Help with baseball rules

[Janissary]

I have questions about MLB rules and asked around a few people. I did not get very satisfactory results, but they were not experts by any means. So perhaps you can help. This will help me enjoy the Buccos even more this year!

Q1: 1 out, runner on 1st. Batter hits a ground ball for a double play. Does it matter how the double play is executed? Are there still two outs if the ball comes first to the 1st base and then the 2nd base? The batter is out, but the runner on 1st is no longer a force out, right? Doesn't he need to be tagged (potentially a rundown)? So, the core question is whether the order in which the outs are recorded matters.

Q2: If the order matters, then what about this scenario: 1out. Runners on 1st and 3rd. Ground ball for a double play. Defense gets the ball to the first base (batter out). The 1st base runner is caught in a rundown. During the rundown (before he is tagged) the runner on 3rd scores. Then the rundown between 1-2 ends in a tag for the third out. Does the run count? If yes, it would mean the timing between scoring from 3rd versus a rundown between 1st and 2nd matters. Never seen this happen. What are the rules here?

Q3: When the catcher throws the ball to the pitcher for the next pitch, if the pitcher misses / drops it, can base runners advance if they are quick? I don't understand when the game is on versus off. I know for example when the batter gets to the second base he gestures to the ref and there seems to be a dead period for the batter to take his protective gear off etc. But is there a clear point when the game is turned back on? If so, who signals it?

Q4: 2 outs, runners on 2nd and 3rd. The count is 3 balls, 2 strikes. In these situations, it seems the base runners are supposed to run no matter what? I always see this and hear it in the commentary. But aren't there situations in which the base runners may need to hold still? For instance, if the pitch hits the ground but the batter swings, the batter can try to run out the catcher's tag to get to first, right? (I forget what that is called). In that situation, isn't the game in action so if the catcher wanted he could get a baserunner in a rundown for the final out? Or are these base runners not running blindly the way I make it out to be?

Q5: If a deep ball bounces off an out fielder's head or glove for a home run (which was originally not going to be a home run), is this a home run? Something like this happened the other day where Marte's hit bounced off from the wall (below the home run line) then went over the wall for an initially ruled home run (http://m.mlb.com/news/article/137822024/starling-martes-home-run-overturned-to-double). It was challenged and overturned for no home run. That made me think what would happen if it hit the outfielder and bounce out.

I can't think of more but if you have other uncommon situations that are interesting from a rules perspective, can you please share? Thanks.

[Rex]

Yes, you have to force at second, and then first,,,,,,or force at first, then tag out at second,,,,,or tag out at both places

Yes, the run counts if it is scored between out number 2 and out number 3,,,,,,it is the sole reason for getting caught in a rundown on purpose with a runner on third,,,,,you can "play for the Run" that way, the same as a bunt

They can run, but, it is a dumb move,,,,they don't do it in the Pros, because too many sneaky pitchers have "dropped the ball" "accidentally",,,,and everyone knows the ball flies faster than a man can run. The only time it is not Legal to steal a base is during a time out in the playing of the game. (I'm too small for football,,,,,so, I am a former backstop,,,,we did all kinds of things to try and trick runners,,,,but, that was a very long time ago)

They aren't running blindly, they are running according to the 3rd base coach's signal.

I have seen this last one called both ways,,,,sometimes it gets ruled as a home run,,,,,,,and most of the time is called "a ground rule double",,,,,,,,but, that might be because of a difference in the rules in force the years that they happened,,,,,,,I would lean towards the homer call, though,,,,,,it matches up as the complement rule to the times when a guy jumps and sticks his glove over the way, the ball tips the glove, but, he doesn't catch it. If they called that a ground rule double, then guys would be jumping all the time to try and "take away" the homer, even if they knew they couldn't catch it.

[Bigasshammm]

Q1 I'm not 100% but I believe that it would be a rundown situation if you went to first base first or whatever the last base is first. This rarely happens only time I could think would be a line drive but even then I believe the 1st basement would throw to second first then they'd throw back to 1st.

