Looking for A-7E VA-195 Dambusters or VA-86 Sidewinders in Low-viz

[jwhangen]

I've been looking high and low for some good VA-195 Dambusters or VA-86 Sidewinders photos of Low-viz camo (TPS) A-7E Corsair II's. Anyone happen to have any? Thanks in advance!

Edited March 20, 2008 by jwhangen

[Big Har]

Hey JW,

Here are a few VA-86 pics that I have in low-vis. They were taken at Cecil Field duiring a VA-86 open house on 8/11/84.

I hope you find them useful. Harry

[DutyCat]

You DO know the TPS A-7 color is medium gray 35237, right? It is not NOT Light or Dark Ghost Gray, like everyone seems to think it is.

Edited March 21, 2008 by DutyCat

[Reddog]

FWIW

According to the Mil-Std-2161A(AS), PAINT SCHEMES AND EXTERIOR MARKINGS

FOR US NAVY AND MARINE CORPS AIRCRAFT dated 1 May 1993

The TPS colors used on the A-7 were 36320 and 36375.

Reddog

Edit: I did two cruises (85 and 87) in VA-86's sister squadron, VA-82. Is there something you are specifically looking for? I can look in my cruise books, it's got several photos of VA-86 aircraft in it.

Edited March 21, 2008 by Reddog

[DutyCat]

FWIW

According to the Mil-Std-2161A(AS), PAINT SCHEMES AND EXTERIOR MARKINGS

FOR US NAVY AND MARINE CORPS AIRCRAFT dated 1 May 1993

The TPS colors used on the A-7 were 36320 and 36375.

I am sure there were examples of that, but, I don't think that was common. I suggest digging a little deeper. I will see what I can turn up as well. I know FOR SURE that VA-86 and VA-82 A-7's on Nimitz in the 87's were overall 35237. I was there and saw them everyday. Also, look at some photos. I know photos can be misleading, but when you look at many, you can get an idea. Navy A-7 experts chime in. Your reference is 93, so maybe they made a change. The A-7 was out of service shortly after that anyway, and maybe many were never repainted to the new standard.

[Reddog]

Dutycat,

I was only giving the "official" paint colors.

VA-82 and 86's aircraft weren't overall med. grey, I was there too, I was an ordnanceman in VA-82 for the 85 and 87 cruise. Our birds were pretty much over all dark ghost grey with light ghost grey markings.

Reddog

VA-82 Marauders 84-87 :wub:

[DutyCat]

Dutycat,

I was only giving the "official" paint colors.

VA-82 and 86's aircraft weren't overall med. grey, I was there too, I was an ordnanceman in VA-82 for the 85 and 87 cruise. Our birds were pretty much over all dark ghost grey with light ghost grey markings.

Reddog

VA-82 Marauders 84-87

REALLY? You might be correct about the light ghost gray markings, but I think you are mistaken about the overall color. The contrast between light and dark ghost gray is not so great, especially during that era (I think since then, the ghost grays have been slightly reformulated to provide a little more contrast.) If you look at your squadron's A-7 photos from that era, there is a huge contrast between the overall color gray and the markings. Do you have an 87 cruise book? I will try to illustrate by comparison. If you look on page 333, there is an airwing flyover photo. Just above and to the right of Nimitz' island, there is a diamond formation of four F-14s. The two on the lower right are from VF-41, who on that cruise used light/dark ghost gray on their planes. Those two aircraft are Dark Ghost Gray on top. Immediately on the upper left of those VF-41 F-14s are two more from VF-84, which are noticeably darker and I believe used medium gray for the top of that "hard edged" scheme. Now look at the diamond formation of A-7's on the upper left. But, I'll admit different photos/light conditions can play tricks. It looks like the photo was taken on an overcast day. Those A-6's look awful dark up there, and so does the Viking bringing up the rear. I KNOW we never painted a plane medium gray. So, who knows?

Edited March 26, 2008 by DutyCat

[Reddog]

Dutycat,

Took a look at page 333, they do look dark but they were overall 36375 and you are correct, the markings are lighter then light ghost grey. I got the micro scale decals for both VA-82 and VA-86 (48-292 and 48-291 respectfully) and the instructions also say overall 36375. I look at my (FS 595b) color chips and 36237 is too dark for what our birds were.

You were in VS-24, I knew most of your AO's, our shop was right around the corner from your AO shop.

Reddog :P

Edited March 26, 2008 by Reddog

[DutyCat]

Dutycat,

Took a look at page 333, they do look dark but they were overall 36375 and you are correct, the markings are lighter then light ghost grey. I got the micro scale decals for both VA-82 and VA-86 (48-292 and 48-291 respectfully) and the instructions also say overall 36375. I look at my (FS 595b) color chips and 36237 is too dark for what our birds were.

