Little Bird conversion?

[CorsairMan]

Hello - title says it all. I know the academy kit is of a pretty early model. I would love to do one of those little birds like I saw in blackhawk down (MH-6?). Is it worth the effort? Looks like the main differences are the tail and the 'benches'.

Edited October 9, 2009 by CorsairMan

[Avus]

Hello - title says it all. I know the academy kit is of a pretty early model. I would love to do one of those little birds like I saw in blackhawk down (MH-6?). Is it worth the effort? Looks like the main differences are the tail and the 'benches'.

Sadly it's not that easy: the OH-6 has a four bladed rotor while the MH-6 has five and the instrument panel is different, too.

It's a feasible modification but it involves quite some work.

[Loach Driver]

Which kit are you talking about? The only Academy kit I know of is the 1/48 kit based on the Hughes 500D. This has the 5-blade main rotor system and the T-configuration tail plane. This should be a good starting point for the Little Bird which appears in Blackhawk Down (MH-6J). It will require a bit of conversion work but it would be a good project to start on to learn new skills.

LD.

[HeavyArty]

Not sure what kits he means, but the topic says OH-6A. If he has an OH-6A and not the Hughes 500D, it is, as Avus says, a major conversion.

Edited October 9, 2009 by HeavyArty

[CorsairMan]

I was thinking of getting the 1/35 Cayuse from Academy... but that sounds like a huge conversion effort. Thanks for the info guys!!

[11bee]

I was thinking of getting the 1/35 Cayuse from Academy... but that sounds like a huge conversion effort. Thanks for the info guys!!

Corsair,

If you are going 35th scale, just pick up the Dragon AH-6J. It is pretty decent out of the box. It'd be way too much work to use the OH-6A kit as the basis. If you want to convert the Dragon kit to an MH-6, Cobra has a nice resin update set. The planks on the Cobra are non-standard but these can be scratchbuilt easily. The rest of the Cobra parts are very nicely done and can also be used to upgrade the Dragon AH-6 kit as well.

Regards,

John

[HeavyArty]

I was thinking of getting the 1/35 Cayuse from Academy...

You must mean the 1/35 OH-6A Cayuse by either Dragon or the rebox of it by Italeri. Academy doesn't do a 1/35 OH-6A.

I agree with 11bee though, get a Dragon 1/35th AH-6J and the Cobra Company MH-6J conversion set. It comes out great. Both Avus and I have used them for our MH-6J projects.

[Chief Snake]

Corsair,

If you are going 35th scale, just pick up the Dragon AH-6J. It is pretty decent out of the box. It'd be way too much work to use the OH-6A kit as the basis. If you want to convert the Dragon kit to an MH-6, Cobra has a nice resin update set. The planks on the Cobra are non-standard but these can be scratchbuilt easily. The rest of the Cobra parts are very nicely done and can also be used to upgrade the Dragon AH-6 kit as well.

Regards,

John

The planks included in the Cobra Company MELB MH-6J set are the second generation set of planks that I have seen. They were mastered off of direct photographs that I had. The first generation that I'm aware of looked like half round sections of small barrels or drums with a smooth flat plate affixed across the top. You can see these in the thread on the AH-6C. The third and current generation are used on the MH-6M and look like true planks and have the mounts redesigned.

DML and Dragon both boxed the AH-6J which had the 4 bladed main rotor. This kit will work for either the armed AH-6J (out of the box) or the MH-6J using the available resin conversion set. Getting to the MH-6M in 1/35th scale is really hard because of the 5 bladed and 6 bladed rotor and rotorheads and the four bladed tail rotor that the various working aircraft had. The other differences can be worked out by simple scratch building.

Chris M

aka Chief Snake

Edited October 10, 2009 by Chief Snake

[11bee]

The planks included in the Cobra Company MELB MH-6J set are the second generation set of planks that I have seen. They were mastered off of direct photographs that I had. The first generation that I'm aware of looked like half round sections of small barrels or drums with a smooth flat plate affixed across the top. You can see these in the thread on the AH-6C. The third and current generation are used on the MH-6M and look like true planks and have the mounts redesigned.

