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2018 Marine Midair Collision


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Stumbled upon a very interesting (and disturbing) article about the December 2018 mid-air between a Marine F/A-18D and a KC-130.    Heartbreaking and quite honestly disgusting that this was allowed to happen.   If it wasn't so tragic, it would almost comical how bad thing were with regard to poor leadership, morale, staffing, equipment, training, etc. 

 

https://www.propublica.org/article/marines-hornet-squadron-242-crash-pacific-resilard

 

 

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On 1/28/2020 at 10:45 AM, Spook498 said:

Sad indeed, but I dont see things improving with ongoing operational tempo, the lack of men and material.

Given how much we are spending on defense, it's crazy that we still have these issues.  I thought our military was supposed to be great again?

 

 

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41 minutes ago, 11bee said:

Given how much we are spending on defense, it's crazy that we still have these issues.  I thought our military was supposed to be great again?

 

 

Right after the X amount of dollars is used on the border fence. 

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And to think, that after 8 years of decreasing budgets and neglect everything can be solved in less than 2 years.

 

Funny, I don't recall any one having any issues when money was being taken from the military and being used for social programs.

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16 hours ago, GW8345 said:

And to think, that after 8 years of decreasing budgets and neglect everything can be solved in less than 2 years.

 

Funny, I don't recall any one having any issues when money was being taken from the military and being used for social programs.

 

 

Probably because that never actually happened. 

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16 hours ago, GW8345 said:

Funny, I don't recall any one having any issues when money was being taken from the military and being used for social programs.

 

13 minutes ago, BaconRaygun said:

Probably because that never actually happened. 

 

 

Sure it did. Its called "Defense Budget Cuts" for FY 11, 12, 13, a total of 11.1%, with an increase of .6% in 14.

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Even after the marginal cuts, our defense budget is still higher than the next 6 highest defense budgets combined.  Sorry, but you cant blame this on the budget.  

 

 

...and I was not questioning whether there was a cut (a relatively small one, at that). I questioned that these alleged cuts were done specifically with the intent of applying those funds to social programs.  

 

How about when they took money from social security to fund corporate bailouts?  Surely, this should be an outrage, no? 

Edited by BaconRaygun
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11 minutes ago, Spook498 said:

 

 

 

Sure it did. Its called "Defense Budget Cuts" for FY 11, 12, 13, a total of 11.1%, with an increase of .6% in 14.

The budget cuts were more than just FY11, 12 and 13. In 2009 $300 Billion was cut from the defense budget, effectively cutting F-22 production to 187 from the planned 750. In 2010 another $80 Billion was cut, in 2011 another $400 billion was cut.

 

The foundation for the C-130/F-18 accident were laid many years before it actually happened. You can't cut funding for training and equipment while keeping (or even ramping up) the tempo of operations without it directly affecting those one the pointy end of the spear.

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2 minutes ago, BaconRaygun said:

Even after the marginal cuts, our defense budget is still higher than the next 6 highest defense budgets combined.  Sorry, but you cant blame this on the budget.  

I disagree.

 

And what "6 highest defense budgets" are you referring to?

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...China and inda account for MORE THAN HALF OF THE POPULATION OF THE WORLD.  

 

There are 330 million Americans in the world. There are 7.4 billion people in the world.  

 

If we cant figure it out with our extremely generous military budget, then we are doomed.  I mean, come on, they cant do it with what $600 billion a year?  Really?  

Edited by BaconRaygun
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9 minutes ago, BaconRaygun said:

...China and inda account for MORE THAN HALF OF THE POPULATION OF THE WORLD.  

 

There are 330 million Americans in the world. There are 7.4 billion people in the world.  

 

If we cant figure it out with our extremely generous military budget, then we are doomed.  I mean, come on, they cant do it with what $600 billion a year?  Really?  

We'll just have to agree to disagree, any further discussion on this topic would cross the line into the realm of politics.

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2 minutes ago, GW8345 said:

 

And what "6 highest defense budgets" are you referring to?

Google it.

