Eric Larson Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Since we're kinda off the original subject anyway... Question: how do Gunze 'lacquers' work with Tamiya's lacquer thinner (the stuff in the small jug, with the yellow cap)? Unfortunately, even though there's half a dozen good hobby shops in town, none of them stock Mr.Color. I've got a bunch of Gunze paints I'd *like* to spray, but I'm a little fed up with the spiderwebbing and issues that come from thinning with "normal" lacquer thinner. I've heard that the silver bullet to all that is Mr. Color Leveling thinner... but none of the locals stock it, and I keep procrastinating when it comes to ordering overseas (wait two weeks for a bottle of thinner? meh... I'll get some later). But the locals *do* have Tamiya's lacquer thinner. I know that Leveling Thinner has a retarder in it, and I gather the normal Mr. Color thinner doesn't. Does Tamiya's lacquer thinner have a retarder? Does it perform any better than generic, hardware-store lacquer thinner? Or rather, enough better to justify being 4 - 5x the price? When you say you have "a bunch of Gunze paints.." I'm assuming from your comments that they are Mr. Color. If so, then yes, without some kind of retarder, you will get the spiderwebbing. The Mr. Color Leveling thinner contains a retarder and works very well. But, there are alternatives. If you can find it, Gunze's Mr. Retarder can be added to regular Mr. Color thinner, or conventional lacquer thinner, and works fine. An alternative to Mr. Retarder is...cigarette lighter fluid! This was a tip taught to me years ago by a fellow modeler who produced the most incredibly smooth enamel paint finishes on his aircraft. He added a couple drops of Zippo or Ronsol lighter fluid, which is just high-flash Naphtha, to the paint mix. I did some experimenting and found it works quite well as retarder for Mr. Color. If you want to try that, just make sure that when you to to buy the lighter fluid that it states that it is Naphtha. I hope this helps, Eric Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Larson Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Though I haven't tried Tamiya Lacquer Thinner, I often use PPG Automotive Acrylic Lacquer Retarder straight as an airbrushing thinner for Mr. Color. It's strong enough to dissolve Mr. Color and appears to have no adverse effect in terms of curing or causing the paint to crawl from surface tension. I find common lacquer thinners and especially PPG 876 way too hot, which is probably why you're getting the spider webs. I love DTL 876 thinner! I use it for thinning all my paints except those brands of acrylics that require water or alcohol. It works wonders as is with Tamiya paints. For use with Mr. Color, a retarder is needed. All you need for that is a couple drops of Gunze's Mr. Retarder or Zippo/Ronsol cigarette lighter fluid (naphtha) added to your paint cup. Cheers, Eric Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MarkW Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I love DTL 876 thinner! I use it for thinning all my paints except those brands of acrylics that require water or alcohol.It works wonders as is with Tamiya paints. For use with Mr. Color, a retarder is needed. All you need for that is a couple drops of Gunze's Mr. Retarder or Zippo/Ronsol cigarette lighter fluid (naphtha) added to your paint cup. Cheers, Eric Eric--are you saying naptha is essentially a retarder? Also, where can you get this wonder thinner? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Larson Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 (edited) Eric--are you saying naptha is essentially a retarder?Also, where can you get this wonder thinner? Yes, the naphtha is the retarder. The important thing is to get the right kind of naphtha. You can buy stuff at the hardware store called VM&P Naphtha. VM&P stands for Varnish Maker's and Painter's. You do NOT want this stuff. It is a fast drying solvent. You want what is known as high-flash naphtha, which is available by that name from Sherwin-Williams, but is also what lighter fluid is. The term "high-flash" means it has a high flash-point, which in turn means slower evaporation. Do a Google search on "high flash naphtha" and you will see that it's main use is...you guessed it...a paint retarder. http://www.sherwin-williams.com/oem/us/eng...sh_naphtha_150/ The "wonder thinner" (DTL 876) should be available from any auto paint supply shop that carries PPG products. It is expensive, the gallon I recently bought was $40, but you don't want to waste it cleaning your brushes. That's what the cheap stuff from Lowes or Walmart is for. So, a gallon of the good stuff, used only for thinning, will last a long time. Eric Edited July 31, 2009 by Eric Larson Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MoFo Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Thanks for all the info. Sounds like the most straightforward solution is to just bite the bullet and order som Leveling Thinner. Sure wish the LHS would start carrying Mr.Color, though... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GGoheen Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 I just thin Mr. Color with approx. 80% lacquer thinner and spray at around 12-15psi without the whole spiderwebbing thingy and have never had any issues (okay...stop, this isn't the Test Post Clubhouse) with lacquer thinner from the hardware store....really......never. Greg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CeeTee Posted August 1, 2009 Author Share Posted August 1, 2009 Mr. Color sounds like alot of work. You guys can't even agree on what thinner to use with it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