DML and Dragon both boxed the AH-6J which had the 4 bladed main rotor. This kit will work for either the armed AH-6J (out of the box) or the MH-6J using the available resin conversion set. Getting to the MH-6M in 1/35th scale is really hard because of the 5 bladed and 6 bladed rotor and rotorheads and the four bladed tail rotor that the various working aircraft had. The other differences can be worked out by simple scratch building.

Chris M

aka Chief Snake

Hey Chris,

I wish you could take a shot at the AH-6M, it is a Littlebird on steroids! However, as you mentioned, there are so many differences I think it would be a real challenge. I was pondering scratchbuilding one but the latest versions have far too many changes. If anyone is interested, this thread has a couple of cool pictures of a Mike model and a list of the changes.

http://aeroscale.kitmaker.net/modules.php?...8485&page=1

No way I could build something like that. If I do another Littlebird, I think it will either be a Prime Chance-era AH-6F or the AH-6J model. I'll be using a bunch of your parts if I go with the J model.

I don't doubt what you said about the planks that came with your kit, it's just that I've never seen a single picture of an MH-6 with that type. Doesn't mean that much since these helos don't get out in public that often and pics are rare. Every MH-6J I have seen pictures of has the solid, one piece rectangular planks. The new M model has a smaller, plastic version that is hollow on the underside.

Edited October 10, 2009 by 11bee

[HeavyArty]

DML and Dragon both boxed the AH-6J which had the 4 bladed main rotor. This kit will work for either the armed AH-6J (out of the box) or the MH-6J using the available resin conversion set. Getting to the MH-6M in 1/35th scale is really hard because of the 5 bladed and 6 bladed rotor and rotorheads and the four bladed tail rotor that the various working aircraft had.

Chris must be posting before having coffee in the morning again. Just to clarify, the the AH/MH-6J has the 5 blade rotor, and is correctly portrayed in the DML/Dragom kit. The MH-6M has the 6 blade rotor which would have to be scratched up. The extra blade is in the AH-6J kit, but you would have to build the 6 blade rotor head.

[Chief Snake]

Hey Chris,

I wish you could take a shot at the AH-6M, it is a Littlebird on steroids! However, as you mentioned, there are so many differences I think it would be a real challenge. I was pondering scratchbuilding one but the latest versions have far too many changes. If anyone is interested, this thread has a couple of cool pictures of a Mike model and a list of the changes.

http://aeroscale.kitmaker.net/modules.php?...8485&page=1

No way I could build something like that. If I do another Littlebird, I think it will either be a Prime Chance-era AH-6F or the AH-6J model. I'll be using a bunch of your parts if I go with the J model.

I don't doubt what you said about the planks that came with your kit, it's just that I've never seen a single picture of an MH-6 with that type. Doesn't mean that much since these helos don't get out in public that often and pics are rare. Every MH-6J I have seen pictures of has the solid, one piece rectangular planks. The new M model has a smaller, plastic version that is hollow on the underside.

Well if you go back to the article that you quoted in this text and scroll down to the second photo, the one with troops on planks, then look at the planks you'll see that they are the second series composite offset plank.

All the changes that quoted are not that hard to come up with. I found the four bladed tail rotor in the DML kit of the LA Sheriff MD500E. The real bugger is the main rotor head. There are no pictures of it and no dimensions for it that have been posted either as photos or text. I don't want to try and guess about that as I'm sure people would paste my butt if I goofed.

Chris M

aka Chief Snake

Edited October 10, 2009 by Chief Snake

[11bee]

Well if you go back to the article that you quoted in this text and scroll down to the second photo, the one with troops on planks, then look at the planks you'll see that they are the second series composite offset plank.

All the changes that quoted are not that hard to come up with. I found the four bladed tail rotor in the DML kit of the LA Sheriff MD500E. The real bugger is the main rotor head. There are no pictures of it and no dimensions for it that have been posted either as photos or text. I don't want to try and guess about that as I'm sure people would paste my butt if I goofed.

Chris M

aka Chief Snake

They also mention that the fuselage is longer. To me, that would be a show-stopper, I don't have the skills to deal with that. I'm sure some of the other experten on this forum could deal with it though.

John

[Loach Driver]

They also mention that the fuselage is longer. To me, that would be a show-stopper, I don't have the skills to deal with that. I'm sure some of the other experten on this forum could deal with it though.