 

The amount of money the US spends on defense is obscene (sorry, I know that opinion won't go over well with the majority of the ARC fan boy crowd).   And with all that money being spent, we still can't address critical readiness issues, like record low numbers for aircraft availability, ships that can't leave port, no money for training / flight hours, no money for required personnel, etc.  Despite all the spending, ships keep colliding, aircraft keep crashing due to shortfalls in training, not enough personnel and failures in leadership at the top.   The crash in that report is anything but an isolated example of how the military is broken.  If the US military was a corporation, the top managers would have been fired (or it simply would have gone out of business).  

 

It's a good thing that we live in a country where the military can just keep spending like a drunken sailor (sorry to all the squids on this page) and the taxpayers just keep throwing more billions out to them in hopes that they'll finally fix things.   I'd argue that the military is the nation's biggest social welfare program.

 

I'm old enough to remember how the Soviet Union went broke try to outspend us.  At the end, they had a massive military machine and very little else.   I heard the USSR referred to derogatorily as "Zambia with nukes and a space program".   That title seems to be pretty fitting over here these days (except that we can't afford much of a space program either).  

 

Maybe we just downsize the entire DOD and see how things work out?   Cut the budget by 50%.  We'll still be the worlds largest military and I'm willing to bet we won't see red hordes marching down Main Street, USA anytime soon. 

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1 hour ago, 11bee said:

Google it.

 

The amount of money the US spends on defense is obscene (sorry, I know that opinion won't go over well with the majority of the ARC fan boy crowd).   And with all that money being spent, we still can't address critical readiness issues, like record low numbers for aircraft availability, ships that can't leave port, no money for training / flight hours, no money for required personnel, etc.  Despite all the spending, ships keep colliding, aircraft keep crashing due to shortfalls in training, not enough personnel and failures in leadership at the top.   The crash in that report is anything but an isolated example of how the military is broken.  If the US military was a corporation, the top managers would have been fired (or it simply would have gone out of business).  

 

It's a good thing that we live in a country where the military can just keep spending like a drunken sailor (sorry to all the squids on this page) and the taxpayers just keep throwing more billions out to them in hopes that they'll finally fix things.   I'd argue that the military is the nation's biggest social welfare program.

 

I'm old enough to remember how the Soviet Union went broke try to outspend us.  At the end, they had a massive military machine and very little else.   I heard the USSR referred to derogatorily as "Zambia with nukes and a space program".   That title seems to be pretty fitting over here these days (except that we can't afford much of a space program either).  

 

 

 

 

Bored, John?

 

 

You're seeing the bias of information saturation. we've had accidents and failures before. worse than this in fact. during times when the military was "fixed" and "broken" the difference is you didn't hear about all of them. or didn't get the play by play you do now. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Ramp_disaster

 

Quote

Maybe we just downsize the entire DOD and see how things work out?   Cut the budget by 50%.  We'll still be the worlds largest military and I'm willing to bet we won't see red hordes marching down Main Street, USA anytime soon. 

 

 

go cut the budget by 50 percent, and dump into other "social welfare" that's also criminally mismanaged. There's nothing you've said above that doesn't also apply to nearly every other sector of government. in fact one could argue the US military is one of the few institutions that actually "work" as low as the bar for "work" can be set. 

 

The other way this doesn't work is cutting the military 50 percent but maintaining the same alliances and commitments means you'll see more issue because the work hasn't reduced but you're now trying to do the same things with half as much." need to re-cajigger the alliances and military commitments first, and then from there reflect military size and force structure to suit it. 

 

the last part of that is, the notion of any outcome short of red hoardes marching through main street is acceptable. I mean Red Japan, a united best korea, and communist Australia do sound pretty awesome. As long as its not my main street I guess. 

 

5937f2500cf6f.image.jpg?resize=1200,857

 

 

But don't worry. we are de- prioritizing the whole "war thing" as fast as possible. 

 

All the old crumedgeons and dinosaurs who warned about anything other than the task at hand creeping in are being proven right. 

 

its all coming back to roost. The only way this works is get the cigar chompers to come in and start bashing heads around. and throwing out all the dead weight and doing all the non PC stuff the military has been doing post tail hook back into the bottle. 

