VH-53D Help (Solved) - Now with added VH-3A and D content!

[andyf117]

Thanks for that link, Dutch; quite clearly shows exactly what Bill described - the -53 departing, then VH-3Ds 3, 2 and 1 arriving and disgorging in sequence!

Another Reagan-era YT video that I found a while ago has provided some useful detail for another build which I've currently got underway...

[Loach Driver]

On 8/18/2023 at 8:52 PM, Bill K said:

 In the 70's there was only one green side helicopter to serve on the white top side. (Cage) This was MX-15 a SH-3G, 148043, which flew as the White aircraft at the sub station at the old NAS Anacostia. These were alert birds in case of the big one or other emergency. Three A/C in total, Gold, Red and White. I was the Crew Chief of MX-15 on the green side. When I was a Crew Chief on the White side, Top Hillard sent MX-15 to the presidential side I was again assigned as the crew chief. I trained a future CO of HMX on that A/C at Anacostia. When the VH-3Ds went in service MX-15 went back to the Navy. It is now at the air museum at the old NAS Barbers Point, Hawaii.

 

There was a time back then when the SH-3Gs and CH-53s pulled a lot more of the support missions for the grunts, officers school and SAR missions. 

 

Of the 3 SH-3Gs two had troop seats and only MX-14 had some VIP seating but nothing like the VH-3s.

 

Of the VH-3As some had the sliding rear door and some had a rear air-stair door where the sliding door would be. Even some of the paint jobs were different in some small ways. The color was 50% USMC green and 50% Army green. Very good looking green. Any questions feel free to contact me.

 

Thanks for all this fascinating information. Do I understand this correctly - MX-15 would have served the same purpose as the CH-3B 52-12571? As in "If the bomb drops, MX-15 goes to the South Lawn and picks up the Commander-in-Chief and whisks him away to Air Force One or to a secure location (bunker)? If so, it's interesting to now have two different Sea Kings identified that were assigned to just such a role! 👍

 

Here is one of your photos of MX-15.

 

 

 

LD.

[Bill K]

MX-15 when it was on the Presidential side was assigned to the sub station at the old NAS Anacostia along with 2 other A/C. Normally all three would be VH-3A's. MX-15 remained a SH-3G. To receive a VH code the aircraft would have to be assigned full time to the white side. VH-3A/D's or VH-1N's.  During an alert called an Opal, The Gold A/C, Knight Hawk 3 would go the the White House. On a drill it didn't land but flew it's route. I won't say what route because it may still be classified. The Red A/C, Knight Hawk 4 flew a different route to its classified pick up points. The White  A/C, Knight Hawk 5, Which MX-15 would have been had other Route Packs to fly. Some Opel's we did not fly but were turning and burning at Anacostia. All around DC from the air were ID markers. Got to be you knew them like the back of your hand. There were several points that were classified in the mountains west of DC. Dec of 1974 a Commercial airline crashed into the mountain that had one of the more secret places at that time. That caused a stir. At the time you only talked about these places in the hanger. A couple of these places I saw on cable TV over the last several years so some are not so secret anymore. During an Opel no helicopters at Quantico had a part if it was a drill. If it was the reel deal I think more A/C would have flown.

The reason that a SH-3G went over to the white side was a shortage of aircraft due to the mission increasing. There were times that aircraft went to Florida and California at the same time due to the travels of the President. Quantico would be quiet empty then. The SH-3G's didn't go on these trips because none of these helicopters had APP's. They needed a power unit to start. They could start on the battery but that had to be preformed correctly. Most of the pilots didn't practice a battery start. The 3G's also had the Navy style throttle quadrant with the acorn starter button. Unless the pilots flew the 3G's a lot, they had problems with the start. A lot of times I would start the engines because I had the feel for them. MX-15 was a stock aircraft. Bench troop seats and the sliding door on the aft right side. MX-15 on the white side had only limited Radios to communicate with the secret service. It was a portable large hand set. When it went back to the green side the radio was removed. 