John

I think the fuselage extension mentioned in the list of needed modifications on the Aeroscale site is, strictly speaking, not a fuselage extension at all. The tail rotor gearbox, mounted on the end of the tailboom, incorporates an extension to move the tail rotor blades to the rear, ensuring clearance from the main rotor disc. I had a quick look at the Dragon AH-6J and I don't think they have included the modified part to move the tailrotor rearwards. It would be a fairly simple modification to scratchbuild in any of the major scales though. The MD530F was the first helicopter to get this gearbox extension and it was carried over to the Little Birds based on the MD530F airframe, like the A/MH-6J and MELB (and the AH-6G, I think). There is a photo over in the AH-6C post with pictures of an F and G model flying together and the gearbox extension is visible.

LD.

[11bee]

I think the fuselage extension mentioned in the list of needed modifications on the Aeroscale site is, strictly speaking, not a fuselage extension at all. The tail rotor gearbox, mounted on the end of the tailboom, incorporates an extension to move the tail rotor blades to the rear, ensuring clearance from the main rotor disc. I had a quick look at the Dragon AH-6J and I don't think they have included the modified part to move the tailrotor rearwards. It would be a fairly simple modification to scratchbuild in any of the major scales though. The MD530F was the first helicopter to get this gearbox extension and it was carried over to the Little Birds based on the MD530F airframe, like the A/MH-6J and MELB (and the AH-6G, I think). There is a photo over in the AH-6C post with pictures of an F and G model flying together and the gearbox extension is visible.

LD.

LD,

That's very interesting. I didn't know that and will have to keep that in mind if/when I build another Littlebird. I assumed that the Mike model had a longer fuselage because they referenced a larger rear cargo compartment and an enlarged door opening. Hard to tell from the pics. Anyway, given that the latest Mikes have that exterior windscreen mounted around the pilot's door opening, I think that truly puts it out of the range of my scratchbuilding capabilities. I don't know how I could fabricate that piece accurately. Too bad though, like I said, the M is definitely a cool looking helo, especially with the 50 cal mounted.

Regards,

John

[Chief Snake]

I think the fuselage extension mentioned in the list of needed modifications on the Aeroscale site is, strictly speaking, not a fuselage extension at all. The tail rotor gearbox, mounted on the end of the tailboom, incorporates an extension to move the tail rotor blades to the rear, ensuring clearance from the main rotor disc. I had a quick look at the Dragon AH-6J and I don't think they have included the modified part to move the tailrotor rearwards. It would be a fairly simple modification to scratchbuild in any of the major scales though. The MD530F was the first helicopter to get this gearbox extension and it was carried over to the Little Birds based on the MD530F airframe, like the A/MH-6J and MELB (and the AH-6G, I think). There is a photo over in the AH-6C post with pictures of an F and G model flying together and the gearbox extension is visible.

LD.

You know, after looking at a lot of pictures this is exactly what I suspected. Something involving the overall length of the aircraft would most likely involve the tail boom. Any "new" length involving the body would require a completely new tooling of the airframe and I doubted that was the case. I went and looked at the very few pictures I have of an M and LD is correct, the T/R is extended to the rear and out of the main rotor disc rotation. The disc diameter is likely increased a bit due to adding the additional blade, the main head has to be larger to accommodate this.

Now if some enterprising soul could come with good clean and clear illustrations and measurements of the main rotor head, something could actually happen as an aftermarket project.

But I'm not convinced the movement is to avoid clashing with the main rotor. If you take a look at static aircraft you can pretty clearly see that the plane of the main rotor is substantially above the ARC of the tail rotor. Unless there is latitude in the main rotor plane that would cause it to clash with the tail rotor because control input, then the move clearly makes sense. A possibility is that it has something to do with control input characteristics and limitations. The MH-6M has that enlarged tail fin, what does the MD530F have back there? Whatever the reason it doesn't have an effect on our model making....

Chris M

aka Chief Snake

Edited October 11, 2009 by Chief Snake

[Loach Driver]

Chris, as far as I know, the six-blade head was lifted straight from an MD600N and used on the MELB. According to the MD website, the rotor diameter for the MD600N is 27.5 FT (8.4m) versus 26.4 FT (8.1m) for the MD530F. I am doing some research for an H-6 magazine article and I might be able to get some info from Boeing. If I get any useful stuff that could help with a conversion set, I'll let you know. You could even go the whole hog and do a set for this;

http://blog.flightstory.net/1380/boeing-ah...s-first-flight/

John, given how well your C is coming along, I doubt you would have too much trouble with an MELB conversion. Getting the info is probably the problem. I only noticed yesterday that the rear door is an enlarged opening on the MELB. It looks like the rear of the door opening is right at the rear cabin bulkhead.