Q2 if it's not a force situation I believe the run would count. Which is again why the fielders would never let that happen. They'd give up the double play before risking the runner getting home.

Q3. The ball is live at any point it is in play and not in the umpires hands. Unless a player calls time then it is paused until put back in play. So theoretically if the catcher were to throw it to center field the runners could advance as they see fit.

Q4. The play would be live and a base runner could score if possible. Catchers are too good to let that happen but I'm sure in rare occasions it has. Catcher will always go for the easiest out though which would be at first. And the runner would not count if he crossed home before the hitter was called out at first either.

Q5. That's a home run. Unless they've changed the rules since replay came into effect. See Jose Canseco.

I'm not 100% on any of these but I've watch a lot of baseball and played for a bit. Rules may have changed though especially on the replay one.

[Don]

I will give it a whirl without getting long winded.

Q1. On a ground ball, this year the second basemen must touch 2nd base to get the runner running from 1st to 2nd out and then throw to 1st to get the batter out for a double play. In past years he (2nd basemen) just had to be in close proximity of 2nd to get the runner out coming from 1st to 2nd. The same applies on a ground ball up the first base line where the batter gets out (via touching 1st base) first then the throw to 2nd occurs. Stealing requires a tag (different scenario).

Q2. If there is a runner on 1st on a ground ball he must run to 2nd. See 2nd last sentence above.

Q3. Yes he can run. But it would have to be a major overthrow by the catcher. (The game is always on unless time is called...which includes visits to the mound).

Q4. On 3 and 2 with 2 outs only 4 things can realistically happen...strike out, ground out, fly out, or a hit (no worries of being doubled up for the offense). So send the runners and if a hit does occurr your runners have a head start. If no hit occurs no worries...bases loaded. It's rare to attempt a pick off with a 3 and 2 count with 2 outs.

Q5. Not entirely sure. I saw the hit you mention and was also perplexed. Each stadium has different rules as to what constitutes a home run based on their design (i.e. Green Monster vs. PNC Park...BIG difference). But if a player knocks the ball over the wall while attempting to make a catch BEFORE the ball hits the field of play I believe it's considered a home run...no different then if it hits said outfielders head or glove and is caught by a teammate the batter is out.

HTH.

Regards,

Don.

Btw...LETS GO BUCS!!

[Rex]

a couple of small things Don

if the runner is put out on first, there can't be a force out on second, because that runner then has the option of returning to first,,so, he has to be tagged out, same as if he were attempting to steal**

the other is that you left "or walked" out of your list of possible things that could happen on 3 and 2,,,it should be "strike out, ground out, fly out, hit,,,or walk" (and "hit batter awarded a bag" to that list)

**I saw this one once,,,,,the hit was one of those "very fast one hoppers to first" that would have probably broken the first baseman's face if it hit him, he was moving toward it and caught it self defense, with one foot on the bag,,,,,,,he whipped around and threw the ball to second, and the ump out there called it an out, but, the first, third and home umps ruled him safe,,,,because there was no force out on second on the table if there was no longer a man headed for first.

Any other time, the first baseman would have made sure he didn't step on the bag, and would have forced the guy out on second and then waited for the ball to return to him to get that guy

Edited July 29, 2015 by Rex

[Don]

a couple of small things Don

if the runner is put out on first, there can't be a force out on second, because that runner then has the option of returning to first,,so, he has to be tagged out, same as if he were attempting to steal

the other is that you left "or walked" out of your list of possible things that could happen on 3 and 2,,,it should be "strike out, ground out, fly out, hit,,,or walk" (and "hit batter awarded a bag" to that list)

But with a runner on first on a ground ball that runner must run to second. He cannot go back to first on a ball hit in play.