Until the VH-3D's went in service, the white A/C at Anacostia was always a sliding door white top VH-3A. It did have a VIP interior that was a little different from the VH-3A's with the 2 air stairs doors. The VH-3D's all had air stairs doors and both were on the left side. The rear door on the VH-3A was an accident waiting to happen. The lower flunkies in the rear of the A/C would fast exit from there and go under the tail boom clueless of the tail rotor.

A little side note at Anacostia in the hanger and living spaces we were always monitoring the secret service radio 24/7. Could be a pain at times when President Ford was in office. His kids would be out all night in George town club hopping. All night long the radio would be broadcasting.

Hope I answered your questions. I tend to drag things out at times but would be happy to answer any questions that I can. I will try to find more of my pictures to post. I do have some of the inside of the VH-3D's before they were in service. They were cleared by the higher ups at the time having no sensitive items in frame. I also have pictures of NAS Anacostia flooded deeply. Pulled the helo's to high ground and the mission went on. We had a huge old tow tractor that use to move air force bombers. We used that to get around in the water. What I wish I had pictures of that modelers would love to reference was an atomic cannon that was along the Potomac river facing south. There were several abandoned Quonset huts there as well as several large nuclear containment vessels. They were across the street from our hanger. That stuff was moved out sometime in 1975 or 6. In the old days you needed to be very careful with pictures. Maybe one out of 4 times you were given the OK to take pictures.

[Loach Driver]

No need to worry about your answers dragging on. They simply don't! It is fascinating to read all these little bits of information on a helicopter operation that, although acknowledged and public, is still something of a mystery because so much of it is either classified or operates on a "need to know" basis, and in general, most of the public don't need to know! Thanks for replies and any photos will be welcome.

 

LD.

[andyf117]

I'm intrigued, Bill, by your reference to "a sliding door white top VH-3A" - every VH-3 'white top' photo which l have shows airstairs fitted...

....this one, however, is of particular note in that it has three 'standard' windows on the port side, rather than four with the 'picture' window...

....which leads me to wonder, is it "a sliding door white top VH-3A"? The photo is captioned 'Army One, Camp David, 1967'...

Edited August 23, 2023 by andyf117

[Bill K]

I can't tell by the picture if it is or not a sliding door. The sliding door would be on the aft right side where it is normally on a Navy SH-3. At some point I will pull out my flight log and could figure some of the numbers. At Anacostia I was the white and gold bird but never the red. I can't think of any lift where a high level VIP was flown in a sliding door however the #2 A/C was that a lot. I crewed the # 2 A/C when the German Chancellor Willie Brandt visited. When VIP's arrive they don't land at the White House. We would land at the reflecting pool. I think the WW2 monument is built where we would land. The Army would have a saluting battery by the Washington Monument. VIP were driven to the White House.

When the Army also had the mission, But never alert duty at Anacostia, the Marine Corps took every other lift. When Army one had a lift they would stage at Anacostia. They would get ice and related things for drinks etc from us. One of there last big lifts was when President Nixon resigned. That was an army lift.

On VIP trips when the Army was still in business we didn't wear USMC uniforms except on lifts. We wore what was called a Ralph Krandem suite. After the honeymooners TV show. It was a green Sears 1 piece overall with a yellow scarf and a blue baseball cap with the presidential seal sewn on the front. We wore our rank on the collars in polish brass. Buying that outfit was on us in those days. Lifts were done in the uniform of the day with our leather flight jacket in cool weather. That changed to dress blue pants and tropical shirt when the Army no longer had the mission. That with the flight jacket was a sharp uniform. The Marine Corps did buy the blue trousers and the white cover for the barracks cover.

