Bobo1953 Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Hi everybody. Now that i am at a forced standby on my tom patton's skyraider as the decals aren't arriving, i have too much time to develop doubtful questions. So here's today's paranoia: should i paint the landing gear doors rims red? I have seen some that had it, but in the majority of the pics they're just absent. And it is so also on another va -176 ad-h. What do you guys think of this issue? Thanks in advance. Ciao...and happy modeling! Bobo. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
peter havriluk Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 I've noticed red rims on P-47 doors, also. Nice if we could obtain an overall explanation/definition. I'm afraid I have nothing to help with an answer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finn Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Here is a VA-196 A-1 on the 65-66 cruise: http://images.google.com/hosted/life/1f6b9d55b54cbb49.html you can see the red on the bottom of the door. Jari Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bobo1953 Posted July 11, 2017 Author Share Posted July 11, 2017 Hello jari. Thank you for the effort, but the squadron is 176, not 196. Also, i really can't make out no red rim on door; there's a red rectangle in the upper left, but for the position as well as for dimensions it doesn't look a gear door rim, really... Thanks also to peter: yes, we all know the undefiniteness of these matters. That's why one asks in the forum where more knowledgeable and numerous people can -try and...- give an answer to our dilemmas... Ciao...and happy modeling! Bobo. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finn Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 (edited) Bobo i know it wasn't the squadron you were looking for but it is an example that some did have the red on the doors. If you click on the pic you'll get a larger image and you'll see the red on the bottom of the door, just to the right of the tag on the nose fuze. edit: here is a VA-176 A-1, in b&w but you can see the bottom edge is a dark colour, most likely red: http://www.navysite.de/cruisebooks/cv11-66/271.htm Jari Edited July 11, 2017 by Finn Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bobo1953 Posted July 11, 2017 Author Share Posted July 11, 2017 Ok jari. wilco, but now i'm in the aosta valley and got no pc, so on the small mobile display i can't see it. I will check when back at home, in a couple of weeks. Thank you very much indeed. Best ciaos. Bobo. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Slartibartfast Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Tommy Thomason disusses pinch points and when red began. Tailspintopics.com Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bobo1953 Posted July 12, 2017 Author Share Posted July 12, 2017 Sorry, i have found a lot of interesting stuff on tailspin/tailhook topics, nut i can't find the gear doors discussion. Must say that i'm on holidays so i am surfing the web with the limited resources of my mobile. Maybe if you had a more direct link to the subject... Thank you so much anyway for your interest in my question. Best ciaos. Bobo. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ziggyfoos Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 Think they're referring to this page: http://tailspintopics.blogspot.com/2012/10/painting-crush-points-red.html There is no definitive answer for that period. The best bet is to find photos of the particular squadron/timeframe you're looking for. One squadron (or even only some of their planes) may have the red edging, while others may not. The pics from the cruise book like Finn linked too seems to show that 176 on that cruise appeared to have the red edging at least on the main gear doors. Another showing dark edges: http://www.navysite.de/cruisebooks/cv11-66/270.htm Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rex Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 Ziggy hit on something that gets left out of the usual "was it red or not" discussions. The presence or absence of Red gear door edges usually depended on the Squadron, and who was in command of it. It didn't often vary from aircraft to aircraft in the same squadron in the same time period. It could and did vary from year to year, though. This means that VA-176 could have it, in the same year that VA-15 didn't. (it wasn't a USN or USMC thing, either,,,,,right after someone typed that "Marine Phantoms didn't do it",,,,,,I found 25 photos of each way,,,,,,,In a book about Marine Phantoms) Then, next cruise, with a different person deciding the issue,,,,it could be VA-15 with them, and VA-176 without. But, anyone that spent any time in Navair at all would agree that the guy in charge didn't say "paint that one with Red gear edges, and leave that one in White." You would get a single aircraft now and then that would vary from "the way we do it here", if it was a replacement aircraft from someone else. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finn Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 As Rex said, it varied as you can see in this pic: http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f356ea60e829b905.html 205 doesn't have red on the nose gear door while 210, the same squadron, does. Jari Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bobo1953 Posted July 12, 2017 Author Share Posted July 12, 2017 Thank you very much ziggy. I got it, and though not solving the problem with tom patton's a/c it is very interesting and at any rate, as rex points out (thanks to you too, rex!) It eventually depended on period and squadron. As for va-176 during its 1966 vietnam cruise, summing up all the photos (few) i was able to collect i believe that i can conclude with a certain degree of likeliness that the red edging was not present on the skyraiders. Again, heartfelt thanks to all who participated in or will further contribute on this subject. Happy modeling to all! Best ciaos. Bobo. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ziggyfoos Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 2 minutes ago, Bobo1953 said: As for va-176 during its 1966 vietnam cruise, summing up all the photos (few) i was able to collect i believe that i can conclude with a certain degree of likeliness that the red edging was not present on the skyraiders. You mean red edging WAS present? From the photos posted here from the cruise book I'd say they did have red. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bobo1953 Posted July 12, 2017 Author Share Posted July 12, 2017 Ziggy, please read more carefully: i said "the red edging was NOT present". USS Intrepid made another cruise in '67; perhaps the pics you refer to are from that cruise where btw va-176 wasn't aboard. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ziggyfoos Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 I know what you wrote, I thought you mistyped. The pics Finn and I linked to are directly from 1966 Intrepid cruise of VA-176, not 1967 or another squadron. Both photos linked to previously show red edged doors. Again, here they are: http://www.navysite.de/cruisebooks/cv11-66/270.htm http://www.navysite.de/cruisebooks/cv11-66/271.htm They are from VA-176 section of the 1966 Intrepid cruise book: http://www.navysite.de/cruisebooks/cv11-66/index.html From these there was red edging. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bobo1953 Posted July 13, 2017 Author Share Posted July 13, 2017 (edited) My apologies ziggy. And again thanks for your dedication. Nevertheless, the dark area you see on the lower edge of the gear door is way too wide and extended into the insides to be interpreted as the regular red fillets. Also, they are not continued on the vertical sides of the door (fore and aft). I might be wrong, but unless they are non-regulamentar applications of the navy orders, i'd hardly think of those big dark areas as the red rims...btw one should see them also on the front/rear edge of the main as well as on the front doors...? Edited July 13, 2017 by Bobo1953 Precisation Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ziggyfoos Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 It is red. They're not "too wide" - that's how it was on the A-1's doors, this is shown on other photos of A-1s. There is that same dark (red) trim on the rear of the door that can be seen in one of the photos, it's not as wide as the bottom, but it is there. The line width I believe is also related to the door shape, where there's a flatter land/lip I think on the bottom of the door rather than the front/back (similar to the A-4s). Again, the earlier photo Finn posted showed another A-1 that had same width of red (in color), again check it out: http://images.google.com/hosted/life/1f6b9d55b54cbb49.html And here's another one showing same wide red: http://www.navysite.de/cruisebooks/cv11-67/128.htm Don't know how to convince it. In the end it's your model and if you don't want red then don't put red. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ziggyfoos Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 more examples showing similar edging... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bobo1953 Posted July 13, 2017 Author Share Posted July 13, 2017 Dear ziggy. First out let me say that i LOVE the red trim of the white gear doors etc. on the navy a/cs. My reluctance derives from the fact that after taking some pain on the subject i had come to the conclusion that va-176 in '66 had no red edging. Pics aside, also very few models you find online have this characteristic; so few that i thought it was just the modeler's liberty because he/she liked it that way. Then in came you and jari asserting the opposite. You must admit that it was quite a shock for me, thence my resistence against this. Btw i did learn a lot of new things, for instance why the f-101 is the only usaf fighter i know that has gear doors etc. red: because it's a mc donnell! In the end, ziggy, thanks to your kind and passionate perseverance and consistency i must change my mind: ok, you're most likely right, there will be a beautiful red edging on the gear doors of tom patton's ad-h! Ziggy, i don't want to abuse your kind patience, but as we have fared till here: there's no pic of a skyraider from behind. Thence tell me what do you think: will the red edging apply also to the front door? Per rule of consequence and consistecy, it should; i don't intend to start it all over again, but what do you -and our followers if any- think about that? big big thanks. Bobo. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rex Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 I don't know of any photos online of Skyraiders from the rear that let you see the "Landing gear strut door", because in most photos either the wing or the fuel tanks block the view. But the last photo in Ziggy's last post show what happens with the Skyraider doors. The rounded portion of the door is White, because it is not the moving pinch point, it becomes the part that gets "pinched onto" by the two side doors when they close. And the Red pinch point paint only goes on the part that is going to move and pinch you. So, on the rounded "front door", the bottom is White,,,,,,,but, the back of the two straight edges is Red, because it closes up against the gear well sides. And those vertical edges are constructed just like the huge "lips" on the two large doors. If you take your model's doors, and visualize how the doors close in sequence, you will see what I mean. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bobo1953 Posted July 13, 2017 Author Share Posted July 13, 2017 Rex, your point is very clear and definitive. A true "golden rule". I believe i got exactely what you mean...and the meanimg of it! Fortunately i haven't placed the landing gear yet, so it will be much easier to paint the red edges of the doors :-) Thank you very much! I am learning so many things going around this "red rims" affair...! And i realize that in aeronautics there's a whole lot more to learn hidden behind apparently trivial issues... Thanks really a lot rex! Best ciaos and happy modeling! Bobo. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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