spaceman Posted November 28, 2017 Author Share Posted November 28, 2017 On 21.11.2017 at 1:29 PM, spaceman said: Hello everybody, as I see you have no opinion or suggestions on this issue. Anyway, let's go, because with regard to the glass body for the lamps without a large lampshade, I have at least gotten a tip from a friend from the Paper Modelers Forum, who has found out a manufacturer of smallest glass beads in the Czech Crystal Valley, which I could perhaps contact to possibly get a handful of samples for testing. Hello everybody, just short to the status quo, as one could expect, from the Crystal Valley I've got a negative answer to my request, because they only deliver upwards of 30 kg. And quite so many lamps there are not installed on the Launch Pad. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted December 9, 2017 Author Share Posted December 9, 2017 (edited) Hello everybody, in the meantime, I went to another building site again and took care of the Intertank of the External Tank (ET), which I like to have as 3D print (1:144), if I can find a modeler and manufacturer for it. Source: NASA Here is the 3D model by my friend Bill (niParts) from the ARC Forum, but unfortunately only in 1:72 scale, Source: shapeways.com (niParts) as well as here with the installation of the finished 3D-Intertank at his ET (1:72), where the part comes out great, in my opinion. Source: arcforums.com (niart17) And he also offers the matching mounts (Ice Frost Ramps) for the GH2 and GO2 pressure lines, also 1:72. Source: shapeways.com (niParts) A charming alternative to this is the Scratch building with thin Evergreen strips, Source: raumfahrer.net (inselaner) as it was successfully and impressively had been realized by my friend (inselaner) in the Raumcon forum at the ET of his Airfix Shuttle Stack. Source: raumfahrer.net (inselaner) So far, I have also flirted with the idea of this scratch-building variant, in case I can not find a suitable 3D-print. In the Airfix kit, the Intertank stringers are only hinted at by these boring decals and are therefore only 2D, which I can not make friends with. So I'm still trying to get a 3D Intertank (1:144), with that Michael Key (The Aerospace Place) had been starting in a hopeful way, Source: Shapeways.com (The Aerospace Place - Michael Key) on whose update I'm still waiting. That's why I've been more in-depth with the Stringers, if I have to scratch them myself, which I did not intend to do. Source: NASA So far, unfortunately, I had no dimensions of the stringers, but rather I have always tried to estimate it myself. At first, these images helped me, where cracks in the insulating foam on the Intertank before the STS-133 had been investigated, Source: NASA which were caused by a broken stringer, which can be seen here. And thus the height of the stringers should be about 2.5''. Source: NASA From another image of this study after the repair of this stringer area, then I have determinedthe 1:144 widths of the Stringer (0.3 mm) and the Valleys (0.65 mm), which would be a good basis for scratch building. Source: NASA So far so good, but then I've actually found even more detailed information about stringer geometry in another NASA document (ntrs.nasa.gov), Source: NASA with which I made this sketch (1:1), which was then supplemented by the 1'' thick foam insulation (red), And these dimensions with foam insulation could now, if one would like, be taken as a basis for scratch building, which is summarized here again. Source: NASA But I still hope that Michael Key keeps on the line. At first he wanted to know the diameter and the exact position of the LO2-Feed Line as well as the Forward SRB Attachment Point) in the Intertank, what I still have to determine. Source: NASA Edited December 12, 2017 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K2Pete Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 Oh ... I hope you don't have to build the stringers from scratch ... fingers crossed that Michael Key will come through for you! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted December 11, 2017 Author Share Posted December 11, 2017 (edited) Thanks Pete for your good wishes, the Scratch variant with Evergreen strips, I'll initially keep in the hindquarters. But I think Michael Key is on a good way and will succeed. Edited December 12, 2017 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted December 12, 2017 Author Share Posted December 12, 2017 (edited) Hello everyone, and my hope was not disappointed. Yesterday Michael Key came up with a new update in which he took into account some of my correction hints. On the one hand, it has reduced his previous, somewhat too large number of stringer in the two Thrust Panel to 26, as well as the perpendicularly extending circumferential segment rings somewhat narrower made, which looks much better. Source: Shapeways.com (The Aerospace Place - Michael Key) And on the other hand, he has adapted the geometry of the front and rear transitions from the Intertank to the ET better to the original. Source: NASA as you can see here, all respect. Source: Shapeways.com (The Aerospace Place - Michael Key) In order to be able to continue modeling, he now needs the exact location of the SRB Forward Attachment Points, as well as the location of the LO2 Feedline (Ø 17'') and of the GO2 and GH2 Pressure Lines (Ø 2'') , shown in this drawing. Source: Lockheed Martin (System Definition Handbook SLWT - Vol. II) The only question is whether or how well the details of the Shuttle Stack from the Airfix Kit match this original drawing, or not. In order to be able to check these details on the shuttle stack, I had to disassemble my previously provisionally taped Test-stack and then to attach the kit supports at the SRB on the ET-Attachment Ring to determine the exact position of the coupling point on the Intertank. With the glued supports, the location of the SRB on the ET was now fixed exactly, and could be marked again. After that, I was amazed that my border of the front SRB docking pad, previously marked with tape on the test stack, was sitting actually a bit too deep, which could now be corrected. Then I still determined the location of the LO2 feedline on the Intertank and was pleasantly surprised that the angle of 23° matches with the value in the above drawing. However, what is less consistent with the original is the spartan version of the feedline itself and the lack of coverage (Fairing). Source: NASA This has been realized much better by Revell on their ET-Intertank, as you can see here at the ET of my recently unexpectedly deceased friend Thomas † from Bavaria, whose Real Space Modeling estate was taken over by me. In view of this, after careful consideration and in coordination with his wife and son, I have come to the conclusion that it would be also in his sense to at least partly preserve his model-building heritage, when I would integrate some of his assemblies and parts, e.g. the already LED illuminated FSS platforms and the Hammerhead Crane as well as the PE staircases for the tower, etc. into my model and would thus be able to document and honor his awesome modeling work and skills for everyone visibly posthumously. - May he rest in peace ... And here finally the distance of the coupling point for Michael Key, which lies approximately in the middle. At this point, a continuous inner tube is foreseen into which I will later insert a brass rod (Ø 2 mm) to stabilize the SRBs. Source: Shapeways.com (The Aerospace Place - Michael Key) Edited January 27, 2018 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crowe-t Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 Hi Manfred, You're doing such a great job on this project! It's great to see you starting to research and work on the shuttle stack. I haven't posted a lot lately but I'm following along with all of your posts. Will Michael Key's 1/144 3D printed Intertank be available for everyone to buy? Mike. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted December 12, 2017 Author Share Posted December 12, 2017 (edited) Thank you Mike for your words of praise and your continued interest, as well as to all my other true friends here, and therefore you will hereby be decorated with the STS-6 Order of Merit 1st Class. I know the particular predilection of you guys here in ARC for Shuttle Modeling, but I'm even more interested in the whole Launch Complex with all of its fascinating technique. BTW, I think so, that Michael Key's 3D Intertank (1/144) someday will be available at Shapeways for everyone to buy, but I will ask him. But keep in mind that this ET-IT is specially modeled for the Airfix ET, which differs in some details and dimensions from Revell's ET. So this intertank is tapered from bottom to top - thicker at the bottom and 1 mm thinner at the top, what is very strange, but it's fact. Bye for now. Edited December 12, 2017 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted December 15, 2017 Author Share Posted December 15, 2017 Hello everybody, in the direct comparison of the two ETs I noticed that the Revell IT is about three millimeters further back than on the Airfix ET, while the lengths and diameters are almost identical. And because we are comparing the two stack kits, I also looked at the SRBs a bit more closely and also found some differences. Apart from the smaller number of lower rings, the Revell-SRB appears less filigree than the Airfix SRB, particularly caused by the larger Aft Skirt Hold-down Posts and the sturdier supports on the ET Attachment Ring, although the diameters are comparable. If one compares the two undersides of the Aft Skirts, one will notice that the ring-shaped heat shield on the Airfix SRB is too narrow-breasted, which Revell has not solve optimally, but at least better, what the comparison with this picture makes clear, even if it is just a Mock-up on the KSC grounds. Source: NASA Probably that has animated my ARC friend Bill (niart17) to 3D-modeling of his Heat shields (1:72). Source: shapeways.com (niParts) But neither the heat shield of the Mock-up nor the 3D printing are perfect, as the original consists of 24 segments, as one can see in this drawing. Source: Space Transportation System - HAER No. TX-116 And so it is also with the kits, no one is perfect, everyone has their advantages and disadvantages. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted December 17, 2017 Author Share Posted December 17, 2017 (edited) Hello everybody, now, of course, the question araises, how one could preferably scratch this heat shield, has anyone from the round possibly a useful tip? Here also still an original photo, whereby these foam insulation under the rings in the early missions did not exist then. Source: NASA Or I could try to model such a half ring, e.g. by using Epoxie Sculpt on a circular ring from Sheet. The easiest way would be for sure if I could motivate Michael Key to model such heat shields in 1/144 for 3D printing, similar as my friend Bill (niart17) made it in 1/72, although I do not necessarily want to overwhelm him with further extra wishes. So, what else are there for suggestions or ideas? Edited January 27, 2018 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 Hey, Manfred, that doesn't look too complicated -- let me take a stab at it. : ) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted December 18, 2017 Author Share Posted December 18, 2017 (edited) Thanks Joe for looking in on me. What would you need for your approach? BTW, after I've measured the SRB in the last photo again more exactly, I still hit on another idea. Make one out of two! I also still have a Revell Stack from the kit and could combine its Aft Skirt-Ring, which does not look too bad, with the Airfix Disc. And I would imagine that the result could well become a useful compromise. Edited December 19, 2017 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 (edited) Hi Manfred, I'll just need a rough sketch and basic measurements -- inner and outer diameters and shape of the cross section. Just something hand-drawn. The individual segments - do they have straight sides, or would the whole thing be just like a smooth ring cut up into 24 parts? Edited December 19, 2017 by crackerjazz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted December 20, 2017 Author Share Posted December 20, 2017 Hi Joe, today I will send you a sketch with basic measurements. In Bill's 3D model the individual segments have straight sides, as one can see. In Newware's Enhancement Kit (NW131) the Resin Heat Shield looks like a smooth ring devided into 24 parts. In this photo (Hi-Res) one can see some more details of the real heat shield and its construction, which in my opinion also looks like a ring. Source: NASA Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K2Pete Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 This is going to be great viewing as you accurize these assemblies Manfred! But, I'm curious as to why you would need to replicate this in 3D when the 24 segments could be replicated with .005" sheet styrene or even printer paper, laid over the kit's part. Thanx Elliot ... I mean, Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted December 21, 2017 Author Share Posted December 21, 2017 (edited) Thanks Pete, and sorry for my confusion, but that comes from if one is dancing on too many weddings, and then quickly cut and paste ... Yep, I also would like to hold a 3 D printed part in my hand to get a better feeling for it. BTW, surely one could scratch a part like this too, but I still have enough stuff to scratch ... Edited December 21, 2017 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted December 21, 2017 Author Share Posted December 21, 2017 (edited) On 19.12.2017 at 6:17 AM, crackerjazz said: Hi Manfred, I'll just need a rough sketch and basic measurements -- inner and outer diameters and shape of the cross section. Just something hand-drawn. The individual segments - do they have straight sides, or would the whole thing be just like a smooth ring cut up into 24 parts? Hi Joe, these are the parts of the Airfix SRB & Aft Skirt, and here is my little sketch of the ASTC, technically known as the Aft Skirt Thermal Curtain, which is desribed in this interesting report SRB Thermal Curtain Design Support. The ASTC is a flexible, high temperature, cloth and insulation composite that is used to protect the hardware located inside the aft skirt of the SRB, which consists of nine layers of insulating materials and is 2.58 inches thick. The ASTC is made up of twenty four segments, which are hand sewn together during installation on the aft skirt, what one can see here. Source: NASA In this report there are some interesting drawings oft the ASTC, which might help you during 3D modeling of this detail. That's why I'm thinking, that the segments should be more curved than in Bill's 3D model, where they are more flat. In my opinion White Strong & Flexible should be a good choise for the 3D print, isn't it? Now I can only hope, that you can come up with a good approach. Edited December 22, 2017 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted December 22, 2017 Share Posted December 22, 2017 Hi Manfred, Didn't realize it was this small. I wouldn't suggest White, Strong and Flexible because of the roughness. But that ring on the Airfix part -- can it be rescribed instead? Or Pete's suggestion to make paper or sheet styrene segments might be a good idea too -- it will simulate the surface imperfections better. Anyway, got a question, this should be 2.5mm? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted December 22, 2017 Author Share Posted December 22, 2017 Hi Joe, yep, you have to keep in mind that the Airfix Kit is only 1/144, and so the Airfix part has an outside diameter of 33 mm. But you are absolutely right of course, the height must be 2,5 mm, that's my mistake, I also have measured and drawn 2,5 mm. These are the ASTC Resin parts in Newware's Space Shuttle Enhancement Kit 1/144 (NW131). Do you think that FUD would be better? I only thought, because Bill has used WSF for his 3D print. Maybe he could say something about the better quality? Unfortunately, I have no experience in this field. BTW, I don't understand, what you mean with your question, if that ring on the Airfix part could be rescribed? Even my Google translator was helpless ... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted December 22, 2017 Author Share Posted December 22, 2017 Hello everyone, because that just now fits in well, so the ASTCs look like, respectively what remained of them after a launch. Source: trn.trains.com (Route of the Rockets) This great photo from the salvage of the SRBs has been posted by a girlfriend from Papermodelers forum, which was a crucial help in solving one of my last riddles with a strange equipment on the inner walls of the SRB Exhaust Chambers of the MLP. When looking at the circled detail of this photo, I immediately recalled, because this item is strangely wrapped on many photos, as one can see here. Source: NASA Here one can detect a little bit more, Source: NASA and here one can see it under the SRB Aft Skirt, Source: NASA in direct contact with the above circled interface, and both parts are like chalk and cheese. But nevertheless the question remains, as to what these devices were used for and whether they existed from the start, or whether they were eventually retrofitted? BTW, from time to time such ASTC segments even appear in the "Bay", it's hard to believe ... Source: ebay.com So friends, at this point I want to remind you once again of my Christmas decorated MLP from the previous year, and wish you all Merry Christmas. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crowe-t Posted December 22, 2017 Share Posted December 22, 2017 (edited) Hi Manfred, Maybe you can use the ASTC parts from the Revell kit and scribe thin lines to separate the 24 segments or use thin styrene strip to make the separations. These parts will be under the SRB's when it's mounted so they really won't be seen much. If you do use 3D printed parts I would use FUD for those. WSF is very grainy. I like your decorated MLP! Have a Merry Christmas! Edited December 22, 2017 by crowe-t Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted December 22, 2017 Author Share Posted December 22, 2017 (edited) Thanks Mike for your tips, and also for you and Patricia and your nice cats Merry Christmas. I'm still hoping that Joe can come up with a brilliant 3D model, otherwise I have to help myself and find a way out. BTW, although I'm still a 3D layman, but these parts can not be so difficult for an expert like Joe, I guess, when I look at his other spectacular models. BTW, I have measured the thin seams in the Hi-Res image, which should be only 0,1 mm in 1:144, therefore one could only scribe them at best. And besides, nearly nothing of the ASTCs is to be seen under the Aft Skirts when the stack is standing,so you're absolutely right. Edited December 22, 2017 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted December 29, 2017 Share Posted December 29, 2017 (edited) Merry Christmas! No expert here, Manfred -- I'm still learning : ( I started over and rebuilt the 3D model. I don't know why the doughnut in my initial model turned out so thin. Anyway I think I'm pretty much done -- I can upload this to Shapeways so we can see how much it'll turn out. I don't really add any markup -- doing this just for fun. Edited December 29, 2017 by crackerjazz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted December 30, 2017 Author Share Posted December 30, 2017 Hi Joe, thanks for your help, your ASTC 3D model looks awesome. Can you indicate the thin seams between the segments only as a small groove of about 0.1 mm? I hope, that your model will also include two ASTCs, like Bill's model, right? I also think that FUD should maybe be better than WSF. I'm curious what Shapeways will answer? Now I wish you and everyone a Happy New Year! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crowe-t Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 Happy New Year! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tecko Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 ABSOLUTELY AMAZING! I am still in shock by the fabulous work done on this model. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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