 

The only solace I can take was that all the Marines that died that night were up to date on all their immunizations, dental, suicide prevention, sexual assault training, LGBTQ awareness, safety briefings, the dangers of drinking underage, and that all their paperwork and haircuts were in perfect order and social media protocols. little things like radios and rescue plans, well I simply can't be bothered.

 

little things like making sure everyone was rated, ready, awake, and gear functioning, or even up to date, is just too much hassle bro. 

 

even the silliness of the whole "there was adultery!" and they "used sexual call signs!" (a callsign having to do with sex? why I never...) Once upon a time that stuff was the nothing burger it was. Work hard, play hard. I don't care as long as you SOBs are ready to kill people when I pick up the phone, has now shifted to this. I'm fine with dirty mouths and clean jets. hung over bodies, but working gear. For some reason we are supposed to be mad about this? Now everyone is sober as a judge, but the gears busted. 

 

There was definitely failures there, but even the stuff they uncovered that are being used here are subterfuge. The issue was gear failures and keeping current. These are hardware issues. and preparedness/ Management issues. lack of communication throughout.  They're already laying the ground work for why this won't be fixed next time however and you can already see it. it sounds like the CO was hoisting red flags constantly. why was it ignored (Psssst because this is the new normal) 

 

"well our gear sucked, and we were using stuff that was outdated/bad rated"

 

Is that it? or was it your squadron adultery and sexually explicit call signs? 

 

uhhhhh. 

 

This would seemingly be the case as with happens with so many things, one or two differences could have broken the whole chain that lead to disaster. if they adhere to the sleep schedule, if the NVGs were better, if the pilot rating was kept better track of. 

 

Leadership is overloaded. They deal with far far more BS than they did even 10 years ago. What happens is basically you give them impossible tasks and they just try to survive until they can move on or move up. The solution for not being able to get the square peg to fit into the round hole is to sacrifice otherwise good leaders for not accomplishing the impossible. Someone in your squadron was in an inappropriate relationship? what do you mean you can't manage a Marine All Weather Fighter Squadron with ancient equipment and the personal lives of every Marine in your command while simultaneously adhering to every policy from gay pride to sexual assault to suicide prevention to family counseling? You can have a managed Mil base 90210, or a top of the line fighter squadron, rarely both. 

 

You just impale leaders. Thats the conclusion everyone I've talked to has come to. We will just keep firing people until we find the unicorn that can manage all this. oh and then we just need every unit leader to be a unicorn. It can't be managed. You would have heard about none of this if not for this tragedy. But when it happens, suddenly the microscope comes out and low and behold theyre having the same issues nearly everyone does now. None of the legendary Marine leaders would suffer this. Luckily they didn't have to. Theres no one out there who just gets to lead or manage a bunch of disgruntled young men anymore.

 

Leadership wouldn't know what to do with the "your unit is composed of ill tempered, though generally obedient 19 year old males only who are unmarried and don't have financial issues, no children or divorces. I mean they drink too much, but they don't usually drive" probably die of euphoria I'm betting. They literally wouldn't know what to do. theyve never been in that environment. only the "new normal" Theres almost no one who predates the tailhook scandal.

 

The good are getting out, they take their experience and knowledge with them. I tell people not to join. I had an A-1 candidate, absolute hard charger who was told (before I could even talk to him) not to bother with the military. people are avoiding joining. Nothing to do with the administration or Border walls this is all the "someday thats gonna bite us" coming to bite us. word is out. My kids won't be joining. 

 

You're seeing "institutional failures that can no longer be covered up by money. " There no amount of fuel you can pump into a punctured tank than can fix the leak. Schools have abandoned that boring old education stuff so their kids can play protestor. Environmentalism is replaced with celebrity teenagers. The FBI is inventing evidence to get spy warrants in secret courts against politicians they don't like. the constitution has become a suggestion, faith in institutions is (with good reason) stunningly low. cities openly define federal law, counties openly defy state law. there is no amount of money that can fix this

 