The Army helo pictured has the older windows. Later A/C on the left side forward had a large window that was also a rescue window. The 1st lady chair was first facing aft with a space then the Presidents seat was next facing forward. His seat would revolve and was larger then hers. Across was a 3 person couch on the right side. Next to that going aft was a small fixed end table with a light on top. That held packs of cigarettes, chewing cum and life severs candy. After that on both sides were more couches. In that picture you can see the backs of the couch in the windows. The aft area was a small wet bar, head which in the A models was a toilet seat and plastic bag, couple of seats for the  aids and secret service. Seats were assigned with very nice seat cards. The crew chief received a manifest before flights with the cards and what seat they went on. Here is a picture of items I loaned to the Naval air museum  in Pensacola. You can see the seat cards at the bottom. All but the Flight jacket is mine. The lift is me for the French President when he came over on the Concord.

Hope I answered your questions. I will be away for a long weekend in Sarasota Florida so I may not be able to answer questions until next week.

[Bill K]

The A/C inventory for 147145 was a sliding door A model. We were the white bird at Anacostia. The picture with the head of state lift was later in a VH-3D. I don't remember if it was from Quantico or Anacostia. That packet is how we would get the manifest and seating cards. The torn paper is what the Welcome Aboard Marine One stair signs was wrapped in when it went out of service. 613 is now in the Naval Aviation Museum. It kinda looks like it was when it was Marine One. The inside not so much. I was never the crew chief on that A/C but was 1st rag for a while. It went out of service when the D models went in service. Top Hillard gave me the sign. Very unexpected. Ne was good that way. Always through of the men. The presidential seal was one of many we had. As they would get worn they were surveyed. I received 1 President and one vice president. These pictures are not in any order. I took them and sent to Pensacola when they were looking for items for the Marine One display. One thing I wanted but never got was a tail rotor blade. In the line shack we had one painted and marked Marine One. The last picture is how we would get our lift orders. Simple and to the point. We didn't stay at Camp David for this lift. Very boring place for enlisted aircrews. Think I only stayed there two or 3 times. Was there for President Fords first trip to Camp David. That is several stories in it self.

[Cubs2jets]

I've been following this thread with interest.  I don't claim to know anything about the Presidential aircraft (other than being able to know the difference between a VH-3 and a VH-60).  This popped up on eBay yesterday and I thought it might be relevant...

 

C2j

[andyf117]

3 hours ago, Cubs2jets said:

I've been following this thread with interest.  I don't claim to know anything about the Presidential aircraft (other than being able to know the difference between a VH-3 and a VH-60).  This popped up on eBay yesterday and I thought it might be relevant...

I saw that too, but some time ago downloaded a version found on Flickr that's posted on the preceding page!

[Cubs2jets]

7 hours ago, andyf117 said:

I saw that too, but some time ago downloaded a version found on Flickr that's posted on the preceding page!

OOoops!

[Bill K]

Any date, location or bureau number. Looking at the window at the sponson and it might have some sort of VIP kit. The sliding door window seem like it is blacked out. Might be a pre white top, white top.

[andyf117]

The BuNo appears to be in black, so no chance of reading it - as for location, the sign between the hangars appears to say 'Weapons System Test', if that's any clue...

[Bill K]

Here is a interior shot of the VH-3D before they were in service. All the flight crews needed to qualify on the D models. The crew chief folding seat was a new addition. The large seat on the left closest to the camera would be the President. Forward of that was the first ladies seat. This seat was smaller. The 3 black strips on the right bulkhead are the crew names. The empty left side bulkhead, when in service would have a presidential seal and Marine One had art work. To the left of the president seat would be a secure radio shaped like a telephone and a pull out table. This picture shows no restricted items. The overhead bulkhead is the first generation. This was changed above the forward door to a smaller molded piece. The interior is mostly all molded plastic. The A models were custom fitted fake leather on a wood frame.

I have some other pictures that I'm getting an error code of 200 when I try to attach. Hope I can figure it out.

[Bill K]

The interior seats on the above picture are bright blue. Not showing well on this picture.

[Loach Driver]

Great picture, Bill, and very interesting. 

 

As an aside, I just discovered today that the original issue of the Fujimi 1/72 SH-3 kit featured decals for the USMC's MX16. If only they had selected markings for MX15 instead! 😀 The same markings were included in the same kit when it was re-released in 2001 so that might be the version to seek out. Decals from 2001 might still be useable. The original decals from 1981 are probably past their sell-by date by now.