You were in VS-24, I knew most of your AO's, our shop was right around the corner from your AO shop.

Reddog

Yeah, you know when TPS first came out and they had that really light gray underside? It was later judged TOO light and TPS went to light ghost gray undersides. The lighter gray color was still available, I guess. Maybe they used that for the markings. In the Italeri 1/72 kit, there are decals for VA-86 TPS. I'll have to look, but I think the instructions call for dark gull gray overall. And the decal markings are WHITE. Wrong on both counts. Also, didn't you say your birds were dark ghost gray. Isn't that 36320?

[Sig Saur & Son]

Does this help at all?

[Sig Saur & Son]

It's from my personal archives. I have no idea who took the photo

[Reddog]

Yep, 36320 is dark ghost grey and that was the color of our jets, micro scale calls for the wrong color. It's been 20 years since I built my A-7 so it's been kind of hard trying to remember what color I used. The memory ain't what it use to be, sorry for the confusion but now that my memory has been jarred, it was dark ghost grey.

Reddog :)

[DutyCat]

Does this help at all?

Well OBVIOUSLY, all that touch up paint is medium gray 35237. Look at all that blue tint!

Edited March 27, 2008 by DutyCat

[Reddog]

Our planes didn't have the blue tint to them, they were grey, not blue. :)

You also have to take into account the effects of weathering.

Reddog :)

[jwhangen]

FWIW

According to the Mil-Std-2161A(AS), PAINT SCHEMES AND EXTERIOR MARKINGS

FOR US NAVY AND MARINE CORPS AIRCRAFT dated 1 May 1993

The TPS colors used on the A-7 were 36320 and 36375.

Reddog

Edit: I did two cruises (85 and 87) in VA-86's sister squadron, VA-82. Is there something you are specifically looking for? I can look in my cruise books, it's got several photos of VA-86 aircraft in it.

Hello,

First, thank you to everyone for all of this interesting info. I had a feeling that TPS was not as cut-and-dried as sometimes thought, just based on the various photos I've seen. Not sure if it's the light or weathering or the photography, but TPS can seem to range from a gray to blue.

My Microscale decal instructions for the VA-195 A-7E say that the scheme should be these colors, does this make sense or is it fudged up?

1) FS36320 on the upper fuselage sides and vertical stabilizer

2) FS 36496 on the lower fuselage sides/bottom and on the upper and lower wing surfaces.

3) FS36440 on the upper wing surfaces along the leading edge.

4) Markings are FS36495, with the exception of the wing markings which are FS36320

As far as specifics go for VA-195, I'd just like photos of a VA-195 aircraft around 1982. The BuNo for the decal version is 158823, NG-401. If anyone has a photo of this plane, a million thanks!!

[DutyCat]

Hello,

First, thank you to everyone for all of this interesting info. I had a feeling that TPS was not as cut-and-dried as sometimes thought, just based on the various photos I've seen. Not sure if it's the light or weathering or the photography, but TPS can seem to range from a gray to blue.

My Microscale decal instructions for the VA-195 A-7E say that the scheme should be these colors, does this make sense or is it fudged up?

1) FS36320 on the upper fuselage sides and vertical stabilizer

2) FS 36496 on the lower fuselage sides/bottom and on the upper and lower wing surfaces.

3) FS36440 on the upper wing surfaces along the leading edge.

4) Markings are FS36495, with the exception of the wing markings which are FS36320

As far as specifics go for VA-195, I'd just like photos of a VA-195 aircraft around 1982. The BuNo for the decal version is 158823, NG-401. If anyone has a photo of this plane, a million thanks!!

Well, there was a good bit of variation. I have never heard of 36440 on the upper wings along the leading edge. I have heard of the Dark Ghost Gray 36320 being there, however. Check out this link. This is one variation and certianly not definitive.

http://www.jpsmodell.de/dc/draw/a7e_lv.jpg

[Reddog]

Sounds fishy to me, never heard of 36496 and I could not find it in the IPMS Color Reference Guide or in the FS 595B color chips.

Reddog

[jwhangen]

Sounds fishy to me, never heard of 36496 and I could not find it in the IPMS Color Reference Guide or in the FS 595B color chips.

Reddog

By the way, the other Microscale sheet I have is for VA-86, specifically BuNo 159294 AJ-400. The funny/odd/frustrating thing about this sheet is that Microscale offers NO painting information at all except to say that they are painted in FS36375!