Indeed I forgot the walk you are correct. Bottom line on a 3 and 2 with 2 outs you send the runners no matter what.

cheers.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Don

[Rex]

he can if that bag is opened back up

that is the whole reason for you seeing the first baseman field the ball to second almost everytime it is hit to him, he knows he has to get the runners in order

that runner has to try to get to second as long as there is a man trying to get to first behind him,,,,,,as soon as that man is put out,,,,,the runner has his choices of bases again

[Don]

he can if that bag is opened back up

that is the whole reason for you seeing the first baseman field the ball to second almost everytime it is hit to him, he knows he has to get the runners in order

that runner has to try to get to second as long as there is a man trying to get to first behind him,,,,,,as soon as that man is put out,,,,,the runner has his choices of bases again

Actually the reason you go to second is to get the runner out of scoring position first before you get the non-threat at 1st and then attempt to get the runner out at second. Technically yes the runner at first on his way to second can go back to first if the batter was thrown out but honestly at the major league level that rarely if ever occurs as the speed of the game is just too quick. Again, getting caught attempting to steal is one thing, as is getting caught between 2nd and 3rd on a ground ball with both bases still open (in that case the runner at first often takes second leaving the runner caught in the rundown with only one option...3rd).

Exhibit A:

There really are many permutations and scenarios which is why I enjoy watching and playing the game.

Don.

EDIT: I was at the game in the Youtube clip...craziest thing I have seen in a long time!

Edited July 29, 2015 by Don

[Joel_W]

Your questions have been answered numerous times so the only one I'll comment on is whether it's a HR if the outfielder is hit in the head by the ball, then the ball goes over the fence. The current Major League rule is that if a defensive player is hit by a ball that doesn't touch the ground, then goes out of play in fair grounds, it's a HR. It doesn't matter if the ball wouldn't have cleared the fence without the aid of the defensive player. If the ball hits the ground 1st, then the player, then goes into the stands, it's a ground rules double.

Joel

[Moose135]

Q5: If a deep ball bounces off an out fielder's head or glove for a home run (which was originally not going to be a home run), is this a home run?

Yes, it has happened before...May 1993, a ball bounced off Jose Canseco's head and over the wall for a home run.

[niart17]

One thing I'd like to point out though, in your question 4 you said runners on 2nd and 3rd in a 2 out 3-2 situation are to run no matter what. That's not always true. If the runners are on 1st and 2nd yes because no matter what they will have to move, but not on 2nd and 3rd. Only if the ball is hit they will run and if it's a long fly ball to the outfield then typically yes they will definitely run. If it's a shallow fly close to their path they will sometimes hold up so they don't get tagged or thrown out after a potential missed fly or a short hop to the fielder (i.e. a short fly to left field where the left fielder could easily throw them out at home). Same thing if it's an in-field grounder they will probably run unless doing so puts them where the ball is when the baseman gets it, I've actually seen a good base runner bait a short stop into trying to tag him out instead of making the sure out at first and the runner made it back to 2nd before being tagged. It was obviously a fielder choice error. I like baseball because it can be like chess at times.

Bill

Edited July 30, 2015 by niart17

[Janissary]

Thanks everybody for helping me out with this. It all makes it clear to me now. The scenarios and the past examples you gave were most useful.

After a time out, does the home plate umpire (or somebody else) signal that the game is back on? Or is there no explicit signal, but the players just follow an unspoken understanding about when it starts back again. I realize almost all base runners are careful not to leave their bases (so not many opportunities to see extremely unusual outs exploiting time outs) but that has been unclear to me all along.

[niart17]

Thanks everybody for helping me out with this. It all makes it clear to me now. The scenarios and the past examples you gave were most useful.

After a time out, does the home plate umpire (or somebody else) signal that the game is back on? Or is there no explicit signal, but the players just follow an unspoken understanding about when it starts back again. I realize almost all base runners are careful not to leave their bases (so not many opportunities to see extremely unusual outs exploiting time outs) but that has been unclear to me all along.

I'm not sure what the MLB rules are but back when I played up until high school seems like I remember the perhaps un-written rule was the time out ended once the pitcher reset on the mound and/or when the batter reset into the batters box, depending on who called the time out. But I think the plate umpire is officially in charge of starting play.

