Sabre reference needed

[Fiddler]

I have some sort of Sabre fever last weeks and ordered me some Special Hobby kits. To be precisely the F-86H and F-86L. Now I wanted to do the 50th FBW jet but the decals are nowhere near correct for that machine, and seemingly the boxart is the only valid option for this aircraft due to the wing included in the kit.

Not so bad but I was just looking around for some nice F-86H reference and I bumped on this one:

A cool colorfull easy to make homemade decals for Hog but from the 312th FDW. I never heard of this wing so went on to google for that... but no succes. I want to know if that's an operational unit, since I need to figure out what kind of wing was on that aircraft. I guess that all Hogs were converted to the F-40 wing before they transferred to the ANG? (I want to use the kit's wing as is). If it is an operational unit, it would be cool if someone had info about the unit's history?

And for the F-86L I found this nice sideview at cybermodeling through Duncan's website:

Now any kind of information and hopefully even pictures about these aircraft would be so nice!

Thanks in advance

Tom

(edit: typos)

Edited December 20, 2007 by Fiddler

[jinxx1]

I have some sort of Sabre fever last weeks and ordered me some Special Hobby kits. To be precisely the F-86H and F-86L. Now I wanted to do the 50th FBW jet but the decals are nowhere near correct for that machine, and seemingly the boxart is the only valid option for this aircraft due to the wing included in the kit.

Not so bad but I was just looking around for some nice F-86H reference and I bumped on this one:

A cool colorfull easy to make homemade decals for Hog but from the 312th FDW. I never heard of this wing so went on to google for that... but no succes. I want to know if that's an operational unit, since I need to figure out what kind of wing was on that aircraft. I guess that all Hogs were converted to the F-40 wing before they transferred to the ANG? (I want to use the kit's wing as is). If it is an operational unit, it would be cool if someone had info about the unit's history?

Now any kind of information and hopefully even pictures about these aircraft would be so nice!

Thanks in advance

Tom

(edit: typos)

First off I would recommend Air Force Legends Number 212 North American F-86H Sabre "Hog" by Earl Berlins. It is a great single source.

A note on F-86H wings: The early Hs had a 39' 1" "hard wing" with wing fences. The later ones had the same wing with slats. The wing had the same dimensions and area either way. The later wing is the one refered to as the "F-86F-40 wing" (also used on the F-86L) and most of the earlier hard winged aircraft were converted to the slatted wing while still in active service.

The 312th was a USAF wing based at Cannon AFB and operated the Hog from Oct, 1954 until Mar 1957. The profile is a little off in that the aircraft was fitted with slatted wings by the time it was in those markings.

.

The balance of the wing's aircraft had a different style of markings:

The Lima was with the 120th FIS, CO-ANG and I think the profile matches this photo:

[tango35]

Hello,

maybe you are looking for a trainer version ?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v637/tango35/FT-86-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v637/tango35/FT-86-2.jpg

Thomas

[Fiddler]

Oh cool,

I didn't expect such a quick reply

Thanks for the explanation, it was realy helpfull, but some piece of the text between the two hog pictures (quoted below) was something I don't quite understand.

The balance of the wing's aircraft had a different style of markings:

Seeing the second picture I knew I saw these markings before (on the same profile site where I found FU-272) and there was indeed a profile of that aircraft. I noted that both aircraft belong to the same 312th FDW. After that I was thinking that you might want to say that it was the sole squadron of the wing wearing these markings and that other squads looked like the 2nd picture or did I got you wrong?

By the way, the second picture is one of the early Hogs with the .50 cal 6 pack.

cool pictures and helps a lot for completing these 2 jets in the colors I like :blink:

P.S. The twinseater is a nice one to but that'll be quite some scratchbuild effort to, I guess. Some days ago, I saw a dual Sabre model converted from a normal Sabre. It was at the Readers Model Gallery at Duncan's site and it looked stunning. Here is the link

Greetings

[jinxx1]

Oh cool,

I didn't expect such a quick reply ;)

Thanks for the explanation, it was realy helpfull, but some piece of the text between the two hog pictures (quoted below) was something I don't quite understand.

Seeing the second picture I knew I saw these markings before (on the same profile site where I found FU-272) and there was indeed a profile of that aircraft. I noted that both aircraft belong to the same 312th FDW. After that I was thinking that you might want to say that it was the sole squadron of the wing wearing these markings and that other squads looked like the 2nd picture or did I got you wrong?

Greetings

I was not too clear in my verbage. The colors on the first airplane seem to be only for the wing commander's bird. The rest of the wing had markings like the second photo. From what I can find, the 386th FBS had a red tail band (and nose flash) wth white lightning bolts and trim. The 387th FBS was yellow with white bolts (and trim) and the 388th was green with black bolts (and trim). The CO's bird was probably just the best way to represent the squadron colors, or maybe just a scheme for a gunnery meet. One never can be sure.

[Aggressor Supporter]

This is probably the most colorful Sabre I've ever seen. Pretty neat.

