Any teachers on summer vacation?

[Darren Roberts]

I'm 27, so i have been out of the public school system for about a decade, so I'll share my (limited) view on things.

To keep it as un-political as i can, it seems the more progressive push is hurting the overall education. Everyone is "special," everyone is "equal." Well thats just total BS. Kids are not equal. Some kids are just smarter. And some kids just don't get it. And parents get all butt hurt that their little Einstein can't figure out fractions. And its the teacher's fault that their kid just isnt smart enough. Some kids are just smarter than others. And thats OK! Not everyone is cut to be a rocket scientist.

But it seems the education system now is forced to cater to the kids that just don't get it, and that takes away from the smarter kids. (Again this is just my .02 worth.)

In my opinion, college is being pushed WAY to hard. College isn't for everyone. And I would hate to see just how many 20-somethings like me are wondering around with a degree but no prospect for jobs in their field of study.

If I had it to do again, I wish I would have pursued a VOCATION instead of a degree, before I got into family life. College just wasn't for me. I wish I would have learned a trade like carpentry. And thats where I believe the system is failing the kids that just aren't book smart. College is pushed upon them, even though they have no realistic chance of being accepted, or even wanting to be accepted.

Perfect example is my father-in-law. Dropped out of school when he was 15. Hated school. Book learning is just not his thing (although he is killer at arithmetic.) But today, he is a master plumber, one of the best in the area. Now transport him to this day and age, and how would the modern education system react to a 15 year old Larry Powell wanting to drop out of school to learn a trade?

I could go on and on and on, but I think I have madr my point. And again, this is just MY opinion based on my limited knowledge of the situation. If you think everything I have said is the dumbest thing ever typed out, well more power to ya.

This! My personal favorite is that in the SPED community, the regular classroom kids are now referred to as "non-exceptional".

[parche]

Guess I'll rethink my plan to teach after retiring from the Navy...

Cheers,

Dave

[Fishwelding]

It is fashionable to blame social politics because our current political system, increasingly modeled on professional sports fandom, likes such slogans as rallying cheers. But this is just cheap rhetoric. I suspect our educational problems stem from an old problem reinforced by a somewhat newer problem.

The old problem is that for over two centuries many Americans, having democratic (small "d," not referencing current political parties) tendencies, have always had contempt for teachers and education. Because there's something vaguely undemocratic about educational achievement, when you believe that school performance isn't the measure of a person. "Why should people with diplomas or degrees make more money, or have better jobs? They only demonstrated they can suck up to a petty tyrant called a teacher, not that they're really smart!" This, in turn, makes teachers basically a class who earns their bread producing aristocracy, gatekeepers on the stairwell to success, and upholders of inequality. Add to this other sneers just for good measure: "Those who can't do, teach." Teachers as intellectuals (or upholders of learning) are suspect, too, in a folksy democracy. These ideas are as old as the hills; in the Presidential campaign between the (somewhat) frontiersy tough-guy Andrew Jackson and the bookish New Englander John Quincy Adams, Jackson's campaign won by pointing out that while Adams can write, Jackson can fight. We love a good story about a tech millionaire who dropped out of school, don't we?

All this was manageable, for decades. Teachers took their lumps from precocious kids, contemptuous parents and mocking storytellers and journalists, but carried on in the business of educating American youth. But after World War II, the process of converting lots of goods and services to consumer goods, where the buyer's tastes was the one and only measure of appropriate quality, reached education. Now, the suburbanites want schools that, regardless of their child's behavior, performance or predilections, track them on a guaranteed road to elite success. When consumer-parents are confronted with the possibility that a school teacher cannot simply guarantee that their kid will be a successful doctor or lawyer, while entertaining them in the meantime, they respond with threats to sue, social media campaigns to undermine the teacher, and more broadly, threats to shop around for a "better" education for their kid. The last attacks the scale economies that, despite grand claims from silicon valley firms eager to skim education dollars, are still required to provide the broadest level of opportunity to children in society.