johnsan Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 No, not any work at all. Mr Color is the best and easiest paint I've ever used. There really isn't disagreement over thinner. The best thinner to use is Mr Color Leveling Thinner. The disagreement is over use of lower cost thinners. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Triarius Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 (edited) As if there weren't enough confusion about paint. "High flash naptha" = mineral spirits. I had not encountered that particular name before. As to why anyone would want to make an acrylic coating compatible with mineral spirits, when there are plenty of lacquers, and nearly all enamel paints, that are, I don't know. However, I'm beginning to think Mr. Color isn't an acrylic of any sort.…However, I take note of my sigfile… Edited August 1, 2009 by Triarius Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ScottD Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Mr. Color sounds like alot of work. You guys can't even agree on what thinner to use with it. ;) Its not, sprays fine with Tamiya Lacquer Thinner and Mr Color Thinner with Retarder. Its hardware store Lacquer thinner I've had issues with, mostly breaking down Tamiya paint to lumps of paint and attacking plastic. Works great to clean my airbrush/brushes with :wub: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ScottD Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 However, I'm beginning to think Mr. Color isn't an acrylic of any sort.…However, I take note of my sigfile… ;) The problem is that with paint, from what I understand and might be totaly wrong about, is that you have a pigment and binder...and its dependent on the binder of the paint on what type of solvent you can use with it. Acrylic doesn't automatically mean "water-base" or water clean up. They've been using Acrylic paint in the automotive industry for over 20 years now, mostly due to environmental concerns. here some more info Acyrlic Lacquer paint from wikipedia Lacquers using acrylic resin, a synthetic polymer, were developed in the 1950s. Acrylic resin is colourless, transparent thermoplastic, obtained by the polymerization of derivatives of acrylic acid. Acrylic is also used in enamels, which have the advantage of not needing to be buffed to obtain a shine. Enamels, however, are slow drying. The advantage of acrylic lacquers, which was recognized by General Motors, is an exceptionally fast drying time. The use of lacquers in automobile finishes was discontinued when tougher, more durable, weather- and chemical-resistant two-component polyurethane coatings were developed. The system usually consists of a primer, colour coat and clear topcoat, commonly known as clear coat finishes. It is extensively used for wooden finishing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Larson Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 (edited) As if there weren't enough confusion about paint. "High flash naptha" = mineral spirits. I had not encountered that particular name before.As to why anyone would want to make an acrylic coating compatible with mineral spirits, when there are plenty of lacquers, and nearly all enamel paints, that are, I don't know. However, I'm beginning to think Mr. Color isn't an acrylic of any sort.…However, I take note of my sigfile… Please note that my mention of naphtha is as a retarder, not a thinner. I only add a drop or two to the airbrush cup full of thinned paint. Naphtha and mineral spirits are not exactly the same thing but they are both petroleum products. This might help: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_Naphtha_and_M..._the_same_thing I admit that I love to experiment and that my results may vary with what others get. As someone else mentioned, when in doubt, it is best to go with the paint manufacturers thinner. Cheers, Eric Edited August 1, 2009 by Eric Larson Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Big Kev Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 I just thin Mr. Color with approx. 