All policy is a gamble. You change it with the idea that it works out. What happens when it doesn't??  And What happens when you've conflated policy with the very concept of human progress and it doesn't work? Keep jamming the square peg? reverse the very notion of "progress"?? when I was growing up the idea that was taught to me, was that he had this baby in the bag, we just had to fix some of the trouble spots and teething issues. for example. Once we get all this racism taken care of with the police everything is all set. But decades later we still have racist police. what then? what happens when these aren't "teething issues" but fundamental policy incompatibilities? We just need to give the schools more money, so you do but the product gets worse. What happens when your welfare program isn't helping? but you've set it up so any kind of policy change is seen as the death of progress? 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by TaiidanTomcat
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I think what he is trying to say is, it's not just the Military that's broken... its America's entire government.   I agree, its all broken... all of it.... from the public school boards all the way up to the tippy top.   Not even just the government.  Culturally, we are broken too.  Just look at how anti-intellectualism is championed. Don't believe me?  Well, take a look at the anti-vaxx and anti-GMO movement, see how large they are?  There's your anti-intellectualism at work. 

 

It's scary how accurate the movie Idiocracy really was.  

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52 minutes ago, BaconRaygun said:

I think what he is trying to say is, it's not just the Military that's broken... its America's entire government.   I agree, its all broken... all of it.... from the public school boards all the way up to the tippy top.   Not even just the government.  Culturally, we are broken too.  Just look at how anti-intellectualism is championed. Don't believe me?  Well, take a look at the anti-vaxx and anti-GMO movement, see how large they are?  There's your anti-intellectualism at work. 

 

It's scary how accurate the movie Idiocracy really was.  

 

 

All those intellectuals haven't been able to solve even basic problems. Ronald Reagan was famously a dumb dumb, yet he knew after the 1983 Beirut bombing to leave. "Smart power" decided to take iraq and afghanistan and expand it into even more wars, drone strikes,  regime changes, while also surging in afghanistan and then "returning" to iraq oh and just for good measure lets just launch a thumb into the Russian eye with the eastern european games we have been playing (and playing very poorly) did I mention Gitmo is still open? 

 

this has been absolutely disastrous. its not "anti intellectualism" per se. Its the rejection of everyonein charge going "gimme the keys, I'm a smart guy and I know how to drive, you just rest your sleepy head in the back, I'm waaay smarter than the last guy" and he proceeds to drive the car off the cliff. That doesn't look likely to get any better anytime soon.  at one point you just say "why not that orange dude from reality TV?"

 

the one nice thing I can say is the Chinese are absolutely confused by what we are we doing. They can't make any sense of it. So its foreign policy so bad our next closest power rival is utterly dumbfounded. I don't know if theyll ever figure it out. Russia isn't worried about figuring it out, I know that. 

 

 

I turn 37 next month. When I was young I encountered these problems. again, we are on the upswing, we can solve this! Most things are getting worse. These problems aren't being overcome. California is collapsing. My neighborhood is now packed with California "refugees" who can't wait to tell me how much better and smarter they are than all us country bumpkins. while also voting for the same stuff they just ejected from. isn't that odd? why is the migration so one sided? probably nothing to do with anything. We re clearly doing something right. They were doing something wrong. Solution? move and make it wrong here too. fantastic.

 

I doubt this thread will have much of a lifespan. its just the simple fact that all these things, all these institutions all these rules and laws that were supposed to make things better have basically failed. 

 

Are we a democracy or a constitutional republic? there seems to be an awful lot of confusion on this. 

 

What if the "information super highway" we were promised actually makes people more gullible, more prone to misinformation?

 

What if "diversity" actually makes people more divided and exacerbates tensions instead of relieving them?

 

What if the "party of science" decides men can decide to become women, but then laments anyone who question global warming after such fickle declarations?

 

What if your government spent millions in taxpayer dollars to facilitate the acceptance of this. what if they enacted laws about proper pronouns? 

 

What happens when science become politicized? can people be faulted for not trusting "science" in that case?

 

What if the smartest guys in the room, aren't as bright as they thought? we watched the "whiz kids" get over 50,000 Americans killed. are we stuck on repeat?

 

What if you dumped heaps of cash into a welfare system that even decades later didn't make a dent?

 

1980 "we just gotta get the schools fixed". 2020: "we just gotta get the schools fixed"

 

What if after decades of voting for the same people to fix things, they remained unfixed? what if they actually got worse? "well I'll move!" good luck dude its going national. The policies that havn't worked in small test cases are about to be super sized. soon you'll have no where to run. 