Like certain forms of healthcare, what is best in education is sometimes unpleasant. That tooth ache is going to require a root canal. Your child might need several years in a remedial special education program. In a consumer-minded world, the possibility that education might mean dedication and effort on the part of students and parents is simply unacceptable. Money paid, in the form of taxes or tuition, should simply cover all costs.

Parents who instinctively feel this way are not always monsters. Many really want the best for their kid, and assume that if they don't bully school teachers or administrators, or help their kids cheat by writing papers for them, they're not doing all they could to ensure their kids' success in later life. In some places, school officials can be secretive, unresponsive, or even vindictive toward parents who sincerely ask intelligent questions about what's going on in the school. But I tend to think that, until Americans move beyond the consumerist thinking that grew in the twentieth century, and now dominates our politics, we will not see substantial educational reform. I'm not sure if that makes me "Conservative" or "Liberal" in our pathetic political shouting matches of 2015, but I'd add that, when this happens, we'll probably learn a lot more about why not only schools, but many, many other institutions not in the business of producing luxury goods, are experiencing and charging higher costs, while struggling to produce quality services.

Edited June 20, 2015 by Fishwelding

[Darren Roberts]

Very interesting and insightful, Fishwelding. This was my favorite:

"Like certain forms of healthcare, what is best in education is sometimes unpleasant. That tooth ache is going to require a root canal. Your child might need several years in a remedial special education program. In a consumer-minded world, the possibility that education might mean dedication and effort on the part of students and parents is simply unacceptable. Money paid, in the form of taxes or tuition, should simply cover all costs. "

That pretty much sums it up right there. Thanks for your input on the discussion.

[DutyCat]

It is fashionable to blame social politics because our current political system, increasingly modeled on professional sports fandom, likes such slogans as rallying cheers. But this is just cheap rhetoric. I suspect our educational problems stem from an old problem reinforced by a somewhat newer problem.

The old problem is that for over two centuries many Americans, having democratic (small "d," not referencing current political parties) tendencies, have always had contempt for teachers and education. Because there's something vaguely undemocratic about educational achievement, when you believe that school performance isn't the measure of a person. "Why should people with diplomas or degrees make more money, or have better jobs? They only demonstrated they can suck up to a petty tyrant called a teacher, not that they're really smart!" This, in turn, makes teachers basically a class who earns their bread producing aristocracy, gatekeepers on the stairwell to success, and upholders of inequality. Add to this other sneers just for good measure: "Those who can't do, teach." Teachers as intellectuals (or upholders of learning) are suspect, too, in a folksy democracy. These ideas are as old as the hills; in the Presidential campaign between the (somewhat) frontiersy tough-guy Andrew Jackson and the bookish New Englander John Quincy Adams, Jackson's campaign won by pointing out that while Adams can write, Jackson can fight. We love a good story about a tech millionaire who dropped out of school, don't we?

All this was manageable, for decades. Teachers took their lumps from precocious kids, contemptuous parents and mocking storytellers and journalists, but carried on in the business of educating American youth. But after World War II, the process of converting lots of goods and services to consumer goods, where the buyer's tastes was the one and only measure of appropriate quality, reached education. Now, the suburbanites want schools that, regardless of their child's behavior, performance or predilections, track them on a guaranteed road to elite success. When consumer-parents are confronted with the possibility that a school teacher cannot simply guarantee that their kid will be a successful doctor or lawyer, while entertaining them in the meantime, they respond with threats to sue, social media campaigns to undermine the teacher, and more broadly, threats to shop around for a "better" education for their kid. The last attacks the scale economies that, despite grand claims from silicon valley firms eager to skim education dollars, are still required to provide the broadest level of opportunity to children in society.

Like certain forms of healthcare, what is best in education is sometimes unpleasant. That tooth ache is going to require a root canal. Your child might need several years in a remedial special education program. In a consumer-minded world, the possibility that education might mean dedication and effort on the part of students and parents is simply unacceptable. Money paid, in the form of taxes or tuition, should simply cover all costs.