 

LD.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Loach Driver

[YF65_CH53E]

Andy, 

 

The picture above of MX-9 I am pretty sure thats NAS Patuxent River, MD. Although there are a few other places like Pt. Mugu that may have "Weapons Systems Test" on buildings, but I think these are the hangars down by HX-21 and VX-1 from the 1970's at PAX.  Those appear to me to be the Rotary Wing hangars down by TPS.

 

r/Gunny 

[Bill K]

Thanks for the info on the decals. I'm still trying to get a work around on posting more pictures. I have a nice shot of the fancy CH-53s in a row at Quantico.

[Loach Driver]

Hi Bill. I noted in the various photos of MX-15 that it had a placard holder under the left pilot's window. I presume it never carried the Presidential Seal but were many other seals carried on a placard by MX-15 during it's time on the "White Side"? Thanks.

 

LD.

 

 

[Loach Driver]

On 8/23/2023 at 11:01 PM, andyf117 said:

I'm intrigued, Bill, by your reference to "a sliding door white top VH-3A" - every VH-3 'white top' photo which l have shows airstairs fitted...

....this one, however, is of particular note in that it has three 'standard' windows on the port side, rather than four with the 'picture' window...

....which leads me to wonder, is it "a sliding door white top VH-3A"? The photo is captioned 'Army One, Camp David, 1967'...

 

I wonder is this the same H-3 in this photo? It appears to have the same forward airstairs door without the window. There doesn't appear to be another door along the left fuselage side. My guess is that there was a sliding door on the right fuselage side similar to the SH-3A. The spacing of the windows appears to be similar to the window spacing on the S-61A (for example, the Royal Danish Air Force S-61A - although this helicopter has three windows instead of four). I wonder is the window spacing similar on the opposite side, perhaps minus the final window to the rear of the sliding door. The antenna layout seems to be very similar too.

 

 

LD.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Loach Driver

[andyf117]

2 hours ago, Loach Driver said:

I wonder is this the same H-3 in this photo? It appears to have the same forward airstairs door without the window. There doesn't appear to be another door along the left fuselage side. My guess is that there was a sliding door on the right fuselage side similar to the SH-3A. The spacing of the windows appears to be similar to the window spacing on the S-61A (for example, the Royal Danish Air Force S-61A - although this helicopter has three windows instead of four). I wonder is the window spacing similar on the opposite side, perhaps minus the final window to the rear of the sliding door. The antenna layout seems to be very similar too.

That's a very good spot - and confirmed by the b&w ground shot on the preceding page that originally instigated this thread; examining it again - but looking at the VH-3 rather than the -53 - it's blindingly obvious that it does indeed also have three standard-sized and evenly-spaced windows. It may or may not be the same aircraft as the one above - whilst that apparently dates from 1967, the Sikorsky archive shot is known to be March 1972...

Edited October 6, 2023 by andyf117

[Loach Driver]

Just thinking about it, it's possible that the fourth window fitted to the rear, closest to the tailboom, is not fitted to this SH-3/VH-3 because the rear cabin bulkhead is immediately behind the opening for the rear door, as was common on the early Sikorsky SH-3s. I think the S-61A had that bulkhead moved further back to extend the interior capacity. I think Westland adopted this cabin layout as well right from the start.

 

LD. 

Edited October 7, 2023 by Loach Driver

[andyf117]

51 minutes ago, Loach Driver said:

Just thinking about it, it's possible that the fourth window fitted to the rear, closest to the tailboom, is not fitted to this SH-3/VH-3 because the rear cabin bulkhead is immediately behind the opening for the rear door, as was common on the early Sikorsky SH-3s. I think the S-61A had that bulkhead moved further back to extend the interior capacity. I think Westland adopted this cabin layout as well right from the start.

