Specter1075 Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 Hello all, This may be too specific a question, but I searched through old topics and didn't quite get what I need. I will be building a 1:48 VF-55 A-6E that attacked Benina AF in 1986. As noted in the title, I intend to do one of the birds that was equipped with CBUs. Two questions: First, are there any exterior differences between the CBU-59 APAM and Mk-20 Rockeyes? My understanding is that the sub-munitions are the main difference. Secondly, and likely the most tricky question, I am having a hard time figuring out how many CBU's would have been carried by each A/C. I have seen different sources give different numbers of total bomb units deployed, but without further specifics. It does seem clear that the A/C did NOT deploy with four full MER's of CBUs, and in one old thread, someone said that they deployed with 4 bombs per MER (two on the bottom, and two on the outboard?) Can anyone give any additional insight to how they would have been deployed? Would they have gone out with fuel tanks at all? From what I have read, I do not think the carriers were extremely far off-shore, and the Benghazi area targets are not far in-land. Any info would be really appreciated! Thanks very much! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finn Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 (edited) Some pics can be seen here, scroll down a bit: https://www.usscoralsea.net/pics1980s8.php In the pics you can see the external difference between the APAM and Rockeye. Also most a/c carried a external tank on the centerline but at least one had a buddy refuelling pod, you can see it in one of the pics. My understanding is they carried 4 bombs on each MER as per the configuration you mentioned. Jari Edited April 27, 2019 by Finn Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Specter1075 Posted April 27, 2019 Author Share Posted April 27, 2019 (edited) Thanks very much! If my memory is good, I think it was some of your posts I was reading in older threads too. Thank you for your help then and now! I guess no one makes a 1:48 CBU-59, eh? Edited April 27, 2019 by Specter1075 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Collin Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 APAM uses the same ROCKEYE dispenser, main ID factor is the giant lightning bolt on the side of the weapon. https://picryl.com/media/flight-deck-crewmen-from-attack-squadron-55-va-55-prepare-an-a-6e-intruder-707bad I’m sure Gerry will be along with more details. Note the single yellow band (assume non-TP), older nose fuse (339), and the bolt of lightning. Never saw these on the flight deck in the 90’s, we never had a reason to carry them unlike ROCKEYE CBU-99/100 (we might have still had them in the bomb lockers below). Looking forward to seeing your build. Cheers Collin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Skull Leader Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 10 hours ago, Specter1075 said: It does seem clear that the A/C did NOT deploy with four full MER's of CBUs, and in one old thread, someone said that they deployed with 4 bombs per MER (two on the bottom, and two on the outboard?) Can anyone give any additional insight to how they would have been deployed? This was a common arrangement for a lot of aircraft carrying MERs. This is referred to as a "slant four" loadout. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GW8345 Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 (edited) Collin hit it on the head, the only external difference between a (NTP) Mk 20 Rockeye and a CBU-59/B APAM was the lightning bolt on either side, the lightning bolt was insignia blue. As for the load, Finn is correct, they when out with 4x4 CBU-59/B's (4 MER's with 4 slant loaded CBU-59/B) and a centerline tank/buddy store. To make a CBU-59, just get a Mk 20 Rockeye and paint it up like an NTP Mk 20 and then add an insignia blue lightning bolt on the 3 and 9 o'clock side, you now have a CBU-59/B. Edited April 27, 2019 by GW8345 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Specter1075 Posted April 27, 2019 Author Share Posted April 27, 2019 Thanks again for the replies! I'm glad to hear that the Rockeye casing is used! I bought AOA Decals set for the A-6Es in Libya and the Gulf, and they provide lightning bolts for the CBUs, so I can get away with using more readily available Rockeye sets. From the pictures I've found, the slant four set-up always used the outer rack of the MER. Was there a reason for that? Maybe something as simple as being easier to load those points for the ordnance guys? