Question for Canadian Hurrican experten

[gmat]

I've read that the Canadian Mk X, XI and XII had Packard Merlin 28 or 29 engines. Is this the same as the Packard V- 1650? And is the Packard V-1650 the same as the Merlin Mk XX? If so, did they extend the nose for the Hurricane Mk X? I've seen references in the Frank book that the Mk X and Mk XI should be a the same as a Hurricane Mk I. The Mk XII should be the same as the Hurricane Mk II.

Also what is a good replacement prop hub to make the Canadian Hurricane without the spinner? 1/72. If possible, I'd like to rob one from a kit like the P-47 or B-17. They have extra prop bosses or propellors.

Thank you for any help,

Best wishes,

Grant

[Scooby]

I Know in 1/48 Ultracast do a prop hub for Canadian Hurricanes. I'm not sure if it is done in 1/72.

[Edgar]

The Hurricane X was initially equivalent to the Hurricane I, and (first 40) used Merlin III engines, delivered from the U.K., with the next 340 intended to still be Mk.I standard, but most were fitted with the Merlin 29, making them Mark II standard. The XI & XII were also equivalent to the Mk.II. The Merlin 28/29 were the Packard version of the XX, and did have the designation V-1650. Beware sub-types, of the V-1650 designation, though; the -3, -5, -7 were all equivalent to the Merlin 61, with the -9 & -11 same as the Merlin 100, but the -13, -15 & -17 returning to the Merlin 61.

Edgar

[gmat]

Thank you, Edgar.

Is there any chance that it was left up to Canadian Car and Foundry to locally design the modification to adapt the Merlin 29 or did they follow the modifications done by Hawker? I would think not, but one can hope.

Thank you again.

Scooby, I have the Ultracast kit, but was informed at the time that it was only in 1/48th.

Thank you just the same.

Best wishes,

Grant

[Edgar]

According to one source, CCF were just given a set of drawings, and did the rest themselves.

Edgar

[airjiml2]

First off I would take much written on the CCF Hurricanes with a grain of salt. For example...what the heck is a Hurricane XI? No such thing flew with the RCAF, no matter what many references say. I'd love for someone to explain where this designation comes from with primary documents. Maybe the XIs were some of the aircraft Free-Issued back to CCF by the RCAF and later ended up with the RAF? However back to the question.

Hurricane X - Basically a Mk. I with a cut down Battle prop. Eight gun wing, no glare shields. RCAF serials 1351 to 1380. I suggest using an Aeroclub battle prop on these aircraft. (I'm not sure what the prop number is, but if you wish I could look it up.) You can tell the Hurri Xs as they have a little prop boss. None carried spinners. I've never really looked into which Merlins they carried, but I think they were RAF supplied Merlins, as these aircraft were from a RAF production batch with AE, AF and AG serials.

Hurricane XII - Basically a Mk. IIB with the cut down Hamilton Std prop, glare shields, and twelve gun wings. These had Packard Merlin engines. Most didn't have spinners, but some did carry the "Canadian" spinner. This is the big prop boss usually associated with RCAF Hurricanes. RCAF serials 5376 to 5775. These were all on RCAF contracts with CCF.

Easy eh...well not really, you have one more set of aircraft to throw into the mix. The RCAF needed more Hurricanes so they borrowed/took some FAA aircraft from the CCF production line. Serials are BW835 to BW884. These were Sea Hurricanes with the hook and flew in FAA colours. What I think what has tripped up many Hurricane researchers is that the RCAF Hurricane Xs and Sea Hurricanes were sent back to CC&F for conversion to Hurricane XII standard with Packard Merlins, and new props. So you can see both BW*** series and 13** series aircraft flying in XII standard and without looking at the serial you'd never know they were not built as XIIs.

Now how to get an XII in 1/72...I'd use a cut down B-25 prop. You can find them from Quickboost and Aeroclub. For the forward engine area, you could use the front of an Engines and Things or Aeroclub Merlin, or use the parts from the new Revell Lanc that has full Merlins in it.

HTH,

Jim

P.S.: RAF contract Hurricanes built by CCF are a different kettle of fish, and honestly I don't know much about them. The first aircraft were supplied with engines and props, but it is possible that later aircraft were supplied without such refinements which were added in England. Can anyone speak on that issue?

Edited January 28, 2009 by airjiml2

[Cadfael]

IIRC, the Mk XI's were the last 150 or so aircraft of the RAF Mk X contract and issued with RAF serials. The difference between a Mk X and a Mk XI airframe being the fitting of Canadian military equipment vice British. Several Canadian built Hurricanes supplied to the RAF were transferred to the VVS, one artillery spotter conversion has been identified as a Mk XI BW948.

References were also found to a Mk XIB sub-variant which is believed to designate airframes with the Merlin 29 engine installed.