The rear cabin bulkhead was indeed located immediately aft of the main cabin door on the early versions of the SH-3, and not moved back until later models; Westland initially had it in the same location for the HAS.1 and 2, and, if memory serves, it was first moved back on the German Mk.41, and that then became its standard position for most, if not all, subsequent variants...

....the VH-3 fleet has never had the furthest aft windows fitted, however - I believe that the rear section of the cabin is/was used as a luggage/storage and/or galley area...

Edited October 7, 2023 by andyf117

[Dutch]

On 8/2/2023 at 7:48 PM, YF65_CH53E said:

Andy is correct here.  Those birds with the "MX" designator on the tail are "Green Side" support helicopters.  they do various support missions for HMX-1, which at the time of most of these photographs included OT&E work as HMX-1 was the designated testor for assualt support aviation then.  They also will do support missions out of MCAF Quantico to among other things support Officers Candidate School (OCS) and The Basic School (TBS) evolutions. Troop movements, night troop inserts and some time artillery lift as the picture above shows.

 

Green Side aircraft do not typically support presidential operations.  Not in the colors Andy showed above, the white "MX" on the tails or fuselage.  The CH-53D with drop tanks is definetly a presidential support airplane.  It will haul the press corps and other digniataries, as well as logistic support for the Marine-1 VH-3's.  CH-53D, CH-46D/E, CH-53E and now MV-22B's are all Green Side support.  Today HMX-1 is out of the DT&E, OT&E role as it is now all done down at PAX River and MCAS New River with VMX-1.

 

The 1/144th CH-53A would be a great model to depict MX-30 an early HMX-1 Green Side support helicopter!

 

r/Gunny Dan

Gunny,

I like all of your commnets, but your last comment casued a spark in the old synapses just now.  I have one of those Revell CH-53G kits sans bat wings, tanks and probe, and was pondering what shceme to put on her.  I already have one designated as an Op Frequent Wind machine, but was having trouble with the second kit.  So, thanks to you, I now have the perfect subject for that kit.  Thanks! 

S/F,

Dutch  

Edited October 7, 2023 by Dutch

[Bill K]

The placard holder under the copilot and pilots window was on most of our A/C in those days. MX-15 while assigned on the white side never flew a VIP. There were always other VH-3s for that mission. On the white side at Anacostia we were the third alert bird. If things got hot side placards would not matter. To the upper aft side of the crew door there was a smaller holder for numbers. At Annie we wore a 5 as we were the white bird. The other 2 wore a 3 and 4 as the Gold and Red bird. There was an assigned Marine 1 at Quantico which took a large amount of lifts that were assigned to the Marine Corps. The VH-1Ns took others and the Army still flew missions until the VH-3Ds went into service. At any given time the green side A/C, SH-3Gs, CH-46s and UH-1Ns,not so much for the CH-53s, could be flying any number of VIPs and Marine Corps officers. When that was done the rank placard was placed into the holders. There was a large bin with dividers that held placards for every VIP or rank you could think of. Some of the most common lifts were at the pentagon, Pax river, Indian Head, Mount Weather and Camp David.

HMX also during my time there also did bury at sea lifts. Some of them are a story in its self.

 

The windows changed several times. The attached picture shows a VH-3 before my time with a small window aft port side. I understand that the window was in the toilet area. Notice that the fuel tank fillers are not covered yet. That is the same the photo above with the CH-53. Late 60s. It also now has the picture window which is where President sat. The attached image is the layout of the VH-3A both models. The VH-3D was very similar. Luggage was usually carried on the #2 A/C with the aids, secret service, etc.

The 3 SH-3Gs only had a vapor barrier  far aft of the cabin past the sliding door. 15 and 16 had troop seats, 14 had older VIP seating. All VH-3 A/C had the bulkhead with door forward and aft in the same location.

The drawings came from the inventory binder that all A/C carried. 147145 was a sliding door VH-3A. Another bird that I was the crew chief.  A picture of the binder is above in some of my group photos of various items.

After this posts I will try to load the pictures that I was getting error codes for. Hope I answered all the posts.

[Bill K]

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