[Fiddler]

Owkeey, well, there are 2 birds having the same paint as you can see the tail of a Hog behind FU-272 sporting the same markings. so I think we can exclude a boss bird, or did they have more then one at that time? I presume not... Maybe it's like you say a Gunnery Meet and the wing is participating with all 3 squadrons.

Hmm, and on another note, while searching for more knowledge about Cannon (Clovis) AFB, I stumbled across wikipedia and that stated that 486th had red squad colors, but the 87th and 88th had blue and yellow respectively. Only after transitioning to the Super Sabre, they received another squad adding a green color...

Thanks again for the info and I shall resume my quest for the late Sabres tomorrow

[jinxx1]

Owkeey, well, there are 2 birds having the same paint as you can see the tail of a Hog behind FU-272 sporting the same markings. so I think we can exclude a boss bird, or did they have more then one at that time? I presume not... Maybe it's like you say a Gunnery Meet and the wing is participating with all 3 squadrons.

Hmm, and on another note, while searching for more knowledge about Cannon (Clovis) AFB, I stumbled across wikipedia and that stated that 486th had red squad colors, but the 87th and 88th had blue and yellow respectively. Only after transitioning to the Super Sabre, they received another squad adding a green color...

Thanks again for the info and I shall resume my quest for the late Sabres tomorrow :)

Good catch. There is a possibility thet the CO's bird, XO's bird and maybe others had that scheme. Re-reading unit histories the 312th FBW consisted of the 312th FBG and the 474th FBG. The 474th FBG was attached to the 312th FBW from 1954 until 1957. So, the 312th FBW had both the 312th FBG (with the 386th, 387th, 388th FBSs) and the 474th FBG (with the 428th, 429th and 430th FBSs) attached. I was not aware of that, just making the fatal error of assuming that the 312th FBW contatined only the three squadrons and not two groups with three squadrons each. (Confused yet? Well I am. The 450th FDW had a similar structure with the 322nd FDG and 450th FDG making up the 450th FDW.) The 474th FBG used cheverons on a solid color band, like the one displayed at Pima (photo below) and the 312th FBG used the lighning bolts, soooo, it is possible that the actual 312th FBW aircraft (the wing Honchos) had a third color scheme to represent all six squadrons and two groups under the wing command. Or they were painted for some special event like a gunnery meet, or maybe wing markings changed.

Red, Blue and yellow would make sense with three squadrons. That seems to be the norm, but the reference I have found (scant as it is) shows red, yellow and green. That is probably the reason for red, yellow and green tail on 1272. If those colors are indeed correct. I would kill for some color shots.

One final thing: The 312th is sometimes identified as the 312th Fighter Day Wing, yet the official source only read 312th Fighter Bomber Wing. Yet I have seen a 312th Fighter Day Wing patch!

Edited December 21, 2007 by jinxx1

[afspret]

I just got the 1/72 scale F-86K and saw it has seperate tiny little PE vortex generators that are suppose to go on the horizontal tail. Is it worth it to try and glue them on (and probably loose a couple in the process) or is it better just forget about them?

[Fiddler]

Well, depends on how realistic you want to make your model I guess :D and depends if you have to place decals over them or not...

On my F-86L I got in the mail yesterday I noticed that I had to glue no less then 76!!!!!! of the vortex generators on my kit... ahum... This means per elevator, you have 8 small ones and 24 big ones, and then on each side of the fuselage you have to put 6 of the bigger ones. I fell from my chair when realizing it :(

I must say the photo etch parts are extremely nicely done, with prepainted IP, sideconsoles and seatbelts. Also the droptank vertical fins are also in PE

[afspret]

I'm not a real stickler for fiddley details, and its not like I'm ever going to enter it into a contest or anything like that. Heck, as far as I'm concerned, as long as it "looks like a duck, sounds like a duck and flys like a duck" then I'm happy. After all, I build to relax and take my mind off other things, like my PITA job.

I might give it a shot and see what happens

[ChesBayCruiser]

I know I come late to this party, but I see that jinxx1 posted a picture of FU-021, an F-86H with the 386th FBS based at Clovis AFB. Just thought I'd add a bit more.

My dad was a pilot with the 386th. Here's a photo of my dad up on the wing of FU-021 taken by my mom on Armed Forces Day 1955, as he explains the cockpit to visitors.

The color photo was taken by my dad's Flight Leader, Bill Star (father of John who runs the website fabulousrocketeers.com). It shows elements of the 386th Squadron, and also one marked with the fellow tail-feathers of the 388th FBS. (The 387th wore blue.) FU-021 can be seen in the foreground.

FYI...the Wing Commander's jet had the same markings, but used stripes of red, yellow and blue instead of the solid markings, as well as the commonly seen diagonal slash (all three colors) on the fuselage behind the cockpit

[Steve jahn]

Just found this photo

http://www.flickr.com/photos/skyhawkpc/5537984134/