5AF. It is reported that she survived the war to end up scrapped on some Pacific atoll. One photo shows her marked with 172 mission markers! She probably flew many more.

The D2 used late model C and D versions as a basis. These aircraft were fitted with side gun packs, the waist bay windows and an enclosed tail gunner's position. “Mitch the Witch†was one of these aircraft.

The following, while not exactly correct, will allow you to modify the kit with the least effort to represent “Mitch the Witchâ€. Install the kit bombardier's compartment clear parts. Add an extra gun to the nose – totaling two fixed and one flex. She did not appear to have the greenhouse painted over.

Add the kit side gun packs (both sides). Refine the shape of the fairings if desired.

Use the enclosed rear gunner’s clear part from the kit with a single .50 MG in opening (in place of the scanning blister). Remove the rear pane of the kit clear part. The gunner had a very clear view of where the aircraft had been.

Do not install the bottom turret.

Rob the waist windows from a Monogram B-25 kit. (If you are particular, this is not correct as the bay windows fitted with the Depot mod had a different shape. But it is quick, although perhaps not cheap to use the Monogram kit). Take note that these bay windows were not staggered. Same position both sides.

Add a camera blister to the rear fuselage underside. One image of Mitch shows the shape to be rather like the fairing covering the skid bumper, but with a flattened rear face. Use of these rear facing cameras was not uncommon to record strike results.

If you want to make the effort to create a more accurate conversion, you will need to make new waist windows of the correct shape, a new rear gunner’s canopy and fairing, and new side gun packs of the correct shape. These are in addition to the fixes for the kit, already well covered in other articles and websites.

Have fun making all those M40 parafrags! Or use the kit 500 lb. GP's.

Don

P.S. - Unlikely that any of the Pacific B-25 strafers flew without the armor installed for the pilots and bombardiers. The kit does not provide any of the armor plating. Same for the armored bulkhead in the rear fuselage just aft of the upper turret. You can add these missing items with 0.010" sheet plastic.

Don, has the answer substantially correct was it applies to Mitch the Witch ( the s/n would begin 42-87XXx , not 9 and the RCN on the tail would thus start 287XXX.

The MTO had a different tail mod in early 1943 which came from WR GA with the 321 BG and replicated at Sidi Ahmen for 175-200 other MTO B-25C/D. The 7th /13 Afs each had there own changes to the NAA D2 designed tail as did the USMC PBJ-1D. The D2 changes were enventually put in production on the NA100 in NAA-K from circa Nov 43 to March 44, overlapping with NA-108 J series production from Dec 1943. Many of the above mentioned tail mods are also correct depening on the time or place.

Phil Marchese All rights reserved 1984/1987