Parents who instinctively feel this way are not always monsters. Many really want the best for their kid, and assume that if they don't bully school teachers or administrators, or help their kids cheat by writing papers for them, they're not doing all they could to ensure their kids' success in later life. In some places, school officials can be secretive, unresponsive, or even vindictive toward parents who sincerely ask intelligent questions about what's going on in the school. But I tend to think that, until Americans move beyond the consumerist thinking that grew in the twentieth century, and now dominates our politics, we will not see substantial educational reform. I'm not sure if that makes me "Conservative" or "Liberal" in our pathetic political shouting matches of 2015, but I'd add that, when this happens, we'll probably learn a lot more about why not only schools, but many, many other institutions not in the business of producing luxury goods, are experiencing and charging higher costs, while struggling to produce quality services.

I have been teaching in a mixed urban/suburban public school district for eight years now. My school has a very diverse student population.

I am curious about your background...what is driving your thoughts. You are going into a social theory area that almost no one in education circles has brought up. You are obviously an intelligent person, but with all due respect, what went on during the pioneering days is not relevant, and your perspective on educational achievement being "non-democratic" is off base. I think you are overthinking this and have entirely missed the "MAIN" problem with public schools today...social progressivism, especially the sub category of race politics. Until the civil rights era, America has always been a "make the best of yourself and be self reliant," including education. Today, we have removed most legal barriers on racism, sexism, religion, homosexuality, etc. However, the hoped for results have not come as quickly as perhaps we would have liked, so now the focus is on examining and correcting a presumption of institutional and cultural bias throughout our society, including, of course, where it all starts: education. From a social progressive viewpoint, the achievement gap is clear evidence of public school cultural bias. There is a disenfranschisement that exists between communities of color and public schools. What is not agreed upon is the reason why. Some folks buy into the cultural bias theory. Other folks say that the opportunity for learning is there for all students, but not everyone brings a positive attitude to class. It all begins at home, and a poor attitude often results in underachievement in any endeavor, especially education, which requires one to willingly engage intellectually. In many poor neighborhoods, education is not valued. This is unfortunate because a free public education is supposed to be the great equalizer...an opportunity for everyone, regardless of background, to acquire the skills needed to be successful in the workforce or secondary education. That is why some much effort has gone into desegregation. But, unfortunately, the erosion of overall public school quality and its attendant social problems have, perhaps predictably, gone hand in hand with desegregation. Tremendous efforts that have gone into desegregating the schools under the "separate is not equal," mantra, but it has not not worked, and because of that, an entire host of educational improvement initiatives have been, and continue to be rolled out to try to fix them problem "by any means necessary." But many educational "problems" stem primarily from this exhaustive attempt to address the achievement gap. All of the things you hear teachers complain about; lack of respect, reduced authority, less administrative support for discipline, transfer of learning responsibility from student to teacher (including teacher evaluations and "merit" pay), social promotions, student pass and graduation rates, etc. all stem from social progressive, mostly race based, politics.

So how do we fix it? "We" can't. The "government" can't. You, however, as an individual, and as a community, can. As a society, we just simply need to move beyond divisive politics. We all should just treat people as individuals. Each of us has to bear the legacy of our upbringing and culture...the strengths, and the weaknesses. Is up to each of us to capitalize on our strengths and attempt to better ourselves by addressing our weaknesses. The government should not be in the business of ensuring equal success among ethnic groups or individuals. It is up to individuals and communities.

[Darren Roberts]

As Spock would say, "Fascinating!" This conversation has gotten deep, and not in the bad way. I'm enjoying everyone's input. I think the bottom line, as Duty Cat has pointed out, that the problems are diverse and complex and there is no easy fix.

[Fishwelding]

I have been teaching in a mixed urban/suburban public school district for eight years now. My school has a very diverse student population.

Keep fighting the good fight. Many of us here support you.

