B-17 Hybrid in the shop

[100th BG]

Here ia a little information to assist you with the tail wheel. I can come up with the bulkheads back there as well in a while. The door you speak of forward of the tail gunners section was supposed to have been deleted in the G's, but that does not preclude the possibility that some tail gunner freezing his behind off might have requested one to keep all the air blowing up around the tail gear off his back. I can tell you there is a flat floor on either side of the tail wheel, then aft there is floor that is curved following the curvature of the fuselage. I will see what I can come up with photo wise plus I'll send you a part of the stations diagram to help locate stuff.

[Army_Air_Force]

I'm sure I've seen a B-17 with a large canvas boot around the tailwheel structure to keep the wind out. Not sure if that was wartime or post war.

[Army_Air_Force]

Here we go. A metal fairing around the wheel and canvas around the leg structure.

[100th BG]

Absolutely right, but of course that canvas didn't keep ALL the air out! ; ) I rode back there one year from Wichita Falls to Midland for the Airshow and it is quite drafty! This equipment diagram kind of shows the floor structure around the tail wheel and aft.

EDIT: Here is a little better photo of the tail wheel area. You can see the canvas, the metal structure where the wheel assy retracts and the floor aound it. Courtesy of Aero Detail 19.

Edited September 7, 2010 by 100th BG

[aircommando130]

This is very cool. I remember years ago (in a light year far away) when Shoo Shoo Baby was at Dover AFB being put together a guy built a diorama of the hangar and Shoo Soo all apart in sections and sitting in cradles and the wings in sections in wood frames and parts all over. He did a very nice job on that diorama. Are you going to show it being rebuilt in a hangar as well or outside in the cold?

[Army_Air_Force]

I would have thought all major rebuilds like this would have been in a hangar, not for ground crew comfort, but you couldn't take the risk of the aircraft sections blowing off jacks/stands in strong winds.

[Kostucha]

Thanks for all the great information, that's great stuff I'll be using for sure!

As for the diorama, oh no, she'll be inside a hangar, much like in the first couple pictures on the first page show. What I'm not sure is to what extent I'll be building up the sides of the hangar. I'd love to build them up high, but I don't want to reduce the viewers ability to see the details within the fuselage sections. Then again, I don't want it so low that it ends up looking like an apron outside a hangar. I'm thinking about 3-4 inch tall frame sections of the wall, with 1-2 inches of wall panels mounted on the fame to give the impression of this taking place inside a hangar.

Thoughts?

Mark.

[Army_Air_Force]

I've got some T2 hangar structure pictures I'll have to dig out for you.

[Kostucha]

That would be just great Stephen!

Cheers,

Mark.

[Army_Air_Force]

Here we go. Didn't take long to find them. It's a new build T2 using the original structure and design, with modern cladding. In wartime, the cladding was corrugated iron, usually painted black bitumen except on a few airfields earlier in the war which received a camo scheme.

[Army_Air_Force]

[Army_Air_Force]

That's the lot.

Basic dimensions were 240ft long, 120 feet wide, 39ft high. I think the frame spacings inside were 10 feet apart. I have some plans somewhere, but can't recall where. Doors clearance on a B-24 was only 1.5 inches each side which would make the max door opening 110 feet 3 inches.

Edited September 6, 2010 by Army_Air_Force

[100th BG]

Hate to mention this but in the interests of accuracy there were no T2 hangars at Bassingbourne. They had four Type C hanagars of brick and steel construction. Bassingbourne was a prewar base with many buildings of permanent construction. It was quite comfortable compared to the bases hastily constructed during the war. This is part of the reason (the proximity to London was another) there was so much coverage of the 91st during the war as the correspondents were able to live in relative luxury.

More info than you will ever need on Type C Hangars: http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/B8173EE7-AF...D61/0/dmg24.pdf

There are some excellent drawings starting at page 84.

Edited September 6, 2010 by 100th BG

[100th BG]

Bassingbourne Hangars via flashearth:

http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=52.095328&a...r=0&src=msl

Note that one is gone.

Edited September 6, 2010 by 100th BG

[Kostucha]

Stephen, thanks for the info, and though I wont be using it in this build, down the road with another diorama (if this one is successful) I could be using it there.

Karl, thank you for that info, that'll definitely help with this build.

Curious if you were with the Sentimental Journey when she flew into Lethbridge, Alberta about 15 years or so ago. (She flew in with the He-111 with the RR engines where one of them had a bit of maintenance that needed to be done).

Given that those hangars were permanent structures, what types of things would then be in there during WWII? We've mentioned here the air compressor for the rivet gun, but what else would we find in there?

Cheers,

Mark.

[100th BG]

Hi Mark: The only trip I made to Canada was to Ottawa, from which we went to Albany and then flew down the Hudson and through NYC when I took the following photos. I was engineering on the Heinkel that day. As for the hangar stuff, excellent question. Can't give a definite answer, but one would expect to find workbenches, assorted jacks, probably some locally made steps for accessing the the forward entrance, engine stands, tool boxes, perhaps some racks for parts storage (although the main parts area would be in another building), probably a mobile hoist, oil drums, ladders, I guess you are only limited by your imagination!

