Phantom Stab Reinforcement Plates

[Gene K]

I've seen discussions on the triangular reinforcement plates on Phantoms stabilators, but can't remember the details. Evidently the mod was not limited to the USAF models as I've seen statements such as, "Most Navy Phantoms didn't have them", (but no specifics mentioned)

So ... would someone please link me to info on the mod, in particular which Phantom models had them? Time periods would also be appreciated, especially for USN J models.

Thanks,

Gene K

[Whiskey]

Applied to all Navy F-4J, F-4N and F-4S aircraft (and some F-4Bs) as well as what was added to the USAF F-4E and F-4G aircraft during overhaul. These panels seem to be apparent on ALL Phantom variants in their later careers in various Air Forces. As far as specific time frames I couldn't find anything without digging into my books and it's getting too late for that lol.

[Rex]

Zach, I think you have the slotted leading edge mixed up with the triangular reinforcement plates.

I too would like to see or hear of USN aircraft and dates applied for those plates, if it was done on any.

The only one I can think of might be the F-4B that had an F-4C's stabilator installed as a field repair in Vietnam, due to battle damage,,,,,,,,but, I don't have that cruisebook handy anymore. (it is still at my Uncle's place) And even then, that one could possibly have been a standard non-slotted F-4C part,,,,,,I don't remember. (It's easy to spot, though, it is probably the only VMFA-115 F-4B with camo'd stabs.)

[Whiskey]

Whoops, double checked on that and you're right Rex. Sorry Gene.

[Ben Brown]

Gene,

I did a quick look through the F-4 pics I've downloaded over the years, and I don't see any Navy/USMC jets with the reinforcement plates. It looks like they started adding them to AF jets in the mid-70s. I didn't see a single SEA wraparound, Europe 1, or Hill Gray F-4C/D without them, or any Vietnam-era F-4s with them. I've got pics of F-4Es with and without them, right up to when they went to AMARC. I've also found pics of the same F-4E without them, then with them, then without them again. Maybe they only did the mod on an as-needed basis for the E/F/Gs, while the older C/Ds and RF-4Cs got them fleet-wide due to their age?

Ben

[Gene K]

I did a quick look through the F-4 pics I've downloaded over the years, and I don't see any Navy/USMC jets with the reinforcement plates.

Thanks, Ben,

I had always been under the impression that the reinforcement plates were only on USAF models (and on countries' that bought these), but I've recently come across contradicting statements such as these that follow.

Scott Van Aken says this here: "Finally, only a few F-4Js had the triangular reinforcement plate on the stabilizer"

and on this interesting build, the author says:

Okay I goofed another thing up about Phantoms. I should've posted "MOST Navy/Marine Phantoms don't have this feature".

If you have the Blue Angels book that came with most recent Blue Angel release of the Monogram F-4J, you'll find the picture of an F-4J with the arrow shape.

[Posted Image]

It's on page 25 at the top of the page. It's F-4J BuNo 153086.

Another image is in the Bildband Pictorial USMC Phantoms book.

[Posted Image]

On page 31 bottom image. It's F-4J BuNo153771 and it also clearly shows the arrow shape.

Those 2 F-4Js are the only ones that I have found pics showing the arrow shape. I'm sure if I keep digging, I can probably find a few more."

The reason this subject came up (for me) is that a company doing a flight simulation of the F-4J asked me ... and I can't provide specific details to back up my "assumption" that the USN Phantoms didn't have those plates. Not so sure anymore ....

Gene K

[Ben Brown]

Some Blue angels had them? Hmmm, must investigate further....

Ben

[Rex]

Gene, I think you ought to tell the Flight Sim people "No".

Unless they are planning to do the paint skin as one of the 3 or 4 possible exact BuNos that used the plates (If you can those photos), the chances are that they are going to do one of the other hundreds of F-4Js.

What they really need to concentrate on as far as accuracy goes,,,,is whether they are painting a skin that didn't live long enough to get the fuselage DECM mod. It is really easy to assume that "all J's got those",,,,,when in fact that is really "most surviving J's got those" (because aside from the possiblity of that jet being lost before the program started,,,,not all J's got the DECM even if they did live that long)

[Gene K]

I think you ought to tell the Flight Sim people "No".

yes, but I wanted to add some factual credibility. I may have to give them your name, Rex! :salute:/>/>

Gene K

[Rex]

haha, go right ahead, Gene. I ain't skeert.

You know that I like the "different" Phantoms, like the thin winged YF-4J, or thin YF-4E, the Bicentennial bird before that paint job, etc. I would love to have a photo of "wedge-plated" F-4J stabs.

I wouldn't dream of building one of those "ringers" for a contest,,,,,,but, for "display only", something like that would be a blast, with the "authentication packet" sitting next to the model, of course.

[Richard J]

I'm pretty sure I've got a photo of a post-Vietnam F-4B with the reinforcement plate. If memory serves, it's a VF-32 jet. I think. As Rex said, it's probably down to being a USAF replacement part, but the photo I'm thinking of was definitely taken after the Vietnam war.

Edited July 27, 2015 by Richard J

[Rex]

If you have Aircraft Pictorial number 6 on the F-4B/N, you'll see that there is "something" going on in that area on some of the F-4B pics, VF-14, 32, 31 and 74 show up the clearest.

It looks rectangular, but, it is right where the USAF wedges went on the ground based aircraft.

[Gene K]

If you have Aircraft Pictorial number 6 on the F-4B/N, ...

I think you meant to include this:

Here's an interesting stab ... but can't really tell what the plate is, if any:

Hopefully Tommy H. Thomason jumps in at some point.