This low-viz is confusing - so basically there are some low-viz schemes with only one color/shade of gray, and others with multiple colors/shades of gray? Which came first time-wise, the one-color or the multi-color? Also, were squadrons able to make the choice as to which to use, or did a higher command tell them to do one or the other?

[Aggressor Supporter]

Nice pics Harry. Those Corsairs look good in at low vis color and scheme.

[Reddog]

The single overall color TPS scheme came first. One reason why you see so many colors on an aircraft is touch up paint. It is illeagal to completely paint an aircraft at the squadron level, only touch painting is allowed. So if you do some touch up painting at home base, the go to the ship and do more you will get different colors. Even though you are using the same FS # paint, the manufactures maybe different and you get different batches also. Also, was the touch up done using spray paint can or mixed and sprayed painted using an air gun.

You don't have to get it perfect, there's just too many variations so there's lots of room for variations.

HTH

Reddog

[warhawk1130]

As a former member of VA-195 from 80 to 84, I had the priviledge to see the chippy bird go from gray white to low vis. This is the only pic I have at the moment. And I saw this bird painted to this color in the squadron hangar by the crud crew....this picture was taken during the 83-84 deployment onboard USS Ranger.

[jwhangen]

As a former member of VA-195 from 80 to 84, I had the priviledge to see the chippy bird go from gray white to low vis. This is the only pic I have at the moment. And I saw this bird painted to this color in the squadron hangar by the crud crew....this picture was taken during the 83-84 deployment onboard USS Ranger.

That's a great photo, thank you! Do you have it in a larger size?

Thanks again!

[warhawk1130]

That's a great photo, thank you! Do you have it in a larger size?

Thanks again!

No, sorry.....

[abbott]

Dutycat,

Took a look at page 333, they do look dark but they were overall 36375 and you are correct, the markings are lighter then light ghost grey. I got the micro scale decals for both VA-82 and VA-86 (48-292 and 48-291 respectfully) and the instructions also say overall 36375. I look at my (FS 595b) color chips and 36237 is too dark for what our birds were.

You were in VS-24, I knew most of your AO's, our shop was right around the corner from your AO shop.

Reddog

[abbott]

Dutycat,

Took a look at page 333, they do look dark but they were overall 36375 and you are correct, the markings are lighter then light ghost grey. I got the micro scale decals for both VA-82 and VA-86 (48-292 and 48-291 respectfully) and the instructions also say overall 36375. I look at my (FS 595b) color chips and 36237 is too dark for what our birds were.

You were in VS-24, I knew most of your AO's, our shop was right around the corner from your AO shop.

Reddog

I was in VA-86 Ordnance shop from 1983-1987. I also did a short stint in the paint shop, and have actually done painting on VA-86's A-7E's. I can tell you without a doubt that VA-86's A-7E's were definitly 2 tone Gray on the low-vis scheme. Not one overall gray. As we recived them into our squadron from NARF (Naval Air Rework Facility) (as opposed to coming to us from another squadron) The planes had been totally painted with a factory finish. There was dark ghost gray, and light ghost gray. At a glance it appeared one overall color, especially up close. Standing back from the plane, you could see the factory camouflage scheme applied to A-7's during that time. The easiest place to spot it was under the wings where the light gray formed a "V" pattern from the forward edge of the wing, and the trailing edge of the wing...and only if having the right angle of light. Another way you could tell was by the data stencils applied to the plane. (This is how I initally realized it was 2 different colors, and proof of 2 tone) On the Dark ghost gray, the stencils were in light ghost gray...on the light ghost gray, the stencils were in dark ghost gray. This is fact.

I was an avid modeler before I went into the Navy, and it was my interest in models airplanes which caused me to join the Navy. So I was keen to camo colors and details in general from the git-go.

And as RedDog said...after being at squadron level for awhile, all the touch ups and paint variations made it almost impossible to determine what the schemes actually were. But as stated above, when recived from NARF they came to us as described above. Heck, at one point during my 4 years with VA-86, they even had touch ups done with a Grayish-Blue paint, very similar to ghost gray but with a pull more to the blue side. I was told by my Chief it was an Air Force Variation.

At one point when absoluty no color was allowed on the gray scheme, us ordnace men (Namley Kerry Hawkins) had applied bright orange noses to our MER's & TER's, with black block numbers to identify individual bomb racks. It was very short lived as it was decided it was not regulation, and was ordered removed. Never the less, it did happen.

As far as decal companies go, I would not totally rely on them as gospel. Simply put...they were not there, and more times than not, info can change from one decal maker to another about a specific bird. Sometimes greatly.