egt95 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 Hi Manfred. It has taken me some time to read and catch up on this project of yours. And that all because of my absence. Now that I'm done with the things that has been keeping me from my projects, I should be able to hang around the forum more often. I'm just a little upset about the Photobucket thing and that I have to go back and repopulate Challenger and Discovery. Anyhow, I've been overlooking the conversation about the insulation and rings at the bottom of the SRB's. Of course you will come up with a scratch way of building them. I thought I would share with you the parts I had picked up for my Discovery build. Here's a glance at the items. Let me know if you can't see the photos, as I'm trying to find another way of uploading and sharing pictures. These are from the New Ware enhancement kit. I've already used some of it on the Revell orbiter and about ready to put some on the ET. But that's a lot of work sanding the moldings. I've got an order in for a new Airfix model. I'll see how things line up with that before I proceed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted January 19, 2018 Author Share Posted January 19, 2018 15 hours ago, crackerjazz said: You'll have to cut up some bare metal foil. It's self-adhesive. I also have some foil insulation tape from the hardware store's hvac aisle. It's pretty thin. I'll be using it on the LM-5 coffin. Hi Joe, how wide is this tape and have you a link? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 (edited) Hi Manfred, it looks like below. I'm sure you'll find the equivalent at your local hardware's ducting section. You'll have to cut it into 1mm strips using a straight edge and a brand new blade so the edges don't shear. https://www.uline.ca/Product/Detail/S-18880/3M-Single-Coated-Tapes/3M-3311-Aluminum-Foil-Tape-2-x-50-yds?pricode=YD055&gadtype=pla&id=S-18880&gclid=CjwKCAiAy4bTBRAvEiwAFtatHPxvzkHKlvuP2ZHW2mt6MDVJOVaXUhuwJlbCTzdeZR3QOlew-OjfxhoCuL0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds Let me do some modifications on the wall thickness of the model -- I got a reject message from Shapeways due to the walls being too thin. I should be able to upload the updated model soon. Edited January 19, 2018 by crackerjazz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted January 19, 2018 Author Share Posted January 19, 2018 18 hours ago, egt95 said: ... Hi Mike, great to see, that your are back on track again, because I missed you and your interesting projects - with photos!!! Thanks for the new photos about using the Resin parts of the Newware kit in combination with the Revell Boosters. BTW, I have also already considered whether to buy this kit, even though I use the Airfix Stack Kit. But these huge resin blocks have scared me away hitherto, which one has to remove in order to can use the small parts. The AFTC rings look great, but the STS-6 Booster had this Instafoam insulation not yet, so I have persuaded Joe for modeling an Early version for me in 3D without Instafoam, which looks great so far. Based on your photo, I have estimated the width of the AFTC strips, which is slightly smaller than 1 mm, right? Last but not least, I would appreciate it very well, if you could repopulate your Challenger and Discovery Threads with your amazing photos. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted January 20, 2018 Author Share Posted January 20, 2018 Hello everybody, and so once more back to the photo of the Columbia with the AFTC silver strips in the collection of George Gassaway (without mission number), which after intensive research I can assign meanwhile, which is always important to me, and here with the right source. Source: spacefacts.de After I firstly have scoured through the NASA Media Archive and then the website of Capcomespace in the 3rd attempt at Spacefacts, I finally have found out that it deals with the STS-50 (1992). And through this search, I now know that these silver foil insulation strips on the AFTCs were used at least until STS-85 (1997) and disappeared only later. Source: spacefacts.de On this photo of the STS-89 (1998) one can recognize even at Hi-Res. no more silver strips with security, I imagine at least with my meanwhile trained silver-strip-eye. Source: mediaarchive.ksc.nasa.gov On the other hand, I think that in this photo of the STS-99 (2000), one can easily see at Hi-Res. that there were no silver strips, what then also remained until the end of the Space Shuttle program with STS-135 (2011). Source: mediaarchive.ksc.nasa.gov From the intervening seven missions STS-90, STS-91, STS-95, STS-88, STS-96, STS-93 and STS-103 I could not find any reliable photos unfortunately until now, whereby one should not be wondered about the unsystematic numbering of the missions. If any of you find usable photos of it, please let me know. Now that's enough of the long AFTC searches, i.e. one photo I still want to show finally, namely this one here, Source: Library of Congress (HAER No. TX-116-K-21) with an interesting view at the inside of this ring-shaped hollow flexible flame curtain (George Gassaway), and here once more a larger view. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 Hi Manfred, I've uploaded the file to Shapeways https://www.shapeways.com/product/DX4BP6KHQ/1-144-srb-aft-skirt-thermal-curtain-astc-2pcs Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted January 20, 2018 Author Share Posted January 20, 2018 (edited) Hi Joe, thank you for your great job, I have bought the first couple. Can't wait to hold it in my hands and to have a close look at them. Hopefully, Shapeways will soon greenlight it. Edited January 20, 2018 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crowe-t Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 These came out perfect! Manfred, Did you get the Frosted Ultra Detail or the Frosted Extreme Detail? Mike. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted January 20, 2018 Author Share Posted January 20, 2018 Thanks Mike, it is Frosted Ultra Detail, let's see what that looks like, maybe then one could choose Frosted Extreme Detail too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 You're most welcome. Just remember to keep your expectations low -- it's a printed part and not a smooth kit part : ) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted January 20, 2018 Author Share Posted January 20, 2018 And already that's why it's interesting to see the difference between different materials and their surface quality in order to get a better feeling for 3D prints. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Slartibartfast Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 Happy New Year, Manfred. It's a pleasure to see you continuing your stupendous build. Best wishes for its completion. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted January 21, 2018 Author Share Posted January 21, 2018 Thanks Slartibartfast for your nice compliment, and for you also a Happy New Year. I am glad that you enjoy my work so much. Stay tuned furthermore. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ralf Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Hi everyone... I am back. Regarding the Shapeway parts. I would be interested how rough those prints are. I've bought a FDM 3D printer and even if the quality of the parts are good the print lines are visible. So the parts need some sanding and filling. I wonder how the Shapeway parts compare to home 3d printer. Great work as always Manfred. I don't think I can much add to the universal praise of your build. It's really great stuff and I mean all of the 71 pages. I really enjoy your progress updates. Cheers Ralf Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted January 24, 2018 Author Share Posted January 24, 2018 Thanks Ralf for your nice words, yep, the surface roughness of 3D prints still seems to be a certain problem, but I still cannot judge it because I did not have any 3D print in my hand yet. But hopefully that will change soon when I get my first two AFTCs in Frosted Ultra Detail (FUD), then I can say a little bit more. As far as I know, the roughness is depending on the print direction and in particular respectively on the layer height. As written by Shapeways, FUD and FED (Frosted Extreme Detail) are both made of a UV cured acrylic polymer. While both offer high resolution, FED uses a 16 micron layer height to produce incredibly fine features, which I will also use, in order to be able to compare both sorts. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted January 24, 2018 Author Share Posted January 24, 2018 Hello everybody, a friend of our Raumcon-Forum has sent me a small roll of silver adhesive foil for testing. The foil is so thin that one can hardly measure its thickness (about 0.03 mm), and was of course tried the same time, for which I have cut small 1 mm wide strips with a brand-new cutter knife. which I then glued tentatively onto an Airfix Aft Skirt-Ring, which seems to be a practicable solution. Then I also glued three of these foil strips on the half pipe (right). And finally respectively 24 strips must be glued onto the 3D printed and painted ASTC Rings, which might be a bit of fiddling, but should be feasible. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 0.03 mm, wow. Maybe I should have made the grooves even thinner? The current ones are gonna telegraph right onto the foil and you'll end up with foil strips with grooves in the middle after burnishing :( Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hotdog Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 I can tell you that Shapeways Frosted Extreme Detail is so smooth that you will probably not want to do anything to it. However, it's very expensive. Frosted Ultra Detail will leave some frosting texture on one side of the print, which is very annoying. White Strong & Flexible is rough, but can be smoothed with Smooth-On compound and filler primers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted January 24, 2018 Author Share Posted January 24, 2018 4 hours ago, crackerjazz said: 0.03 mm, wow. Maybe I should have made the grooves even thinner? The current ones are gonna telegraph right onto the foil and you'll end up with foil strips with grooves in the middle after burnishing :( Maybe, but if you look at this photo, one can see that the seams of the ASTC segments also become apparent a little bit under the foil. Source: georgesrockets.com Therefore let's wait and see. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted January 24, 2018 Author Share Posted January 24, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Hotdog said: I can tell you that Shapeways Frosted Extreme Detail is so smooth that you will probably not want to do anything to it. However, it's very expensive. Frosted Ultra Detail will leave some frosting texture on one side of the print, which is very annoying. White Strong & Flexible is rough, but can be smoothed with Smooth-On compound and filler primers. I want to believe you, and you can judge it because you know the differences. On the difference between FUD and FED I'm already curious too, and the price difference between € 7,14 and € 8,24 is not so huge. Edited January 24, 2018 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted January 25, 2018 Author Share Posted January 25, 2018 Hello together, well, I was rather amazed when I suddenly saw at noon today that the adhesive film strips had detached again from the rounding of the half pipe. Apparently, the adhesive film has certain residual stresses inside, which exceed the adhesive force of the strip after a certain time and lead to detachment. This can be seen on this piece of adhesive foil, which bulges itself to the silver side after cutting from the roll. A similar effect I noticed every now and then on some of the glued strip ends, which did not glue firmly enough and stood out a bit (≤ 1 mm), which I then again had to glue with MEK, and a very unruly end with CA. The household foil does not have these internal stresses, which is why their strips are still firmly fixed, furthermore they were glued with MEK respectively CA. However, I have to say in hindsight that I had not degreased the half pipe before gluing the adhesive foil strips, which could be the reason, what I will check again tomorrow. Then I had also ordered a Chrome marker (1 mm) at Rai-Ro, which arrived today, which of course I tried out right away. Around these markers of Molotow a real hype has arisen, whose highly pigmented special ink creates a real mirror effect on smooth, non-absorbent surfaces. At first, however, I could not cope with the marker because I did not know that it was a Pumpmarker, which had to be shaken and briefly pumped before use. While straight lines drawn with ruler are not a problem, using the marker on the half tube was a bit more difficult and definitely needs getting used to, which certainly requires some practice. Therefore, the first six strips on the right end are certainly not optimal, but at least a ray of hope. So much for the insights from my experiments today. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crowe-t Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Hi Manfred, The Molotow chrome marker is great for adding chrome to small areas. Don't spray any clear over it. Clear will case the chrome to turn silver. Mike. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted January 25, 2018 Author Share Posted January 25, 2018 Thanks Mike, good to know that this will happen. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
egt95 Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 I know it would be kind of tedious, but you could try masking the areas you want to draw with the Crome pen. That way you don’t have to stress on keeping your hand straight. Its looking fabulous though. Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted January 25, 2018 Author Share Posted January 25, 2018 Thanks Mike, this is also a good advice, which I have heeded meanwhile, as I will show. Hello friends, I have also still tried something else. At first, I degreased the half-tube with Isopropyl and then glued three new adhesive foil strips. In order to check a possible diameter influence, I also put a strip on my thick Rainbird knitting needle (Ø 8 mm), and lo and behold, there it still glues always firmly, without any signs of detachment, which seems to confirm my guess. On the other hand, on the thinner half-tube (Ø 4,7 mm) after a short while the ends began detaching again, what can be prevented however by fixing the ends with CA. Then I've made another attempt with the Chrome marker, for which I taped a 1 mm wide strip on the half-tube on both sides with tape (2 mm) and then painted this area by using the chrome marker simply by hand. But after removing the tape strips one can see that the chrome line is still not even, because the liquid partially creeps ugly under the tape. Besides, this procedure would be pure stress at 24 strips per Aft Skirt ring, except from the fact that the marked strips probably would not have the same width at the end anyway. But now we will wait for the delivery of the 3D ASTC prints, which I have now also ordered in Frosted Extreme Detail (FED). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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