swallows Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Hello, some days ago I was going through a lot of images of the Westland Wessex to check if Italeri really got it wrong with the tail rotor sense of rotation and found a strange thing: while the kit is actually wrong because the blades rotate anti-clockwise instead of clockwise, I noticed that one of the most photographed Wessex is in agreement with the kit! Take for example this image, it's not the best angle but being an overall view I'm sure that the photo is not reversed: you can see quite clearly that the tail rotor is oriented anti-clockwise. Anyone can explain this anomaly? Is it possible that someone reassembled the helicopter for display with the rotor the other way round?? Any opinions welcome... Cheers Fabio Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Flankerman Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 It is turning clockwise - the tail boom is folded. It took me a while to work it out - trying to describe the rotation with my finger - then 'unfolding' my finger so it was the right way round. It is clockwise (I think !!! ) Here's another photos of a Wessex with the tail folded.... http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wes..._at_Duxford.jpg And another .... http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Han...252/nowra14.jpg Ken Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RCoulter52 Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 It is turning clockwise - the tail boom is folded.It took me a while to work it out - trying to describe the rotation with my finger - then 'unfolding' my finger so it was the right way round. It is clockwise (I think !!! ) Here's another photos of a Wessex with the tail folded.... http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wes..._at_Duxford.jpg And another .... http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Han...252/nowra14.jpg Ken Sorry, but I have to agree with Fabio on this one. No matter how you do it the tail rotor is set up on that Wessex to rotate counter-clockwise. For that matter, the one in the first link you have posted also appears to rotate counter-clockwise. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RCAFFAN Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 (edited) No, that tail rotor only looks counterclockwise because it is folded. The first picture Flankerman posted just prooves the point about the Humphrey shot. When the tail is folded it looks counterclockwise but when it is folded out it will be turning towards the rear of the aircraft, that is clockwise (when you are facing the rotor standing on the port side of the helicopter)...I have a theory about why the tail rotors are backwards in the Ital kit. I have a large book on Helicopters that was published in Italy and in all the illustrations (Wessex and Sikorsky machines) the guy did the tail rotors backwards. I suspect Ital used a drawing from this source instead of a real picture. It is very easy to turn the blades around by cutting and regluing them on the other way.... Cheers Bruce P.S. If you are standing on the starboard side of the helicopter looking at the (back of) the tailrotor it will be still turning towards the rear but that would be counterclockwise by that perspective but I understand the rotation is usually talked about by veiwing the front side of the tail rotor, IE from the port side looking at the rotor in the case of a wessex. Edited March 18, 2009 by RCAFFAN Quote Link to post Share on other sites
swallows Posted March 19, 2009 Author Share Posted March 19, 2009 Ken, Bruce, I'm sorry but I can't agree with you. The folded tail is not important: look at the rotor and pilon only ignoring the main body and you'll see that Humphrey is wrong compared to all other Wessex I've seen, with straight or folded tail. I found also this older image of Humphrey where the rotor is right, so clearly something happened during its permanence in the FAA Museum. By the way look also at the exhausts that seem to point in different directions in the two photos... http://www.airliners.net/photo/UK---Navy/W...HAS3/0726169/L/ Regards Fabio Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RCAFFAN Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Actually Fabio I took off my glasses and looked closer at the screen and now agree with you as to your pic of Humphrey... I worked from Ken's first picture and the comment from RCoulter that they were the same but looking again they are not. Ken's first picture is correct but the Humphery shot does indeed show the blades on backwards I think... Cheers Bruce Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RCoulter52 Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Actually Fabio I took off my glasses and looked closer at the screen and now agree with you as to your pic of Humphrey... I worked from Ken's first picture and the comment from RCoulter that they were the same but looking again they are not. Ken's first picture is correct but the Humphery shot does indeed show the blades on backwards I think...Cheers Bruce And I stand corrected. I, too, looked at the pictures again and you are right. Now all I want to know is..... who the heck is Humphrey?!?!?!? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RCAFFAN Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 (edited) Humphrey was the name printed on the lower nose of that chopper and also had a little red mouse standing on a playing card (don't recall the card but suite was "Hearts " if I remember correctly. Maybe Humphrey was the mouse?....... Cheers Bruce Edited March 19, 2009 by RCAFFAN Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Aaronw Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Arrrgh, it looks like I've put the tail rotor on all my H-19s backwards based on the H-19 / Whirlwind in the background. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Flankerman Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 You are correct Fabio - I apologise. The first photo of the real Humphrey does have the tail rotor turning anti-clockwise - I was wrong. I Googled for 'Humphrey Wessex' and came up with a few photos..... This guy has a build of the Italeri Wessex - and his tail rotor is anti-clockwise... http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/your-comp...hrey-16987.html (fifth photo down shows it well). This guy's build of the Revell Wessex has it going clockwise.... http://micksmodelling.michaellomax.co.uk/g...y-humphrey.html The Corgi die-cast model has it anti-clockwise.... http://www.flyingmule.com/products/CG-AA37602 This photo from a walkround page shows it anti-clockwise ... http://data4.primeportal.net/hangar/howard...42_56_of_66.jpg Which begs the question - which is correct ???? How can they have fitted the tail rotor the wrong way round - surely impossible ??? Intriguing....... Ken (who isn't really into helicopters, but is now fascinated by this conundrum). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Flankerman Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 After more Googling....... This article has a comprehensive description of the Westland Wessex - and although I can't find any text saying which way round the tail rotor rotates, the cutaway drawing here shows it anti-clockwise... However - this site shows the Bristow Wesex being dis-assembled at the Helicopter Museum - and the photo at the bottom shows the tail rotor being clockwise !!! This Royal Flight Wessex has it clockwise. Clockwise. Most photos show it as being clockwise rotating. I am going to the Helicopter Museum soon - I'll try and take some close-up photos - but I am now spending more time on this than I intended.... Ken Quote Link to post Share on other sites
swallows Posted March 20, 2009 Author Share Posted March 20, 2009 the cutaway drawing here shows it anti-clockwise... Wow Ken, no need to apologize, though I hate to correct you again: perhaps I should clarify that I'm describing the sense of rotation looking always from the port side. I took it for granted but actually I didn't write it So... using the same point of reference, the cutaway shows it clockwise! Most photos show it as being clockwise rotating. Yes, this seems to be the rule, but I too found more than one exception. Only I couldn't establish whether they were operational a/c or static exhibits... this site shows the Bristow Wesex being dis-assembled at the Helicopter Museum Looking closely at how the roots are shaped I have a feeling that the blades can be easily installed the wrong way, there are only two simmetrical bolts for each blade... seems unbelievable but it's the only explanation I found myself. I am going to the Helicopter Museum soon - Don't know how I envy you!!! All those helos under the same roof... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Aaronw Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Rather than clockwise / counter clockwise it would be easier to understand rotating towards or away from the fuselage (forward or backwards). Doesn't matter which side you are standing on then. I'm getting dizzy. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Flankerman Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Wow Ken, no need to apologize, though I hate to correct you again: perhaps I should clarify that I'm describing the sense of rotation looking always from the port side. I took it for granted but actually I didn't write it So... using the same point of reference, the cutaway shows it clockwise! Once again - you are correct !!! I must be cracking up looking at so many tail rotors !! :huh: My definition of clockwise or counter-clockwise.... is to look at the rotor whilst facing the hub, like looking at the face of a clock. A good example is the Mi-8 Hip - early examples (Mi-8T) had the tail rotor on the starboard side of the tailboom. Later models (Mi-8MT/Mi-17 etc) had the tail rotor on the port side. It changed from a pusher to a tractor configuration, but, in both cases, the tail rotor turned clockwise if you were looking directly at the hub - and the forward blade went up. Looking closely at how the roots are shaped I have a feeling that the blades can be easily installed the wrong way, there are only two simmetrical bolts for each blade... seems unbelievable but it's the only explanation I found myself. ...and as you say, it must be just the blades attached the wrong way round - I doubt if you could put the hub on wrong !!! Ken Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Helidoris Posted June 16, 2010 Share Posted June 16, 2010 Once again - you are correct !!! I must be cracking up looking at so many tail rotors !! My definition of clockwise or counter-clockwise.... is to look at the rotor whilst facing the hub, like looking at the face of a clock. A good example is the Mi-8 Hip - early examples (Mi-8T) had the tail rotor on the starboard side of the tailboom. Later models (Mi-8MT/Mi-17 etc) had the tail rotor on the port side. It changed from a pusher to a tractor configuration, but, in both cases, the tail rotor turned clockwise if you were looking directly at the hub - and the forward blade went up. ...and as you say, it must be just the blades attached the wrong way round - I doubt if you could put the hub on wrong !!! Ken [The blades on the wessex rotate clockwise looking at it from the hub, tail folded or not, I worked on them for 9 years. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 (edited) Everybody knows Wessex tail rotors rotate clockwise *and* counterclockwise. It just depends which side of the helicopter you're looking at J PS: So after all this, is the Italeri kit correct, or incorrect (I've got like six of them)? I'm dizzy... Edited June 17, 2010 by Jennings Quote Link to post Share on other sites
OzH Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 Everybody knows Wessex tail rotors rotate clockwise *and* counterclockwise. It just depends which side of the helicopter you're looking at J PS: So after all this, is the Italeri kit correct, or incorrect (I've got like six of them)? I'm dizzy... Clockwise looking from the left/port side I think Italeri got it wrong in the instructions... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 So, what have we learned here? Regardless of what side you're looking at it from, or whether you see it as clockwise, counterclockwise, or anti-anticlockwise, the *down-moving* blade is toward the tail. The *up-moving* blade is toward the nose. See how easy that is? J Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RotorheadTX Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 (edited) Actually, the technical parlance is "advancing lower blade" vs. "retreating lower blade"; meaning that the tail rotor blade at the bottom of the disc is either moving toward or away from the nose of the aircraft. Advancing lower blades ensure higher t/r authority in hover because they are moving into the path of the air mass entrained by the main rotor downwash. The down side of advancing lower blades is the risk of material being thrown forward against the fuselage if the t/r strikes the ground or some other object like tree limbs. Almost all modern helicopters fly with advancing lower blade t/r systems. Edited June 19, 2010 by RotorheadTX Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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