F4U-1 Spirit of 76 national insignia outline color

[Dave Williams]

Anyone know for sure the color of the outline surrounding the stars and bars on F4U-1 "Spirit of 76" from VMF-215? The Eagle Editions sheet has the outline in red, but the 1/32 Tamiya kit decals have the outline in insignia blue. Strangely, the decal instruction in the Tamiya booklet have the outline drawn in a different color than the blue behind the star, which seems to indicate the red outline, but the kit decal, and the color drawing on the side of the box are blue. TIA.

The photo here about 1/3 of the way down seems to show a different color on the bottom half of the fuselage insignia, but it looks like the top half (over the blue painted area of the fuselage) doesn't have an outline. The underwing insignia seems a bit inconclusive to me.

http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=48980

Edited July 10, 2013 by Dave Williams

[seawinder]

Anyone know for sure the color of the outline surrounding the stars and bars on F4U-1 "Spirit of 76" from VMF-215? The Eagle Editions sheet has the outline in red, but the 1/32 Tamiya kit decals have the outline in insignia blue. Strangely, the decal instruction in the Tamiya booklet have the outline drawn in a different color than the blue behind the star, which seems to indicate the red outline, but the kit decal, and the color drawing on the side of the box are blue. TIA.

The photo here about 1/3 of the way down seems to show a different color on the bottom half of the fuselage insignia, but it looks like the top half (over the blue painted area of the fuselage) doesn't have an outline. The underwing insignia seems a bit inconclusive to me.

http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=48980

FWIW, the photos look to me more like blue than red. There's a photo of another Corsair higher up with red surround; it's a lot lighter (of course the type of film -- ortho or pan -- could give different appearances). Is it possible that at one point the surrounds were red, but were overpainted in blue later?

Cheers,

Pip

[Litvyak]

I've noticed an odd thing that red is often darker than blue in B&W photos, so that might be something to keep in mind, too...

[Chris D]

I would say it probably depends on when exactly you wanted to represent the plane. It is likely that both the Eagle Editions and Tamiya decals are correct for slightly different timeframes. The red outlines were part of the revision of the US national insignia in June 1943 which added the white bars to the sides of the stared circle to make the shape more easily distinguishable from the Japanese hinomaru at a distance. Unfortunately the reintroduction of red into the insignia meant that just like in the early days of the war, antiaircraft gunners and pilots alike would catch a flash of red on the fuselage or wings and ID it as hostile.

Since war is hard enough when only one side is shooting at you, the friendly fire attracting national insignias were quickly abandoned. Their new shape was determined to be effective, but the red color was deemed undesirable, so orders replaced it with insignia blue by September. So what you are seeing in the pictures could be a coat of new, unfaded insignia blue over the older red outline contrasted with the faded colors of the original paint. Or it may be some other shade of blue paint that was on hand and used to cover the red. I don't think insignia blue paint was a priority on the transports into the Solomon Islands, but I also doubt that the Marines were going to stand on ceremony and wait until the right color was on hand. There's honestly no way to tell from the black and white pictures whether it is just different ages of insignia blue, or different shades.

The decision on which way to go is really up to you. From roughly June to roughly September, the red outlines were the way to go. When the Marines were told that the red was being deleted from the insignia, somebody ordered a PFC to scrounge up some blue paint and a brush and paint over the red. I don't think there's any surefire "right" answer what paint was used.

Chris

[Jennings]

FWIW, the photos look to me more like blue than red.

How do you determine that from a black & white photo? You can't compare one photo to another. They were taken at different times, by different photographers, in different conditions, with different cameras, with different film, etc, etc.

[Dave Williams]

My feeling is that if the outline were blue, you wouldn't see it around the edge of the circle since, in theory, it's the same insignia blue as the circle. I acknowledge that if the blue outline were hand painted in the field with whatever paint they had on hand, it wouldn't necessarily match.

I'm actually intreagued by the fuselage insignia in the photo. It seems to have no outline where at the top where it's over the top blue camo. Also, where the outline is painted over the middle and lower camo color, it's very ragged, like someone took a wide brush and painted (or painted over) the outline. The wing insignia seems more "factory".

[seawinder]

How do you determine that from a black & white photo? You can't compare one photo to another. They were taken at different times, by different photographers, in different conditions, with different cameras, with different film, etc, etc.

... which I noted in my post. Still think the surrounds in the photos are blue, maybe overpainted.

[Chris D]

Dave,

You'd definitely see a difference in the photos even if it was the same insignia blue paint as the circle. These planes were out in the humid tropical air, getting sun and salt bleached constantly. The paint would tend to fade quite significantly over many months, so fresh paint out of the can (even if nominally the same paint) would contrast quite sharply with the faded paint. Looking at the photo with the lack of an outline at the top of the fuselage insignia, what I see there is the red outline was painted over by the same shade of blue as the topside of the aircraft. If you look closely enough, you can see a tiny amount of contrast between the old outline and the top of the fuselage showing the difference between the "new" and "old" paint. If you look closely enough at the wing insignia, you can see that it too has apparent brush strokes, though they're less obvious since we're looking at a pretty flat angle.

Based on the pictures, I'd say that the outlines were all painted over with the fuselage top sea blue. Its the best way to explain why the outlines all appear slightly lighter than the circles, there appears to be minimal contrast with the fuselage top, and the lines all look hand painted. Given those three observations, I'd rule out red, as well as insignia blue.

Chris

[Jennings]

As noted elsewhere, the bottom line here is, it's a b&w photo, so there is absolutely, positively no way to know for certain what color it was. There just isn't.

[Chris D]

Well that was helpful...

Yes, it is true that based solely off of a b&w photo, we can't definitively say for certain exactly what color it was. However, knowing a few preconditions (like the topside is Sea Blue, and the center of the insignia is Insignia Blue), and making some simple assumptions (the lines are painted over in some shade of blue, and the Marines would choose a color commonly found in US Naval Aviation at the time), we can make an assessment about what color it most likely was.

Dave is trying to model a Corsair, so I tried to help with my best interpretation of what color was used on the real thing, and I provided how I came to make that assessment. I could be wrong with that, but Dave can't exactly paint the outline "there is no way to know for certain". In the end, some color is going to go there on the model, and I offered my opinion on what I *think* should go there to match the real thing.

Chris

[J.C. Bahr]

Dave,

Here's my take on it... when you look at many of those photos on that site, it's obvious that SOMETHING was "painted out" in many of them... and since we know that there was the period of the red outline and that these were changed to limit the meatball confusion... then obviously, the surround WAS red... AT SOME POINT. I don't recall ever hearing of going to a straight blue outline first... so what else could it be?

Do what YOU want to do... because either way, I don't think it can be wrong.

My question with the Birdcages of that era... since apparently the early all medium blue ones in the field had the darker blue added on top at some point... did the undersides stay the light gray color, or did they get painted white in the field and it just looks dirty?