I am curious about your background...what is driving your thoughts. You are going into a social theory area that almost no one in education circles has brought up. You are obviously an intelligent person, but with all due respect, what went on during the pioneering days is not relevant, and your perspective on educational achievement being "non-democratic" is off base. I think you are overthinking this and have entirely missed the "MAIN" problem with public schools today...social progressivism, especially the sub category of race politics.

I studied and, since 2005, taught American History, in community colleges and schools whose Roman Catholic orientation meant that practically, I've had kids in my class from quite well-to-do, largely Euro-American backgrounds, as well as a lot of poor minorities, and everything in between. I also teach and support fellow faculty in how to use the internet. In teaching and learning I've discovered that broader contexts, largely ignored in the day-to-day politics within or surrounding situations, matter a great deal. I should have been clearer about my "undemocratic" bit. I don't personally believe education is undemocratic, or I wouldn't be in the business. I was citing a popular belief that has appeared and reappeared in various politics, left and right, through U.S. history. People claim the past is irrelevant, and then proceed to make declarations about the past, like this one:

Until the civil rights era, America has always been a "make the best of yourself and be self reliant," including education. Today, we have removed most legal barriers on racism, sexism, religion, homosexuality, etc. However, the hoped for results have not come as quickly as perhaps we would have liked, so now the focus is on examining and correcting a presumption of institutional and cultural bias throughout our society, including, of course, where it all starts: education. From a social progressive viewpoint, the achievement gap is clear evidence of public school cultural bias. There is a disenfranschisement that exists between communities of color and public schools. What is not agreed upon is the reason why. Some folks buy into the cultural bias theory. Other folks say that the opportunity for learning is there for all students, but not everyone brings a positive attitude to class. It all begins at home, and a poor attitude often results in underachievement in any endeavor, especially education, which requires one to willingly engage intellectually. In many poor neighborhoods, education is not valued. This is unfortunate because a free public education is supposed to be the great equalizer...an opportunity for everyone, regardless of background, to acquire the skills needed to be successful in the workforce or secondary education. That is why some much effort has gone into desegregation. But, unfortunately, the erosion of overall public school quality and its attendant social problems have, perhaps predictably, gone hand in hand with desegregation. Tremendous efforts that have gone into desegregating the schools under the "separate is not equal," mantra, but it has not not worked, and because of that, an entire host of educational improvement initiatives have been, and continue to be rolled out to try to fix them problem "by any means necessary." But many [/size]educational "problems" stem primarily from this exhaustive attempt to address the achievement gap. All of the things you hear teachers complain about; lack of respect, reduced authority, less administrative support for discipline, transfer of learning responsibility from student to teacher (including teacher evaluations and "merit" pay), social promotions, student pass and graduation rates, etc. all stem from social progressive, mostly race based, politics.

In your classroom, district, or region, perhaps it comes down to racial or class lines. Throughout my time in higher education I've deliberately had many conversations with K-12 teachers (I think they tend to be the most innovative; more so than college faculty) from various districts in three rust-belt metropolitan areas I've lived in. From them I've learned that indifference or contempt for the substance of education seems to cross class and racial lines. Some do indeed complain of indifference among poor parents toward their child's education, but also among middling-sorts, and wealthier parents who have the wherewithal to help their kids end-run around teacher authority and school policies, and even do real professional damage to local teachers and administrators. (As a kid in a suburban community essentially run by business leaders and attorneys, I remember the widespread mantra that our teachers were only teachers to escape going to Vietnam. Luckily for me, my parents had utmost respect for--and made me respect--teachers and teaching.) So I cannot agree that all of the things I hear teachers complain about boil down simply to efforts to reengineer society for the benefit of a few minorities.

You may say to me that I have also limited perspective, as I teach college kids. Fair enough; we all have limited perspectives. Myself and other faculty I know have had a lot of kids who were in college against their will, cajoled or threatened, and paid for by parents who had the means to shove their kid through college. These kids aren't poor, but I see plenty of evidence that they simply do not believe in education, and they were passed through and out of public or private schools as a matter of course, as if their diploma was a right, not an accomplishment. How did they get that way, coming from "decent" school districts? I've suggested to one or two that they consider other paths, but I must be cautious, because I might incur the wrath of parents who don't appreciate me talking their kid into becoming a machinist or an electrician.

