ya-gabor Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 1 hour ago, GeneK said: Thanks to Mr. Thunderbird (Ben). and ya-gabor. Did you find any mention of McDill AFB? I "seem" to recall that we received a couple of ex-TBs around 1975 with nose ballast. Further foggy recollection is that the F-4E could be flown without the gun or ballast installed if tank 7 were locked out. Anyone have more definite info? Gene K Hi Gene, I have only been scratching the surface so far. Always had an interest in the Thunderbirds and did some photography of them (F-16’s) when they visited here. About 20 or so years ago for an article did an F-16 in Thunderbirds colour but the Phantom was always of special interest. So about two weeks ago started to look into them thanks to the FineMolds new kit. Found those SEA camo examples. As far as I understand they were used for training from 1968 till the real display aircraft converted by McDonnell Douglas at St. Louise were handed over 19 th of April 1969 (first two: No.1 and No.3). It is interesting that at the beginning the Thunderbirds paint scheme was different! Actually already found one more addition to the list of surviving ex-Thunderbirds 66-0315 which is now at Monnett Missouri Veterans Memorial painted as No.3 How accurate it is difficult to tell from this distance, but it is in the air on a big (submarine) “thing” so most of the central fuselage part is obstructed from view. Will have to do more search in that list. Concerning the ballast. The nose had a “box” in place of the radar and as I understand this had the two bottles for pressurization of the dummy Sparrow oil tanks. But also it is visible that the nose cone had some additional metal ribs inside and some heavy metal frames also. Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paul Boyer Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 I remember seeing a published shot of the newly arrived (?) Thunderbird F-4Es flying in formation with no wing-tip stripes, just the bird on the bottom. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 4 minutes ago, Paul Boyer said: I remember seeing a published shot of the newly arrived (?) Thunderbird F-4Es flying in formation with no wing-tip stripes, just the bird on the bottom. Exactly!!!!! Thats the way they were painted in the aircraft factory in St. Louise and delivered to Thunderbirds! The wings underside did not have the strips on the outer part, only the "bird" on the fuselage center. Have no idea when the stripes were added. Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ben Brown Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 The Replica In Scale article on the T-Birds goes into detail about the evolution of the F-4E paint scheme. IIRC, the wing tip stripes were added soon after training started and the nose scallops started out a little differently, too. I was looking for a pic of the "Lizard" jets and found this grainy film of them, along with the jets later being painted white. Good shot of the starter smoke pouring out of Gabor's mystery parts on the belly, too! YouTube link Ben Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 (edited) Hi Ben, Those "tubes" are visible in another video but only for a fraction of a second. But there was somewhere a good colour video of Thunderbirds Phantom starting up in big black smoke! : ) : ) But what did other Phantoms do without those "tubes"??? In principle the engine was the same. Where did they "let it out"? : ) : ) Hi Gene, Yes, there is a 66-0302 on display at McDill AFB. Found it today. Here are few print screens for illustration. Best regards Gabor Edited April 9 by ya-gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 It was somewhere in the back of my mind that I seen photos somewhere in my archive of the SEA painted Thunderbirds. Right! One of the monographs on the F-4E had an image but also some instrument panel layouts for the demo aircraft. As well as a list of airframe numbers which were assigned to Thunderbirds. Just a bit more information to this puzzle. : ) : ) Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mike J. Idacavage Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 Gabor mentioned that there are a few surviving ex-Thunderbird Phantoms. The ones which could be of interest and are REAL ex Thunderbirds are: 66-0286 At Veteran Park but as far as I know it is either SEA camo now or still the white/red Edward test colours 66-0289 At Castle Air Museum 66-0294 at American Legion Tucson Arizona I am able to help with some photos of 66-0294. I visited that airframe back in 2008 and took some walkaround photos while I was with a Phantom Society group visiting the area. Here's a few that I took. Note that the tail still shows traces of the exhaust smoke under the white. Is this the best forum for any others that might be of interest? Have fun modeling! Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mike J. Idacavage Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 Ben, Gabor Is this one of the tubes that you are referring to on the underside? I have no ide as to its function, but it does stand out! Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 (edited) 3 hours ago, Mike J. Idacavage said: Ben, Gabor Is this one of the tubes that you are referring to on the underside? I have no ide as to its function, but it does stand out! Mike Hi Mike, All I can say is: WOW !!!!!!!!! : ) : ) : ) Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes, they are exactly the “boxes”/”tubes”/”shapes” on the underside that I was looking for. Quoting from the T.O. shared by Ben Brown: . . . Additional changes affecting the power plant are a starter exhaust duct . . . From what I can tell they are located on Service panels 78 & 80. So was it a cartridge type of starting procedure specially for the Thunderbirds engines? I would imagine yes, in view of all the shows that the Thunderbirds were doing, maybe even at places where an APU starter was not available. Who knows? Is this the right place for this discussion? I know Ben suggested on the previous page to have a dedicated Blue Angels / Thunderbirds forum here on ARC. Yes it would be appropriate but on the other hand it would have to go into the very obscure Research forum not really visited by members. If the exchange of questions / ideas / share of knowledge / or for example of the T.O. by Ben would have been in Research section I don’t think we would have had so many good infos surfacing from members like you! How often do you visit the Research site? or others who are reading all these details about the Thunderbirds and Blue Angels for that matter! In the past two-three days here we had around 400-450 views or more!!!!!!!!!!!! But of course I am open to suggestions. Where and under what name should this be discussed? Is this off-topic? Certainly some moderators in European forums would definitely consider it to be, immediately close it down and banish for life the participants! I don’t subscribe to that point of view! Is the “research” / “ask for help” of the past couple of pages connected in any way to the FineMolds F-4 Phantom??? Certainly, since they have just released the Thunderbirds version and the Blue Angels kit in 72nd will come in September from them. And actually this kit was the one which raised all the questions in me. Is it a help to modellers? Certainly in my opinion since it gives some ideas of what to do, correct, add to the out of box FineMolds F-4E Thunderbirds kit if you want a little more authenticity! I for one have been helped a lot by inputs both from you Mike, from Ben, from Tomcat Trebor, from GeneK . . . I do have some FineMolds Phantoms already in my stash and have to say when I seen the news of release of the Thunderbirds version, first I was not really sure if I would be interested, but now I am more and more positive that will buy one in few months time when they arrive here in Europe! So in a way the exchange of thoughts in the past pages has been of help and certainly connected to the original subject of this particular forum! I believe this is exactly what this modelling forum is for!!! To speak to each other and help if possible. I have to thank everyone so far and have to add that there is a chance that I will also be able to help others who want to build a Thunderbirs kit in future. More later if my idea works. Thanks again Mike! Really appreciated for taking the time!!! OK. 1. by any chance do you have an underside views of the tail section in vicinity of Station 615.50 where the smoke generator “tube” was originally. There should be a patch of some sort there, since most Thunderbird aircraft went on to serve in one way or the other and obviously the “tube” was removed. But it would be interesting to know where exactly on that heat shield panel it was located! 2. Is the gun muzzle simply the original “cut” short version with a piece of metal welded on at St. Louise to close-up the forward view of Vulcan barrels (which are not there anyway)? Or was it a purpose designed more elegant, more aerodynamic thing? To me it looks far more rounded in shape in comparison to the original! But who knows? It could be just an illusion of the gloss surface. Best regards Gabor Edited April 10 by ya-gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ben Brown Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 @Mike J. Idacavage, thank you for the awesome pics!! As for the opening for the smoke probe, Jennings Heilig checked another former T-Birds jet (can't recall which one) and the entire panel had been replaced, so there was no hole or patch. It would be interesting to know if the other survivors have that. Would the mods permit a sticky in this sub-forum? We'd definitely get a lot more input here, although a dedicated thread would show up in a Google search no matter which sub-forum it was in. Ben Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 (edited) So here is the “tube” in one of the Thunderbirds videos shown for a second. Unless you know what you are looking for it would be just a cut showing technicians at work. But it shows the actual Service panel 80 on the right side opened by two mechanics. (or it could be panel 139 next to it) The extreme gloss aircraft surface also plays a trick with all the reflections. And also the smoky engine start of the team. Best regards Gabor Edited April 10 by ya-gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 So what kind of stabilizers did those Thunderbirds Phantoms have??? Have a look here. There is an early video from around 1969 with No.1, No.2 and No.3 rolling out for take-off. Now is that a “fish tail” reinforcement or what on the stab? Had a look at different videos and the fish tail is also visible on them, but as far as I can see only on the top side. Actually there are no good underside views to show this are in close up. But here on the top in my opinion it is definitely there. What do you think? So to build the FineMolds kit one will need to add them at least on the top surface since the kit provides stabs with no fish tails. Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mike J. Idacavage Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 Hi Gabor, Ben! I am glad that you liked the photos I posted. It has been a long time since I last looked at them, so it was nice digging them out of an old file in preparation of the new Thunderbird FineMolds kit. Gabor, in a possible answer to your two questions above, here are some more photos I took of the Phantom on that day. I hope these are also useful! Have fun modeling! Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mike J. Idacavage Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 Interestingly, the “fish tail” reinforcement that Gabor mentioned does not seem to be present on the stabs for 66-0294 in its current state. I would guess that they would not have taken these off when they prepared the Phantom for its current display. At least, I don't see where the fish tails were mounted. Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 Hi Mike, Once again all I can say is WOW and a very big thank you!!!!!!! The fish tails. This is an interesting subject, here you see them, there you don’t. It is about time to invent a time travel machine! Based on history the Thunderbirds Phantoms were “collected” from different sources and who knows to what specification they were originally manufactured. Since they are close to each other based on factory numbers I would imagine fairly similar. What happened to them later is more interesting. On some images the fish tails are visible, even on aircraft in formation some have them while not on all. It would be fascinating to go back in time and make a list of every aircraft from every display season to get a 100% answer. As far as I know it is not possible (maybe somewhere in area 51 . . .) So what we are left with are contemporary photos and videos to look at. What about museum aircraft one could ask? Well after Thunderbird years of service some of them where converted for other use or went back to regular service, some eventually ending up in museums and looking at them shows that several post-Thunderbird modifications have been made including as Ben mentioned replacing complete heat shield panels on the tail underside with no trace of where the smoke generator tubes where located. Would this also apply to replacing a damaged complete stabilizer surface? Ground crews could answer those questions and individual aircraft logs. Chances are for this??? On the latest photos you have shared of 66-0294 it is obviously visible that there are no “fish tail” reinforcements on the top surface. But have a look at the bottom of the stabilizers. They are there on the bottom surface!!! WOW again! If one looks at FineMolds box cover photo of No.1 aircraft which is supposedly taken in Germany in 1971 the “fish tail” is there on the top surface. Now this is why I am saying that we would need a time machine to go back to 1969-1973 period and have a closer look at every aircraft they had. The only thing one can do if he wishes to make a really authentic scale representation built from the FineMolds kit is to look at one particular airframe, at one very specific time in its service. If we are lucky there will be some good photos of it. Concerning changes during or after Thunderbird service years. Have a look at the parachute container cover!!! On 66-0294 as it is now it is a “new” version (so to say), while when in service with Thunderbirds they had a period version of the cover which had one single hole higher up on its surface. The current cover has the “smiling” mouth cover and also patches which covered antennas. Probably it was taken from another airframe at one time in the near past. Could this have also happened to the stabilizers??? Once again thanks for contribution! Your help Mike is really appreciated!!!! Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ben Brown Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 @Mike J. Idacavage, thanks again for posting these fantastic pictures! Great view of the fuel tank vent tube and the drag chute door pull rod just ahead of the door. Regarding the stab reinforcements, I think in normal, non-T-Birds service, the stabs were reinforced as needed and they could have had the plates on top, bottom, or both. The stabs seem to have been changed out fairly often, I assume to repair damage or for whatever maintenance they needed. I have several photos of a particular 4th TFW F-4E where I know the approximate time frames each was taken. It goes from having the plates, to none, and back again. I guess the question is, were all of the T-Birds jets modded with the reinforcements at the same time or on an as-needed basis? There's no way of knowing if 0249 currently has the same stab that it had when it was with the T-Birds. At least one Blue Angels F-4J also had these plates added. I'm going to start up a new thread for the T-Birds and Blue Angels F-4s, so it will show up on forum and Google searches. That will hopefully save some folks from having to dig through a bunch of threads. Please add whatever you want to it. I'm most certainly not a fountain of knowledge on these jets! 😄 Ben Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 (edited) In exactly a weeks time, on weekend of 20th / 21st of April we will have the biggest European scale modelling competition at Moson in Hungary. I will be there on Saturday so feel free to stop me and have a chat about the FineMolds Phantoms or for that matter the brand new Thunderbirds version of it. That is my back pack with an exact replica that I made of one of the Starfighter C-2 ejection seats Remove Before Flight tags for the ejection D ring. Fortunately one of the my seats had the RBF in fairly good condition so it was easy to copy it. Sorry I will not have any real ejectionseats with me this time around, but at least will have the RBF on my back. : ) : ) : ) So feel free to tap on my shoulder and speak with me about kits, ejection seats or whatever. There is a chance that I will do a sit-in at one of the manufacturers workshop desks for a little quick kit building but the show is still so far away and who knows . . . One could ask what the hell am I talking about on an American forum about the Moson show? Here is a map of visitors from few years ago and not only North America but South America was also represented as well as the exactly opposite corner of the world. I know this year we should have again visitors, a group of 5 from Japan also! So . . . See you at the show!!! : ) : ) : ) Best regards Gabor Edited April 13 by ya-gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MoFo Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 10 hours ago, ya-gabor said: Holy cow, that's cool! Lots of the 'usual suspects', but I'm really impressed by the particularly far-flung places. Madagascar? Mauritius? Niue? Mongolia? Kazakhstan? Ethiopia? And apparently the Pope came, too, since you've got a pin in Vatican City's flag. 😀 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted April 14 Share Posted April 14 8 hours ago, MoFo said: Holy cow, that's cool! Lots of the 'usual suspects', but I'm really impressed by the particularly far-flung places. Madagascar? Mauritius? Niue? Mongolia? Kazakhstan? Ethiopia? And apparently the Pope came, too, since you've got a pin in Vatican City's flag. 😀 Hi MoFo, I am sure there are some visitors who think it is a good joke to have a pin in unthinkable countries. But most of the pins are real visitors from the given place. I know it was so with those South and North American visitors. Few years ago I was standing in front of the map to be surprised that there were visitors from South Korea. We were talking that this must be wrong. A young guy behind us responded that it is he. He really came specially for the show and was not just a tourist visiting Europe and dropping in by chance. No, his friends told him that there is a big show in Europe worth visiting so he came. I think he was doing figures. Madagascar? Not sure about that one. But who knows. I am not sure about Vatican either but there are a lot of Italians around, even modelling clubs coming as a group. Every year I take a photo of the maps (World, Europe), it will be this year also. Usually there is a big Europe map so modellers can be more exact from where they arrived from. Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted April 15 Share Posted April 15 Until ten years back the usual practice was to have just a map of Hungary and one of Europe. But with more and more foreign visitors arriving from further away it was changed to a World map and a European. The European map back then shows well where modellers came from. Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted April 15 Share Posted April 15 (edited) Getting back to the FIneMolds Phantoms. As shown earlier the Thunderbirds Phantoms were early production and back in the days when they were operational with the display team the parachute container cover was still the early version. The kit gives you standard F-4E with the “late” version tail cone (Sprue H), with the “smiley” openings on them. Ether one simply fills and sands the holes as well as the antenna panels on them. And to finish simply drills a hole further up to represent what they looked like in late 60’s early 70’s. Or the alternative is to source the tail cone from FineMolds F-4C, F-4D or F-4J kit which have this early version tail cone on Sprue P. Best regards Gabor Edited April 15 by ya-gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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