It was hard to get good pictures as we were bouncing around pretty good on a warm September afternoon! I was able to open the top hatch in order to take these.

[Kostucha]

Great pictures!

The first one there, in black and white, could honestly pass for being taken in 1945. Awesome!

You're absolutely right about limited by only imagination for the hangar floor, and what it would have in it. I'm thinking I'll definitely have a great, great, fun time building this one for sure.

Cheers!

Mark.

[aircommando130]

The diorama that guy did at Dover had the high walls and door tracks with the doors open and the side walls had all the structure and electrical box's on the wall. He used what looked like brown shopping bag paper that had been aged and used it for the wall insulation. The top was completely open to not block the view. As for stuff in the hangar I would think tool box's, lights to see (hand held drop lights or on a light all cart) maintenance hoists to lift heavy parts, work tables, ladders of different lengths and maybe a tow tug bringing something to the fella's. This whole project sounds very interesting...can't wait to see it get underway... :)

[Kostucha]

Thats awesome! Wish I could have seen that diorama. I'm thinking that doing the hangar complete with the top (roof) open would be a bit big for this one, as it's almost 2 meters wide in 1/48. So, this again brings to mind another challenge, how to show half a hangar? Gah... If this was 1/72 it'd be a different story. Oh well though, it isn't, it's 1/48, so, planning it out...

What I'm thinking is that if I can build it so that the front of the hangar doors are open, roof off, and rather than building the whole hangar, cut the hangar in half flush with the edge of the diorama, that should provide enough viewing space to see LMM. Or, like I mentioned before, having the structure frame 'bout 4 inches high, and the walls about 1-2 inches.

I'm starting to make a list of what I'll have in there... and running through some pictures trying to reference these ideas with what they would have looked like in that era.

I'm going to have some fun with this one. The worst part, is waiting until Jan 1, for the group build to start this one...

Cheers.

[Lock n' Load]

EDIT: Here is a little better phot of the tail wheel area. You can see the canvas, the metal structure where the wheel assy retracts and the floor aound it. Courtesy of Aero Detail 19.

Wow.. to be honest, i would feel alot worse in the tail gunner position than in the ball turret....

[Steve N]

..and you'd be smart! Tail gunners had a much higher casualty rate than ball turret gunners.

Interestingly, I was touring the USAF Museum restoration shop a couple years ago, and our tour guide was showing us the Memphis Belle's turrets. She said that despite oft-repeated stories, a thorough search of AAF records could find no incident in which a ball turret gunner was killed due to being trapped in the turret and crushed during a belly landing..and in fact, so many different systems would have to be knocked out simultaneously to create those conditions, it would make such an incident highly unlikely. Even in the event of complete electrical or hydraulic failure (I'm not sure which the ball turret was) the turret could still be manually rotated, and a hit from flak or fighters bad enough to jam it and prevent the gunner's escape would likely kill the gunner.

SN

[Steve N]

HUMONGOUS PIC ALERT!

I happened to find this lurking on the hard drive. This is the waist area of "Nine-Oh-Nine." Obviously lots of non-period equipment in the photo, and much of the original bits are missing, but hopefully it'll prove useful in showing the control cable runs and such. It appears she has a canvas curtain completely closing off the area leading back to the tail gun. I don't know if that's original, or something Collings added for passenger comfort (or to keep curious visitors out of the tail.) Of course, once again the color is completely bogus..originally the waist sections were almost totally unpainted.

SN

Edited September 7, 2010 by Steve N

[Army_Air_Force]

.......a thorough search of AAF records could find no incident in which a ball turret gunner was killed due to being trapped in the turret and crushed during a belly landing.........SN

It happened in the 100th Bomb Group. A very famous incident when two of the 100th's B-17's collided and locked together, the ball turret gunners turret was damaged and locked into the roof of the radio room of the lower aircraft. Unable to more the turret or open the door, he was trapped and was unable to escape. Most of the crews escaped I believe, but the pilots of the top aircraft flew the pair to the ground. Upon striking the ground, the top B-17 broke clear landing/crashing ahead of the first. The pilot and co-pilot survived the crash landing, but the ball turret gunner didn't escape.

[Kostucha]

IIRC, The Memphis Belle documentary narrated by the Belles Pilot shows this scene happening, doesn't it? I vividly remember watching a documentary dealing with the Memphis Belle on her 25th, and one of the shots - in colour - shows a bomber coming in on her belly on the runway and again, IIRC not only did the narration talk about this very thing, but also showed it too. Maybe I'm loosing my marbles... that aside...

STEVE! Thanks!!! That's EXACTLY what I was looking for!

Were these control cables run as one entire length from front to back, or were there connect/disconnect points along their length?

Mark.

[Lock n' Load]

I got that movie.. hm I'll have to watch it know, gotta clean my VHS player.