 

What happens when the people who think coal is killing the planet share the same group of politicos that are supposed to represent blue collar coal miners? who wins?

 

where do the jobs that replace them come from? who wants to set up shop in West Virginia anyway? Thats not California or New York or India. 

 

What if the people who continually failed to make this work rather than being purged were instead recycled endlessly with no accountability for decades?

 

what if the people who are supposed to conserve, don't really conserve anything? (in case anyone thought I was being unfair)

 

What happens when the media can't be trusted to get the story right? and I don't just mean not get it right, but cover it at all. What do you know about Syria? it seems complex is there anyone out there who could maybe shed light on that or is there something going on with a celebrity tweet? Medias biggest power is what it DOESN'T cover. 

 

Theres a simple solution to all this. Demonstrate competency. Show you can win some wars and maybe you get more new fun wars to play with. Fix the VA and maybe more people will trust you with healthcare. Run the military efficiently and maybe get a return of people who want to be civil servants. This stuff is decades in the making. Its not even the current admin. The Current admin. is the result of this stuff failing. they need to take things they have control of and show they can do the job, then ask for more stuff when people saw they did well with what they had. 

 

we won't do that, but a man can dream. 

 

it-is-no-measure-of-health-to-be-well-ad

 

I don't mind anyone who is not impressed with the intellectuals. They aren't doing anything impressive. Theyre running some of the greatest cities and states into the ground and insolvency so thats nice. as I said its a gambit. its an attempt. the US is rife with "great ideas" that turn out to be not so great. from prohibition to the war on drugs. the trick is realizing its not working and trying something else. instead its "Well this prohibition stuff really works, we just need to do it harder" look at all the big ideas being championed the last 25 or 30 years. how is that working out?

 

 

 

 

Edited by TaiidanTomcat
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Yes, exactly what I was saying... it's all broken.  

 

 

I think you misunderstood my point about anti-intellectualism.   I'm not suggesting that some "intellectual" has all the answers.  I'm suggesting that the fashion of knowing nothing about nothing is more in stile now than it ever was.  The majority of people seem to believe that everybody's opinion matters... and what we get is people who don't know jack shoot about a subject getting the same amount of exposure about that subject as somebody who holds a PhD in that subject.  That's a MASSIVE problem!  And it's a non-partisan problem.  I don't care if you're republican, democrat, communist, socialist, whatever... guilty parties exist in every corner of the political spectrum. 

 

You wouldn't go to your automotive mechanic to diagnose a problem with your knees, right?  Why do we go to a poorly educated billionaire for public school advice?  Why are people taking healthcare advice from Hollywood celebrities?  Why are we letting oil executives run the EPA? Why are we letting corporations like WellsFargo defraud their customers six times over and still allow them to do business?  It's all so damn stupid.  What the hell is happening?  

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9 minutes ago, BaconRaygun said:

Yes, exactly what I was saying... it's all broken.  

 

 

I think you misunderstood my point about anti-intellectualism.   I'm not suggesting that some "intellectual" has all the answers.  I'm suggesting that the fashion of knowing nothing about nothing is more in stile now than it ever was.  The majority of people seem to believe that everybody's opinion matters... and what we get is people who don't know jack shoot about a subject getting the same amount of exposure about that subject as somebody who holds a PhD in that subject.  That's a MASSIVE problem!  And it's a non-partisan problem.  I don't care if you're republican, democrat, communist, socialist, whatever... guilty parties exist in every corner of the political spectrum. 

 

You wouldn't go to your automotive mechanic to diagnose a problem with your knees, right?  Why do we go to a poorly educated billionaire for public school advice?  Why are people taking healthcare advice from Hollywood celebrities?  Why are we letting oil executives run the EPA? Why are we letting corporations like WellsFargo defraud their customers six times over and still allow them to do business?  It's all so damn stupid.  What the hell is happening?  

 

 

why do you hate diversity, comrade? we are all equal, since we are all equal we are all interchangeable.

 

Dunning+Kruger.png

 

Dunning Krueger effect --the country!! 

 

 

but yes you are right. to bring it full circle:

 

are we really trying to say selfies and naughty call signs got those men killed? if not, why was it brought up? 