So how do we fix it? "We" can't. The "government" can't. You, however, as an individual, and as a community, can. As a society, we just simply need to move beyond divisive politics. We all should just treat people as individuals. Each of us has to bear the legacy of our upbringing and culture...the strengths, and the weaknesses. Is up to each of us to capitalize on our strengths and attempt to better ourselves by addressing our weaknesses. The government should not be in the business of ensuring equal success among ethnic groups or individuals. It is up to individuals and communities.

Our beliefs aren't that far apart, really. On education, as well as other things, I think American parents, voters, and taxpayers need to do more research than watching 24-hour news networks over breakfast, and cheering for their team as we approach the latest presidential election. (Pathetically, most Americans are indifferent to mid-term elections). Better still, people should recognize that some things, such as mastery of the kinds of concepts you teach in your classroom, matter, and that no amount of money can simply buy them or a route past them, to success. Students must apply themselves to the task and all of us should encourage our youth to do so.

We probably disagree on the existence of institutional or cultural bias, or what government should or should not do. But let's skip that, shall we? Or we'll understandably incur the wrath of those here who are tired of political back-and-forthism.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Fishwelding

[TaiidanTomcat]

Thank you for taking the time everyone to to explain.

I'm in a bit of a pickle because I have a fairly low opinion of public school (and zero tolerance for school administration) but I have a little one now so I'm stuck.

[Exhausted]

Have the last 15 years been good to education? If you don't care if your kids retain physical fitness or learn how to think like adults, then I guess you could call yourself happy.

In my opinion, schools need to return to teaching in a fashion that retains males longer, since the 1970s push to graduate more females has disproportionately hurt young males' chances of continuing their education. Local governments need to step in and check that the schools are teaching the things that they want to see taught (within respectable framework) so that state and Fed govs don't force localities to abandon what's important to them. On one hand, this means kids can learn more about serving in their local workforce as workers AND leaders, and on the other hand this also means teaching in Spanish where needed as well.

America has had a big role since the end of WWII, and that is leading the world in technology and security. In those years the Federal Government offered little to local schools which had to get by on local taxes or state funds. LBJ said he wanted every child to get as much education as he could handle, but the system has ballooned (against LBJ's intentions) into a bureaucracy that doesn't measure knowledge, but instead measures all things funding. Miss too many days of school while caring for your sick mom? Go to court and get some jail time for it. Make the grades but missed too many days? Repeat until the machine makes its dues back, even if it just punishes home owners paying you to learn something you already know.

Just remember, if you don't have kids you're still stuck with the problem of paying for schools. There's no getting out of paying for education as long as you pay property tax, or rent from someone who does. So much of modern liberalism was proliferating education to those had the least of it, but backlash from those who opposed it has instead turned into delaying the issue of education with roadblocks near every turn, and they set their sights on confusing the general public enough to paralyze democracy (by over-saturating airwaves with absurd opinions as to make all issues undiscussable). So tell your kids that their education will only be as good as the last generation thinks is "good enough" for them, and that their best hopes may still end up working jobs with no security, receiving just enough pay to get them into church and the bar, and finishing it all up by trading retirement for an early death.

[Fishwelding]

Thank you for taking the time everyone to to explain.

I'm in a bit of a pickle because I have a fairly low opinion of public school (and zero tolerance for school administration) but I have a little one now so I'm stuck.

Give 'em a chance. Take some time to go to public forums, or even just ask to speak with your kids' teachers. Ask them what they think their problems are. Ask 'em what you should be doing as a parent to keep your kid on track viz. their class. You may not agree with what they say, and that's cool, but you may acquire some perspective on how they think.