LD.

P.S. Does anyone know if the FLIR/Sensor Turret on the AH-6i is the same as the Sensor Turret on the MQ-1 Predator? If so, the Italeri Predator kit could be useful for an AH-6X conversion.

Edited October 11, 2009 by Loach Driver

[Chief Snake]

Chris, as far as I know, the six-blade head was lifted straight from an MD600N and used on the MELB. According to the MD website, the rotor diameter for the MD600N is 27.5 FT (8.4m) versus 26.4 FT (8.1m) for the MD530F. I am doing some research for an H-6 magazine article and I might be able to get some info from Boeing. If I get any useful stuff that could help with a conversion set, I'll let you know. You could even go the whole hog and do a set for this;

http://blog.flightstory.net/1380/boeing-ah...s-first-flight/

John, given how well your C is coming along, I doubt you would have too much trouble with an MELB conversion. Getting the info is probably the problem. I only noticed yesterday that the rear door is an enlarged opening on the MELB. It looks like the rear of the door opening is right at the rear cabin bulkhead.

LD.

P.S. Does anyone know if the FLIR/Sensor Turret on the AH-6i is the same as the Sensor Turret on the MQ-1 Predator? If so, the Italeri Predator kit could be useful for an AH-6X conversion.

LD, the overall diameter is helpful in scaling the rotor disc for a model. What is key right now is getting the diameter of the rotorhead itself. Considering it's a six bladed system then the centerline of each grip and blade rests at 60 degrees from one another ( 360 deg disc divided by 6). For modeling sake I suppose I could draw a matrix on paper and cut the grips away from an existing model head then lay them on line of the matrix. Closing them in to center is eventually going to give me "circle" that would serve as the body of the hub. One way of getting there but it sure is shaky for realistic presentation.

Chris M

aka Chief Snake

[Chief Snake]

You must mean the 1/35 OH-6A Cayuse by either Dragon or the rebox of it by Italeri. Academy doesn't do a 1/35 OH-6A.

I agree with 11bee though, get a Dragon 1/35th AH-6J and the Cobra Company MH-6J conversion set. It comes out great. Both Avus and I have used them for our MH-6J projects.

Ready for an MH-6M? I finished out the six bladed main rotor head and I'm shifting my attention to the tail boom which needs some diameter correction and the tail rotor gearbox extension plus the four bladed tail rotor. Thanks to Dave H for the great pictures that allowed me to get answers to serious arraignment questions I had.

Chris M

aka Chief Snake

[Loach Driver]

Ready for an MH-6M?

Chris M

aka Chief Snake

Yes. You can put me down for one in 1/35th scale. If you do a 1/72nd set as well, I'd take two of those. Thanks.

LD.

[HeavyArty]

Awesome, looks like an M added to the collection may be in order.

[11bee]

Ready for an MH-6M? I finished out the six bladed main rotor head and I'm shifting my attention to the tail boom which needs some diameter correction and the tail rotor gearbox extension plus the four bladed tail rotor. Thanks to Dave H for the great pictures that allowed me to get answers to serious arraignment questions I had.

Chris M

aka Chief Snake

Chris,

Sign me up for one as well. Question - are you going to provide decals for this conversion? I don't think your existing SOAR decals will work since the new markings are gunship grey and are now "U.S. Army" instead of the older style "United States Army".

Regardless, I am very exited about this kit and can't wait to see how it looks.

BTW, would we be able to make an AH-6M version using your kit and the Dragon AH-1J? I haven't really seen that many pictures of the AH-6M and am not sure if the weapons plank and the mini-gun / rocket pods setup of the J would work for the newer M model. Thought I read somewhere that the M's are using .50 cal machine guns instead of the mini's.

John

Edited October 20, 2009 by 11bee

[Avus]

Ready for an MH-6M?

Yes, yes, yes!

Yes, I am! It appears I won't need to work from scratch!

Thanks a bunch!