:)

[gmat]

Thank you, Jim and Cadfael,

Very interesting info you've provided. I've looked at your site, Jim. Very nice. Did Canadian Hurricanes serve near Alaska as a backstop against the Japanese? I know some Canadian P-40s did. What are some markings for regular fighter squadrons using Canadian built Hurricanes in Canada?

Thank you again for your help.

Best wishes,

Grant.

[airjiml2]

Did Canadian Hurricanes serve near Alaska as a backstop against the Japanese? I know some Canadian P-40s did.

No only Bolingbrokes and P-40s served in Alaska. The Hurricanes did serve in B.C...which is kinda near Alaska.

What are some markings for regular fighter squadrons using Canadian built Hurricanes in Canada?

They weren't the most exciting aircraft out there. Most only carried the single code letter, though some of the 135 Squ. birds had Bulldog noseart. Sky Decals has a 135 Squ. option on their Hurricane sheet. The Bulldog noseart is nice, but there are some accuracy issues with other parts of the scheme. It is pretty odd to find RCAF Hurricanes with full codes, but here are two Hurricane X's from 128 Squadron with codes:

1351 RA-A

and

1380 RA-S

HTH,

Jim

P.S.: Cadfael - Thanks. That would make sense if that the XIs were for the RAF. There certianly was no such thing with the RCAF.

Edited January 28, 2009 by airjiml2

[Cadfael]

I found a reference to Mk XI serials being BW885 thru BX134.

[gmat]

Thank you again, Jim and Cadfael.

Would the camoflage scheme follow the that of the RAF Hurricanes? Did 128 Squadron apply the aircraft letter to the undersides of the nose? The photos make it hard to determine exactly if the two Hurricanes had the propellor bosses. Where was 128 Squadron based? Is there a book that deals with Canadian Hurricanes?

Thank you very much for your time and effort.

Best wishes,

Grant

[airjiml2]

Grant,

Glad to help.

Would the camoflage scheme follow the that of the RAF Hurricanes?

Probably yes.

Did 128 Squadron apply the aircraft letter to the undersides of the nose?

I'm not 100% sure, but I lean toward no.

The photos make it hard to determine exactly if the two Hurricanes had the propellor bosses.

They are Hurricane Xs, so they have cut down battle props with the short boss. Try Aeroclub P017, but you will need to cut it down. There is a really poor picture here of the X and the XII props. The X has the short flat boss (front Hurricane), the XII (back Hurricane) the more familiar boss:

Props

Where was 128 Squadron based?

Sidney NS and Torbay Nfld.

Is there a book that deals with Canadian Hurricanes?

Nothing really great...mostly RCAF Hurricanes get mentioned in passing. There are some good photos in some of the Larry Milberry books, and RCAF Squadrons and Aircraft has some photos, but nothing Hurricane only. Look for an article later in the year in one of the British modeling magazines.

And Cadfael...none of the serials you listed flew with the RCAF...so the XIs were RAF contract aircraft only.

Jim

[gmat]

Jim,

Thank you. The more I learn, the more questions that I have. By cut down Battle props, I assume you mean Fairy Battle props. How much from the tip? Did the tips retain the same shape as the longer props?

Did the Canadian Hurricanes also have the line painted underneath the codes? And when were the lines removed from Canada based aircraft?

Thank you for your time and effort.

Best wishes,

Grant

[Paul O'R]

Grant,

My understanding of the underlining of a squadron code was that it was done if a code was repeated between two different squadrons. One would have the codes underlined and the other would not.

Paul O'Reilly

[Andrew A.]

No only Bolingbrokes and P-40s served in Alaska. The Hurricanes did serve in B.C...which is kinda near Alaska.

Hi guys-

Great topic and close to my heart as a lot of the west coast Hurricanes operated close to home!

In "War on our Doorstep" by Brendan Coyle he mentions that "in keeping with the practice of rotating squadrons on remote bases", 118 (Kittyhawk) squadron was replaced by the 135th (Hurricanes) in August 1943. Also included is a pic of a 135 sqn. Hurricane with the caption indicating it was based on Annette Island in 1944. No specific ref to this info is included, but the pic sure looks like the Aleutians! It also mentions that 115 (Boleys) was replaced by 149 (Venturas) at the same time.

Is this legit? It's a pretty cool book BTW if you're into the war in the North Pacific!

Cheers, A

Edited February 2, 2009 by Andrew A.

[RCAFFAN]

The History for 135 Squadron does state that it was at Annette Island Alaska from Aug 16/43 to Nov16/43 (3months) and that they were flying Hurricane Mk XIIs at that time so Hurricanes in Alaska sounds possible. They transferred to Kittyhawk MkIVs in May 44 but stayed in BC while on those....

Cheers

Bruce

[gmat]

Thank you everyone for your help.

Anyone have photos or info about markings for 135 Sqdn Hurricanes?

Also, did the RCAF have that many squadrons so that there would be duplications in codes? I thought that underlining the codes was a way to distinguish Canadian squadrons from RAF squadrons. The other theaters of operations did not feel the need to have special markings if they had the same codes as those based in England. Can someone with more expertise help me out?