You're probably in a job where you get frustrated by people who, if they only knew the burdens of your gig, it might make your job a little easier and give you a chance to do better by them. And you probably believe that the "customer" is not always right.

[TaiidanTomcat]

I see what you are saying. But I've also been the bug to their windshield. I'm not hesitant for no reason :)

[DutyCat]

Keep fighting the good fight. Many of us here support you.

I studied and, since 2005, taught American History, in community colleges and schools whose Roman Catholic orientation meant that practically, I've had kids in my class from quite well-to-do, largely Euro-American backgrounds, as well as a lot of poor minorities, and everything in between. I also teach and support fellow faculty in how to use the internet. In teaching and learning I've discovered that broader contexts, largely ignored in the day-to-day politics within or surrounding situations, matter a great deal. I should have been clearer about my "undemocratic" bit. I don't personally believe education is undemocratic, or I wouldn't be in the business. I was citing a popular belief that has appeared and reappeared in various politics, left and right, through U.S. history. People claim the past is irrelevant, and then proceed to make declarations about the past, like this one:

In your classroom, district, or region, perhaps it comes down to racial or class lines. Throughout my time in higher education I've deliberately had many conversations with K-12 teachers (I think they tend to be the most innovative; more so than college faculty) from various districts in three rust-belt metropolitan areas I've lived in. From them I've learned that indifference or contempt for the substance of education seems to cross class and racial lines. Some do indeed complain of indifference among poor parents toward their child's education, but also among middling-sorts, and wealthier parents who have the wherewithal to help their kids end-run around teacher authority and school policies, and even do real professional damage to local teachers and administrators. (As a kid in a suburban community essentially run by business leaders and attorneys, I remember the widespread mantra that our teachers were only teachers to escape going to Vietnam. Luckily for me, my parents had utmost respect for--and made me respect--teachers and teaching.) So I cannot agree that all of the things I hear teachers complain about boil down simply to efforts to reengineer society for the benefit of a few minorities.

You may say to me that I have also limited perspective, as I teach college kids. Fair enough; we all have limited perspectives. Myself and other faculty I know have had a lot of kids who were in college against their will, cajoled or threatened, and paid for by parents who had the means to shove their kid through college. These kids aren't poor, but I see plenty of evidence that they simply do not believe in education, and they were passed through and out of public or private schools as a matter of course, as if their diploma was a right, not an accomplishment. How did they get that way, coming from "decent" school districts? I've suggested to one or two that they consider other paths, but I must be cautious, because I might incur the wrath of parents who don't appreciate me talking their kid into becoming a machinist or an electrician.

Our beliefs aren't that far apart, really. On education, as well as other things, I think American parents, voters, and taxpayers need to do more research than watching 24-hour news networks over breakfast, and cheering for their team as we approach the latest presidential election. (Pathetically, most Americans are indifferent to mid-term elections). Better still, people should recognize that some things, such as mastery of the kinds of concepts you teach in your classroom, matter, and that no amount of money can simply buy them or a route past them, to success. Students must apply themselves to the task and all of us should encourage our youth to do so.

We probably disagree on the existence of institutional or cultural bias, or what government should or should not do. But let's skip that, shall we? Or we'll understandably incur the wrath of those here who are tired of political back-and-forthism.

I was referring to your reference to the FAR past. Thanks for taking the time to clarify your background and perspective. I appreciate it.

There may or may not be cultural bias. It really depends on how you define it. If you are largely empathetic to the black struggle in America and think that generations of affirmative action are needed to right the ship, then you might be inclined to say yes. On the other hand, if you are one who thinks that black inner city culture in the modern era is largely pathological and self propagating, then you might be inclined to say, "let it go and embrace those behaviors and values that have proven successful in society...basic things like ownership of one's actions, or using adverse conditions as motivation to try harder, instead of an excuse for underachievement."

We really aren't going to solve the problem here as it is deeply rooted. However, we have given some curious folks an idea of its social and political complexity, and what teachers have to deal with every day.