80% lacquer thinner and spray at around 12-15psi without the whole spiderwebbing thingy and have never had any issues (okay...stop, this isn't the Test Post Clubhouse) with lacquer thinner from the hardware store....really......never. Greg Now that's interesting. My experiences trying to use hardware store lacquer thinner with Mr Surfacer were terrible. Had to thin to at least 5:1 ratios to stop the spiderwebbing. With Mr Color Thinner, 50/50 does a great job, and was far less temperamental. I know Mr Surfacer is not Mr Color, but I'd wager they're similar in composition. Kev Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GGoheen Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Again....I've truly never had the problem using hardware store lacquer thinner with Mr. Color OR Mr. Surfacer....just be sure it's thinned down enough, your pressure is low (15psi max) and you work close to the surface of your model. Greg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Big Kev Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 [...] your pressure is low (15psi max) and you work close to the surface of your model. Well, perhaps that's the secret. I don't have the ability to spray below about 20PSI, due to a fault with my compressor. I switched away from using hardware lacquer thinner precisely because I didn't have to thin it anywhere near as much, and it works much better with the slightly higher pressures I need to spray at. And I guess not all hardware store lacquer thinners are the same. I really only have this issue with Mr Surfacer, and have used the generic stuff happily with Tamiya and Gunze acrylics. I've never used Mr Color paints, and am assuming heavily that they're similar to Mr Surfacer in composition and behaviour - so I'm probably completely wrong! Kev Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Triarius Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Please note that my mention of naphtha is as a retarder, not a thinner. I only add a drop or two to the airbrush cup full of thinned paint. Naphtha and mineral spirits are not exactly the same thing but they are both petroleum products. One of the problems with organic chemistry is that there are at least three sets of nomenclature: The old, original one developed starting in the late 1800s and continued in use through the early 1900s, a regularized and systematic system developed in the early to mid 1900s, and the more recent revision in current use. None are well related to their predicessors. Unfortunately, the earliest, least consistent system is the one that remains in popular and commercial use, and the nomenclature varies geographically as well. Hence the confusion here. "High flash naptha" is mineral spirits. "Varnish and Paint Makers Naptha" is a slightly different brew, and the more generic "naptha" often refers to either. By the way, my source isn't any "wiki"â€â€notoriously unreliable sources. I use the Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, my organic chemistry texts, and reliable academic and professional sourcesâ€â€and because of the confusing changes and variations in terminology, I still make mistakes now and then. A retarder is a chemical added to paint in very small amounts, generally in the range of less than 1 to 3 percent. Retarders inhibit the polymer cross linking (curing) that forms the continuous film of polymerizing paints. What you are doing is using a low volatility solvent to slow drying, which is definitely not the same thing. However, if the coating is a true lacquer (does not cross link or polymerize) then such a procedure has the same effect as a retarder, since lacquers do not cure, only dry. Unfortunately, this gets us no closer to answering the question of what Mr. Color really is. I hope to talk to my chemist friend who's still active in the industry sometime next week. Hopefully he can shed enough light on the matter to clear it up to our satisfaction, as actually analysis is WAY to expensive. I'm going to post separately on "lacquer thinner." Again. Please spread the word on that post to anyone who uses the stuff, since I've lost count of how many times I've posted the same thing. It is the one thing everyone needs to know about that solvent. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MarkW Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Unfortunately, this gets us no closer to answering the question of what Mr. Color really is ...but does it now answer that you could use plain old mineral spirits as a retarder instead of lighter fluid (where lighter fluid could be used as a retarder)? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Larson Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 ...but does it now answer that you could use plain old mineral spirits as a retarder instead of lighter fluid (where lighter fluid could be used as a retarder)? From what Triarius has posted, it sounds like it would. Only one way to find out for sure, I'll give it a try! As I mentioned before, I love to experiment. :-) Cheers, Eric Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Triarius Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 ...but does it now answer that you could use plain old mineral spirits as a retarder instead of lighter fluid (where lighter fluid could be used as a retarder)? Once again, it's not a true retarder. It's a slow evaporating solvent. You can do similar things by using a small amount of distilled water added to Tamiya that's been thinned with 90 isopropyl, for example, because water evaporates more slowly than the alcohol. I often do that when spraying Tamiya acrylics in the winter, when it's very dry. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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