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GW8345 Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 7 minutes ago, Specter1075 said: Thanks again for the replies! I'm glad to hear that the Rockeye casing is used! I bought AOA Decals set for the A-6Es in Libya and the Gulf, and they provide lightning bolts for the CBUs, so I can get away with using more readily available Rockeye sets. From the pictures I've found, the slant four set-up always used the outer rack of the MER. Was there a reason for that? Maybe something as simple as being easier to load those points for the ordnance guys? The reason for the slant loads to be on the outboard side is to prevent what's called store to store collision during multiple weapon releases. If the MER's were loaded were the bombs would be facing each other they would collide when they were released. Also, the reason why the inboard side of the MER on the inboard stations are not loaded is due to the possibility of store to aircraft collision. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hewy Posted April 29, 2019 Share Posted April 29, 2019 On 4/27/2019 at 10:17 PM, Specter1075 said: Thanks again for the replies! I'm glad to hear that the Rockeye casing is used! I bought AOA Decals set for the A-6Es in Libya and the Gulf, and they provide lightning bolts for the CBUs, so I can get away with using more readily available Rockeye sets. From the pictures I've found, the slant four set-up always used the outer rack of the MER. Was there a reason for that? Maybe something as simple as being easier to load those points for the ordnance guys? What kit, and mers are you using, revell, hobbyboss? I know The 1/48 aftermarket mers from eduard are nicley detailed but they are a bit short for revell, hobby boss or eduards own cbu's or rockeyes for that matter, to varying degrees, there are a couple of builds in the forum mentioning it. and my own 48th scale warhorses hb a6 build has (temporarily) stalled because of it , if your already clued in on this fair do's, hope it go's well, My thoughts, if your using the very nicely detailed 1/48 hb kit, is to buy the mistake ridden 48th hb corsair a7 e kit, £22 in the UK, with this you'll get the CBUs to add to the hb a6 CBUs to make the slant 4 configuration, and the extra two mers (only two provided in each kit), and other smart bombs and bits for the spares box, bin the fuselage halves, or build it and don't worry ,it's up to you , eduard mers will cost you nearly double this, 3 in each pack @ £16 each pack, only trying to pass on help if your doing 48th, hope this helps Glynn Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Specter1075 Posted April 30, 2019 Author Share Posted April 30, 2019 Thanks GW8345! Hi Hewy, The kit I have is the Hobbyboss 1:48 A-6E. Are you saying the MER racks themselves don't fit well, or the CBU's? I haven't inventoried the kit yet, but you're saying it only comes with two racks? So I'd need two more? I'll look into that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hewy Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 Hobbyboss mers and CBUs fit fine, now you've identified your kit, there are only two mers in it, so you'll need another two, from somewhere, if you end up buying eduards mers it will be expensive as you'll need two sets(3per box) And its the eduard mers that pose fit problems with either they're own resin bombs or the kit ones, you'll also need more CBUs from what I remember there aren't enough on the hobbyboss sprues for a slant 4 load (16), probably the cheapest and guaranteed fit is to buy the hobbyboss A7e kit and use the 2 mers and the CBUs you need from it(same weopons sprues) and you get a load of stuff left over😁, this kit can be had for around £22 in the UK, all the best hope that's clearer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Specter1075 Posted April 30, 2019 Author Share Posted April 30, 2019 Yep, I understand perfectly now. I have some thinking to do. I did a quick look on eBay, and the HB A-7 does indeed come quite cheap, it just seems like a shame to buy it only for a couple parts. How bad are the fit problems with Eduard's MER set and resin bomb set? Have you seen both together? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hewy Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 (edited) Hi specter.have a look at. A10 -LOADER 'S REVELL-monogram a6 tram intruder build, in the in progress section.you may have to type it in search. he highlights the issues with the CBUs and mers from eduard. I've got eduard mers and the eduard snakeyes for mine and can confirm they dont fit either. Glynn Btw hasegawas weapon set costs nearly as much as the hobbyboss a7e Edited April 30, 2019 by Hewy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mrvark Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 They were loaded with 14 CBU-59s. Slant-four on the outboards; bottom two and rear outboard racks on the inboard MERs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Specter1075 Posted April 30, 2019 Author Share Posted April 30, 2019 Hewy, I found the topic. I'm dumbfounded that Eduard's own resin bombs don't fit their MER. Makes you wonder if they do any Q/A. I wonder if they are aware and will be planning to fix it. MrVark, thanks very much for the reply! Do you have first hand experience, or is there a source I can check out? Ive seen lots of pictures of them on deck with the CBU's but none of them loaded. Maybe none exist? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mrvark Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 50 minutes ago, Specter1075 said: MrVark, thanks very much for the reply! Do you have first hand experience, or is there a source I can check out? Ive seen lots of pictures of them on deck with the CBU's but none of them loaded. Maybe none exist? I'm working on a book about Eldorado Canyon and have been in contact with the A-6 crews who flew the Navy missions. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Specter1075 Posted April 30, 2019 Author Share Posted April 30, 2019 Ah, I'd say that's a solid source then! Any ETA for the book? I'd love to buy a copy! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mrvark Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 11 minutes ago, Specter1075 said: Ah, I'd say that's a solid source then! Any ETA for the book? I'd love to buy a copy! Pretty much done. Still needs a classification review and need to find a publisher. Far more detailed (and accurate) than anything published to date. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Specter1075 Posted April 30, 2019 Author Share Posted April 30, 2019 I hope to be reading it soon! Be sure to start a thread here to let us know its available! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mrvark Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 3 minutes ago, Specter1075 said: I hope to be reading it soon! Be sure to start a thread here to let us know its available! Will do. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Roof Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 1 hour ago, Specter1075 said: Hewy, I found the topic. I'm dumbfounded that Eduard's own resin bombs don't fit their MER. Makes you wonder if they do any Q/A. I wonder if they are aware and will be planning to fix it. MrVark, thanks very much for the reply! Do you have first hand experience, or is there a source I can check out? Ive seen lots of pictures of them on deck with the CBU's but none of them loaded. Maybe none exist? Eduard's MER's are a scale foot too short. The real thing is almost exactly 13 feet long and the resin items scale out to just under 12. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Specter1075 Posted April 30, 2019 Author Share Posted April 30, 2019 (edited) Well that's a pain, isn't it? I know 13 is an unlucky number but come on... So I guess best solution is to take Dewy's advice and get my hands on a HB A-7E. Edited April 30, 2019 by Specter1075 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hewy Posted May 1, 2019 Share Posted May 1, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, mrvark said: I'm working on a book about Eldorado Canyon and have been in contact with the A-6 crews who flew the Navy missions. If you may, do have info on the war horses snakeye loads, if that was similar to the CBUs load you mentioned, thanks Glynn Or will it be in the book? Edited May 1, 2019 by Hewy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finn Posted May 1, 2019 Share Posted May 1, 2019 This pic shows 4 Snakeyes on the inboard MER: the outboard MER is about to be loaded, most likely with 4 as well unless proved otherwise, you can see the forward stations have been prepped. the cartridge retainer caps are off. Jari Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hewy Posted May 1, 2019 Share Posted May 1, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, Dave Roof said: Eduard's MER's are a scale foot too short. The real thing is almost exactly 13 feet long and the resin items scale out to just under 12. Didn't know the 1/1 mers dimensions, but the amount the eduard mers are off doesn't surprise me, just looking at mers fitted A6s and then offering them up to the 48th scale model set alarm bells ringing, before trying them with bombs, just goes to show how spectacularly even well respected company's can get it so wrong. 11 minutes ago, Finn said: This pic shows 4 Snakeyes on the inboard MER: the outboard MER is about to be loaded, most likely with 4 as well unless proved otherwise, you can see the forward stations have been prepped. the cartridge retainer caps are off. Jari Jari this is what I was 90%sure of, but there was a lingering doubt, BTW a few weeks ago I followed my own advice and bought the hobbyboss A7e just for the mers and extra bombs, may use the kit as a paint mule my eduard ones will be resigned to the spares box, in time I hope to extend them using a couple of sacrificial eduard spares, Glynn, thanks Edited May 1, 2019 by Hewy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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