Thank you very much.

Best wishes,

Grant

[Andrew A.]

Thank you everyone for your help.

Anyone have photos or info about markings for 135 Sqdn Hurricanes?

Also, did the RCAF have that many squadrons so that there would be duplications in codes? I thought that underlining the codes was a way to distinguish Canadian squadrons from RAF squadrons. The other theaters of operations did not feel the need to have special markings if they had the same codes as those based in England. Can someone with more expertise help me out?

Thank you very much.

Best wishes,

Grant

Hi Grant-

I'm far from an expert and just have this one photo in Coyle's book to go by- but the Hurricane described from 135 appears to have the standard R( c )AF scheme with sky fuselage band and typical roundels (C.1 on the fuselage sides is all that's visible). It's very indistinct due to the lighting in the photo but it does appear to have full squadron codes (XP) - in this case it's XP@F. Again, the way it's lit it's hard to see if they're underlined but it sure appears not. Quite a few of the other squadron codes for BC based aircraft are underlined so I'm not sure what the guideline was here. As far as I can tell, the code letters are black only (certainly darker than background) which again is a bit wierd as most Kittyhawks had Sky codes to my knowledge.

Anyway, HTH.

Cheers, A

Edited February 2, 2009 by Andrew A.

[airjiml2]

Grant,

PM me, I've got a some of 135 Squ. Hurricane photos. Some had underlines, some didn't. Depends on the aircraft. I'll answer you other questions there too.

Andrew A - That sounds like a very interesting book. I'll have to find a copy ASAP.

Jim

Edited February 2, 2009 by airjiml2

[airjiml2]

Well I was wrong...135 Squ. left for Alaska on Aug. 31, 1943 (18 Hurricanes and 2 Harvards were ferried from Patricia Bay to Dog Creek, BC, en-route to Annette Island, AK.) and returned Nov. 17, 1943 (14 Hurricanes and 2 Harvards were ferried from Annette Island to Terrace, BC.) Sorry about that. Teach me to open my mouth and say anything definitive...

Andrew A - Can you tell if the Hurricane in the book has a spinner? I have a photo of a bunch of Hurricane XIIs at Pat Bay in August 43 and none carry codes...also most don't have the sky band...though one does. I wonder if that is really a RCAF Hurricane or a 174 Squadron RAF plane? If it has a spinner I have a feeling it is a photo of a RAF plane used by mistake.

Jim

[Andrew A.]

Andrew A - Can you tell if the Hurricane in the book has a spinner? I have a photo of a bunch of Hurricane XIIs at Pat Bay in August 43 and none carry codes...also most don't have the sky band...though one does. I wonder if that is really a RCAF Hurricane or a 174 Squadron RAF plane? If it has a spinner I have a feeling it is a photo of a RAF plane used by mistake.

Jim

Hi Jim-

The A/C in the pic absolutely does have a spinner and there's no doubt there's a fuselage band- so very interesting, could be as you suspect! The dark codes as well are a bit strange- didn't look that closely at the pic before. Shame it\s so dark (backlit) so it's difficult to make out detail- any other distinguishing marks I could look for?

The book is great, has quite a few photos of the operating bases in Alaska I don't think appear anywhere else- and it has a bunch of interesting details on submarine ops and the use of the Glen seaplane. It's by Heritage House publishing, ISBN #1-894384-46-6. It's a local publisher so could be tricky to find depending on where you are- I can help you find a copy locally if you'd like.

Cheers!

A

[airjiml2]

Andrew,

Thank you for the offer, I was able to track done a copy from Amazon and it should be on its way to me soon. Thanks for the heads up though, I'd never heard of the book before.

Jim

[Paul O'R]

Guys,

I haven't seen the photo you're discussing but one possibility is that the aircraft was a prop in one of two movies made at Pat Bay airfield during the war. One was "The Commandos Strike At Dawn" where Pat Bay plays the part of a German airfield in Norway. A number of aircraft were painted in dark (black?) paint with German markings. Another is one of the Lassie series where the famous pooch saves the day on an Allied airfield. I haven't actually seen the film but a few stills are replicated in a book I have and that movie could be the source of the oddly marked aircraft.

Paul O'Reilly

[airjiml2]

Guys,

I haven't seen the photo you're discussing but one possibility is that the aircraft was a prop in one of two movies made at Pat Bay airfield during the war. One was "The Commandos Strike At Dawn" where Pat Bay plays the part of a German airfield in Norway. A number of aircraft were painted in dark (black?) paint with German markings.

I know they created the MesserHurri for Captain of the Clouds, but I don't remember Hurricanes in either Lassie (Bolies, Venturas, and P-40s) or Commandos (Bolies and Lysanders). But you are right, some aircraft were repainted for Commandos...

Evil Lysander

Jim

Edited February 5, 2009 by airjiml2