Bill

[Don]

...After a time out, does the home plate umpire (or somebody else) signal that the game is back on?...

The home plate umpire will most often point to the pitcher. Its generally very subtle and not often seen but it signifies that the game is on again.

[ajd3530]

The modeling umpire will try to answer you questions. (I can only speak 100% certain for HS/College rules, MLB rules are different in a few areas.)

1. A order in which the runners become out does not matter, what matters is the way the runners must be put out. A force situation is simple. Once the a batted ball is put in play, the batter runner is FORCED to make it safely to first before he can advance any further. If a defensive player has the ball in his possession and simply touches a base a forced runner is advancing toward, that runner is out. Therefore, R1 (runner at first) is FORCED to go to 2nd because the batter runner must get to first. If there are runners on 1st and 2nd, R2 (runner on second) is FORCED to advance to 3rd because R1 is forced to go to second, and so on and so forth. IF you are in a force situation and a runner behind you is put out BEFORE you, you are no longer in a force situation, because you aren't FORCED to advance now.

In your situation, runner on first, once the ball is put into play, the batter runner going to 1st means R1 advancing toward 2nd is in a force situation. However, if the defense chooses to take the out at 1st base first, R1 is no longer in a force situation, because the runner that forced him to run is now out. Therefore, the defense must physically tag R1 to get him out.

2. What you are asking about here is called a timing play. In a nutshell, once the 2nd out has been recorded, ALL runners who are in force situations MUST advance to (and touch mind you) the next base safely before any runs crossing the plate can count.

In your example, (1st & 3rd, 1 out) once the ball is put in play, both the batter/runner and R1 (runner at first) are in force situations. The fielder takes the out at 1st for the 2nd out, thus killing force situation on R1 (because he is not FORCEd to advance anymore) therefore if the runner on 3rd scores before R1 is TAGGED out, the run counts.

3. During a baseball game, the ball has one of two statuses. Live or dead. During a live ball, all baseball plays (within the rules) can happen. During a dead ball, obvoisly they can't. In order for a ball to become dead one of a few things must happen.

A. Timeout is GRANTED by an umpire (not asked for by a player or coach)

B. The ball enters dead territory.

C. A batted ball becomes foul. (A flyball that makes its way into foul territory and is caught before it touches the ground IS NOT a foul ball, it is a live play.)

D. Before the ball makes it past a fielder that has an oppertunity to make a play on the ball, it comes in contact with a runner or an umpire (the latter never happens in the MLB, as all umpires are either in foul territory or beyond the basepath.)

E. A pitcher balks or makes an illegal pitch.

F. There are other rules violations that constitute the ball becoming dead.

Once a ball is dead, in order to become live, 3 things (in HS and college at least)must happen. The batter must be in the batters box, the catcher must be in the catchers box, and the pitcher must be in contact with the rubber. Then, the home plate umpire will point at the pitcher, and the ball will become live again.

So in your situation, assuming the throw back is off a live pitch and time was not called by an umpire, base runners could advance if they so wished.

4. This is more of a game play question than a rules question. In your situation, runners on 2nd and 3rd and a full count, advancing the base runners on the pitch would be ill-advised, because if the pitch happens to be ball 4, you have the runner from 3rd coming down the line to home,.where the catcher already has the ball in his possession.

A good rule of thumb is if the bases are loaded with two outs and a full count, to send the runners once the pitcher has committed to the plate (meaning he is past the point where he can make a legal pick-off move.) The reasoning behind this is in that situation, the pitch can only turn into 3 situations.

A. A batted ball, in which case the runners will be moving anyways,

B. A walk, in which case all runners will advance 90 feet anyways,

C. Or a strike out, in which case the inning is over and the runners advancing is a moot point.

Fun fact, with bases loaded and two outs, on a dropped 3rd strike, the catcher does not have to throw down to 1st in attempt to get the batter/runner out. Since the batter/runner advancing to 1st puts everyone in a force situation, the catcher simply has to step on home, getting R3 out on the force.