yeehah1 Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 20-02-08 Guys...I am making a P-51B...Shanty Irish of 362 FS, 357 FG, Spring 1944, flown by Lt. Gilbert M. O'Brien. My question is about the invasion stripes. I am using Cutting Edge sheet CED48281, Yoxford Boys Part2. The stripes on the fuselage are the half-type....they do not cover the fuselage as they normally would up the sides. My question is in regard to the stipes on the wings....it is clear how the stripes on the lower wing go, but what is not so clear is are the black and white invasion stripes on the upper wing as well or is it a single line on each wing? Also, the painting guide shows a single stripe on the tail-plane...would this be correct? It's not marked for which machine, but I am assuming it applies to Shanty Irish. Any help would be appreciated...also, I am intending to paint this one Olive Drab over Neutral Grey. Liam ( I have two others on the go....both are now shiny metal...will dull dow nthe wings.... ) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chuck1945 Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 The stripes on the tail surfaces (white on OD birds, black on nmf ones) were a Theater recognition marking. You say you are modeling the P-51B in the Spring, 1944 -since most of Spring occurs prior to 6 June.. If this is before 6 June, no invasion stripes would be on it. If we are still talking very late Spring/early Summer, like mid June, full upper surface invasion stripes would be appropriate. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
yeehah1 Posted February 21, 2008 Author Share Posted February 21, 2008 The stripes on the tail surfaces (white on OD birds, black on nmf ones) were a Theater recognition marking.You say you are modeling the P-51B in the Spring, 1944 -since most of Spring occurs prior to 6 June.. If this is before 6 June, no invasion stripes would be on it. If we are still talking very late Spring/early Summer, like mid June, full upper surface invasion stripes would be appropriate. 20-02-08 Hey Chuck: I reckon the "spring" is a misprint. As you say, if prior to June, then no stripes, but this ship is carrying them...unless it's meant ot read Spring 1945?? Either way, there is an illustration that shows a single white stripe on the upper main wing surface as well as on the tail-planes. Thanks for the info, I was hoping I could go with the full wing stripes.... Liam Quote Link to post Share on other sites
P-38 guy Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Maybe this will help. http://www.cebudanderson.com/357profileshantyb.htm Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chuck1945 Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Before the Invasion Stripe era, the theater id bands were also on the wings. From the profile, it would appear that when the upper surface invasion stripes were painted over, the white id bnd was redone. I think the 357FG was one of the groups that addded camo to nmf a/c in anticipation of deployments to France - even though that never happened with 8AF fighter units. Hence it is possible that in this case they reverted to the earlier id markings for the upper wings. Just speculation on my part though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Slartibartfast Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 B4 June 1944, theatre stripes above and below wing and horizontal tail surfaces, color as noted by Chuck. June 5, 1944 to roughly August 1944, stripes D-Day stripes on top and bottom of wings and encircling fuselage. 18" was call out for fighters though most were applied with whatever was available to slap on paint, thus stripes were more often than not sloppy in appearance. Theatre bands on horizontal stabs not affected by D-Day stripng technical order. After roughly August 1944, units were allowed to reapply camouflage over the stripes that could be seen from above, and most did so. Typically, camo applied on fuselage down to national marking while wing upper markings were completely painted over. I want to say the theatre band requirements were also cancelled about this time. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeC Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 (edited) OK, here's my take on the whole 8th AF P-51 recognition markings thing: Fin/rudder stripes (12"): 20 Feb 43-23 Mar 44 on all aircraft; after that, only on NMF aircraft until the end of 1944 when they were removed completely. Tailplane stripes (15"): 20 Feb 43, continued until Spring 1945, and whilst most were removed some aircraft still carried them after that. Wing stripes (15"): 20 Feb 43, then superseded by invasion stripes. Re-applied to upper surfaces when upper wing invasion stripes were removed, but not on all aircraft; cremoved generally spring 1945. Wing invasion stripes (18"): Removed from upper surface early July 1944, undersides early September 1944. Fuselage invasion stripes (18"): Removed from the top half (although the exact demarcation varied from aircraft to aircraft (and sometimes stripe to stripe on the same a/c!)) early July 1944; removed completely by the end of 1944. As ever, not all aircraft changed on the same day, so as ever check your refs for the particular aircraft. I put all that together on a simple chart in Excel, but that doesn't copy'n'paste to the forums. However, HTH. Edited February 21, 2008 by MikeC Quote Link to post Share on other sites
yeehah1 Posted February 22, 2008 Author Share Posted February 22, 2008 23-02-08 Thanks guys. I have just noticed a dark, horizontal stripe across the tail on Shanty Irish ( and one or two others on the sheet). I take it this is a painted over recognition band? If so, what would be the best way to get that impression|? Thanks for the advice so far... Liam Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeC Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 (edited) Liam, Are you airbrushing? If so, mask and paint the recognition band first, then leave it faintly visible when you do the topcoat, just like pre-shading. Alternatively, mix up a darker shade of the basic top-colour, then mask and paint the stripe after the topcoat. As a third alternative, "mist" some black onto the masked-up stripe area. My preference would be for the first, as you can vary how much shows: it can look really effective. It also replicates what actually happened - as you rightly say, I think you're referring to a painted-over recognition stripe. If you're brush-painting, sorry, can't help. Edited February 22, 2008 by MikeC Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rpeck Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 The link P-38 guy gave is a good one. The Cutting Edge decals can't remeber if they had the code right but it is G4-Q not O like the some of the other decal company's did.OOps The theatre stripes were painted out on some aircraft,it seems like it depended on the group.The 359 FG had theatre stripes almost to the end of the war. 357 FG had for the most part painted the theatre stripes out on the fin/rudder only. Invasion stripes on top of wing were painted out in July ,depending on group which part of July. If I remeber correctly the 9th AF removed them first. Hope this helps . Rick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
yeehah1 Posted February 25, 2008 Author Share Posted February 25, 2008 The link P-38 guy gave is a good one.The Cutting Edge decals can't remeber if they had the code right but it is G4-Q not O like the some of the other decal company's did.OOps The theatre stripes were painted out on some aircraft,it seems like it depended on the group.The 359 FG had theatre stripes almost to the end of the war. 357 FG had for the most part painted the theatre stripes out on the fin/rudder only. Invasion stripes on top of wing were painted out in July ,depending on group which part of July. If I remeber correctly the 9th AF removed them first. Hope this helps . Rick 25-02-08 Crapo. The decals on the Cutting Edge Sheet are G4-O! Any pics to show what the "Q" looked like as I might be able to fix it....?? Nuts Liam Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jaypack44 Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Hey, I'm doing the same A/C. thanks for the info guys! I'm using Superscale's sheet though, and there are several things I'll have to correct . From looking at the picture, I'd say that the invasion stripes were not painted on top of the wings/fuse (no evidence of repainting that I can see) (though I admit it's just a guess). Also, go with 18" for the stripes- that's what I did and they cover pretty much the exact same area as in the photo. The innermost white band also extends over the top of the wing (the theater band) all the bands should be 18", or 3/8" in 1:48. Does anyone know if there are any other pictures of this A/C? (besides the one in the 357th profiles link) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rpeck Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Here is the pilot http://aaron.smith.free.fr/CockpitShots/OBrien_G-362.JPG interesting how the kill markings are different sizes. Lt. O'brien went home it became "Little Feetie" G4-Q flown by Lt James Kenney, 4th photo down http://www.cebudanderson.com/vinphotoII07.htm There is a photo in the 357 FG books I have but I have no scanner or camera. The drawing is very close . Rick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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