 

If only you guys didn't have naughty names and adulterers in your ranks...

 

yeah it wouldn't be functioning gear and time to get proficient with it that would help-- just gotta clean up the lingo and take more cold showers. 

 

Edited by TaiidanTomcat
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Yes, right on, the whole country is Dunning-Krugering real hard! 

 

I don't hate diversity!  But I'm assuming you were just joking and know exactly what I mean.  

 

 

 

I'm with you, I dont think adultery and sexualized call signs had anything to do with this tragedy.  I'll go so far as to say that I think the idea that adultery and sexualized call signs is the problem is actually more of the problem than the adultery and call signs.  If they spent less time worrying about what people do on their spare time, and how they "sexualize" their callsigns, then they would be able to use their time and brainpower in a more constructive fashion to solve the actual problems... which, to me, seem to have more to do with logistics and outdated hierarchy than names and what one chooses to do in the bedroom. 

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1 minute ago, BaconRaygun said:

Yes, right on, the whole country is Dunning-Krugering real hard! 

 

I don't hate diversity!  But I'm assuming you were just joking and know exactly what I mean.  

 

 

yep. but I don't see that getting any better. If we are going to say a man can decide (self diagnose?) hes a woman one day,  its really hard to tell him to be quiet, and that hes wrong, and that the doctor says thats not what he is.

 

We then furthermore can't tell the doctor he is wrong, and this "woman" is stunning and brave. But then be mad when people say they don't trust doctors and those vaccines. 

 

the older I get, the more i understand that emperor has no clothes story. made no sense when I was younger. 

 

 

 

1 minute ago, BaconRaygun said:

 

I'm with you, I dont think adultery and sexualized call signs had anything to do with this tragedy.  I'll go so far as to say that I think the idea that adultery and sexualized call signs is the problem is actually more of the problem than the adultery and call signs.  If they spent less time worrying about what people do on their spare time, and how they "sexualize" their callsigns, then they would be able to use their time and brainpower in a more constructive fashion to solve the actual problems... which, to me, seem to have more to do with logistics and outdated hierarchy than names and what one chooses to do in the bedroom. 

 

yep. But for some reason that came up. I shouldn't say for some reason. its so they can say the CO ran an undisciplined cowboy camp and drop him (drop him easier-- heads were gong o roll, but it looks like they couldn't find more to be mad about). while kind of not working to fix the myriad of failures elsewhere. why on earth was that bad gear still in rotation? it was in rotation because that's all there was. Why was that all there was? well thats a bigger question. 

 

Marines make do. always have, always will. thats one of the reasons why this happened at all. "you mean we aren't using primo air force approved gear? why I never!!" there was no red flag because all of this was distressingly normal. Youre tired? we're all tired, sir etc. it becomes very hard to tell the difference between old crappy gear that is just usual dangerous, and old crappy gear that is SERIOUSLY dangerous. 

 

Ive seen "worse" squadrons and units than that, and no one died. I don't know if it got fixed but for YEARS there was a very famous squadron at Yuma that was notoriously bad and permanently miserable. no crashes. that I can recall?

 

Their gear worked. by hook or by crook. They got to work a lot of weekends as the constant punishment maybe that was it.  They didn't lose aircraft though. 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, BaconRaygun said:

...China and inda account for MORE THAN HALF OF THE POPULATION OF THE WORLD.  

 

There are 330 million Americans in the world. There are 7.4 billion people in the world.  

 

If we cant figure it out with our extremely generous military budget, then we are doomed.  I mean, come on, they cant do it with what $600 billion a year?  Really?  

 india and china are more than 3.7 billion combined? 

 

see my sig line. its "generous" just not the way you think 

 

9ca66f12d18c5673f07a74edb8a5acc4.jpg

 

people who think we can raid the defense budget for money are in some very rude awakenings. Its not that I don't understand its a lot-- because it is--, its that its not enough to make up for whats being proposed by a lot of people running for office. Cutting even 200 billion isn't going to be some windfall in a budget thats 4.7 trillion. and proposals what would bring it up to double digit trillions per year. 

 

 

 

 

800px-Defense_spending.png

 

 

 

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