Gene K

Edited July 28, 2015 by Gene K

[Scott R Wilson]

Gene,

I did a quick look through the F-4 pics I've downloaded over the years, and I don't see any Navy/USMC jets with the reinforcement plates. It looks like they started adding them to AF jets in the mid-70s. I didn't see a single SEA wraparound, Europe 1, or Hill Gray F-4C/D without them, or any Vietnam-era F-4s with them. I've got pics of F-4Es with and without them, right up to when they went to AMARC. I've also found pics of the same F-4E without them, then with them, then without them again. Maybe they only did the mod on an as-needed basis for the E/F/Gs, while the older C/Ds and RF-4Cs got them fleet-wide due to their age?

Ben

I know stabilator changes were pretty common, that's why a particular tail number might have them, then not have them. We had a few at Ramstein that had the reinforcements on the bottom but not the top, too.

I'm fairly sure that I have one photo of an F-4J with the plates on top, when I get the chance I'll do some digging to see if my memory is correct or playing tricks on me again.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Scott R Wilson

[Rex]

Yeah, Gene, that is what some of the others look like, too. That one is a late B. But, some of the other aircraft in the book are from before the F-4J was invented, and still have the original stabs on them.

[Richard J]

It seems to me that there was a lot of variation on the navy Phantoms stabilators. A shallow rectangular "notch" of white at the end of the torque box skin is apparent on a lot of aircraft, and it's not limited to any particular time frame that I can see. As regards to the triangular shaped reinforcer that was normally seen on later USAF aircraft, the following photos show something a bit more like that. Sort of…

[Gene K]

Appreciate all the inputs ... which all cloud the "issue" a bit. :blink:/>/> So as concerns the J model, the wishy washy answer is, "Some J models appear to have had the triangular reinforcing plate, but by far, most did not". WEAK!

As long as we're talking about the F-4 stab, here are some pictures taken at Naval Aviation Museum here in Pensacola. Some may find it interesting that :

There's a good bit of space between the stab and fuselage:

And here's one that surprises most folks :woot.gif:/>/>/>/>/>/>/>/> : the stab isn't one solid piece - the back of the parts where the metallic section meets the outer panel are not joined:

Also note the extension under the stab tip - it's square shaped in cross section and hollow. Makes a good skid guard. :unsure:/>/>/>

Gene K

[JeffreyK]

...that's why the outer (painted) portion of the stab sometimes came off after high-stress flights. Apparently jumping up and grabbing the stab on the outer portion was a non-standard pre-flight check. If nothing happened - passed. If the part came off - fail. The fish plate is a strengthening of just that joint.

The skid strip on the bottom is included in my resin stabs btw., even the hole is moulded in.

[Tailspin Turtle]

Hopefully Tommy H. Thomason jumps in at some point.

Gene K

Sorry - I don't have much more than already provided by others: I'm hopeful that someone will come up with a customer-support document or technical bulletin that will explain it. However, Scott Van Aken notes that the triangular reinforcement on F-4Es appeared along with the maneuvering-slat wings (http://modelingmadness.com/scott/viet/us/standf4.htm). My guess is that all USAF F-4 stabilators were then built or modified with this particular change. It does appear that the Navy repair and overhaul facility designed a different reinforcement for this area but possibly only as a standard repair (a quick look suggests that it was not introduced with the F-4S maneuver slats; in any event, it was not exactly the same configuration: see http://tailspintopics.blogspot.com/2012/12/f-4s-wing.html). It's likely that an F-4J stabilator with triangular plates might have been drawn from Air Force stocks out of necessity.

For a pretty good dimensioned drawing of the basic F-4 stabilizer, see http://tailhooktopics.blogspot.com/2012/11/f-4-stabilator.html

[Scott R Wilson]

...that's why the outer (painted) portion of the stab sometimes came off after high-stress flights. Apparently jumping up and grabbing the stab on the outer portion was a non-standard pre-flight check. If nothing happened - passed. If the part came off - fail. The fish plate is a strengthening of just that joint.

The skid strip on the bottom is included in my resin stabs btw., even the hole is moulded in.

I only saw the results of two in-flight structural failures of stabilators in my six years of working on F-4Cs and F-4Es. One was at George AFB on an F-4E, and the other at Zaragoza AB, Spain, a 52 TFW Phantom (whether an F-4E or F-4G I can't remember). On both it was the rectangular bare metal trailing edge panel up close to the fuselage that snapped off on one side or the other. As I've mentioned, stabilator changes were very common due to cracks and delaminations of the honeycomb structure and skin panels.

I just spent a good hour or two going through the 478 F-4B/N images and 974 images of F-4Js and Ss I have collected. It seems any signs of the reinforcement plates whether rectangular or triangular are quite rare on Navy Phantoms. The triangular ones don't appear to be the same as those found on USAF versions. Here are all of the images I have that show so much as a hint of a reinforcement, to be continued in a following post:

[Scott R Wilson]

[SCOUT712]

Scott, do you happen to know at which year the pic of the VF-191 bird was taken?

Thanks

Michael

[Ben Brown]

Some of those look similar to the ones on the British F-4s (from Prime Portal):

Ben

[Gene K]

I just spent a good hour or two going through the 478 F-4B/N images and 974 images of F-4Js and Ss I have collected. It seems any signs of the reinforcement plates whether rectangular or triangular are quite rare on Navy Phantoms. The triangular ones don't appear to be the same as those found on USAF versions.

As usual, Scott, thanks! You are the Phantom-Man. I really appreciate the F-4 knowledge that experts like yourself, Ben, and Rex (among others) share.

Gene K

Edited July 31, 2015 by Gene K

[Richard J]

I'm guessing the F-4J in this photo probably could have done with some kind of reinforcement there!